On the youtube version below - it is at about :45-:47 into the song. My ear hears something not very tight at all. Is is the guitar, bass, drums, or all?

Please help me solve this.

I obsess over Led Zeppelin every couple of years. I love that each album is different from the others.

You've found two seconds of playing in Black Dog that you consider not tight and so Led Zep aren't great?

I didn't hear anything that seemed out of step with what came before or after that time frame. Besides, this is rock music: sloppiness can be a virtue.
[Edited 8/9/09 3:06am]

Good morning all.

The great thing about "Black Dog" (and some other Zep tunes) is that it's "behind the beat". It's hard to describe..but musicians know. It's like falling off the edge but jumping right back on.

I hear what you mean... I find it annoying too. Guitar is being played off the beat...
[Edited 8/9/09 6:55am]

bobsteezy said:

Sounds fine to me, but really too many girls have danced and took off their tops for it to matter.

Black Dog is from the 4th album right?

I need to blow the dust from that
and give it a spin soon

coolcat said:

"A little behind the beat... just enough to turn you on?"

There are a couple of reasons to try and slam Led Zeppelin but this isn't one of them.

They are intentionally playing in 2 different time signatures (drums vs guitar/bass).
If you're truly interested, do some research on John Paul Jones who has explained how he came up with the riff in a few interviews.



tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

I am - thank you.

The title of this thread was certainly sensationalized by me to elicit a response.

I have respect for Led Zeppelin. I think Kashmir is brilliant. The album Black Dog is on was the first real Rock N Roll album I ever bought with my own money as a kid. Stairway - I love.

I enjoy precise timing in music - but I am not opposed to being a little behind the beat (just enough to turn you on - as DakutiusMaximus pointed out). But I have always truly wondered what was up with that part.

It annoys me when some of my "rocker friends" dismiss Prince in comparison to some of these iconic (Led Zep) cats. I say to myself - P would never be 'off-time' like that.

Anywhooo - I will read the interview.

Thanks for all the responses. ...And Cool Cat - thank you for acknowledging that you hear it too. I rarely question my ears.
[Edited 8/10/09 3:31am]

Here is one article offering some insight...http://www.blender.com/gu...k-dog.html

"Ensconced in Headley Grange’s vast hallway, he perfected the song’s deceptively simple time-signature variations (4/4 with a 5/4 variation), inspired in part by his knowledge of Little Richard’s “Keep a Knockin’.”"

mynameisnotsusan said:

NO NO NO

ORCHESTRA IN KASHMIR A LITTLE OFF TOO

BUT THAT WHAT POOK LOVE!

bobsteezy said:

I agree.

I have their albums, I enjoy their music and I would call myself a fan BUT their musical ability has been overrated over the years, for sure. They did have some sloppy moments. The whole "tight but loose" thing that gets used to describe them is a bit of a misnomer, for me. I think they just weren't that tight.

In my opinion, the problem with Black Dog is that the riff just doesn't work. It just doesn't flow right to a natural tempo. It seems to trip up over itself and sounds clumsy and awkward. It's no wonder Bonham struggled to find a beat thatwould fit the riff.

I have heard live versions and they play it a little differently - the timing seems a but more natural and it's as if they corrected some of the faults of the recorded version. But still...

rocknrolldave said:

My favorite band ever and they werent that tight when they rocked out. On the more difficult tracks ironically they pulled it together seamlessly. Custard Pie and Sick Again have the same recklessness to them.
[Edited 8/10/09 4:08am]

^ It's true - they managed to pull off the trickier stuff!

wait, are you sayin' Led Zeppelin had no rhythm?

.
[Edited 8/11/09 9:49am]

theAudience is right, it's obviously intentional, but I have to agree with the OP that I never thought it sounded quite right. It doesn't sound weird to me, it sounds off.

Seems like an idea that was probably fun the first time they played it but should have been left on the cutting room floor.

Didn't prevent the song from being a classic, however, so what do I know?

can someone help me count the beats for the song? it's driving me nuts.

theAudience said:

This is awesome. The fact that they could ever pull it off even in one segment of this song is just amazing. I hear what's being said but I always felt exactly what you are saying even without knowing this was the intent.

rocknrolldave said:

I think it's interesting how so many people need music to have a specific structure and if it aint technically in line, the song falls apart. This, to me, is one of the most exciting aspects of music. The possibility of pulling back, as someone said, from the edge.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

The Rolling Stones built a career around that fact.

They play some of their songs so fast live that it makes it almost impossible for them to sound "tight" even if the recorded versions were relatively in the pocket.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

This is totally unrelated but I feel very similar about them. They way Prpince used Wendy and Lisa in his music, vocally. It doesn't take any connoiseure to hear that they aren't Patti Labelle and Chaka Khan But I have always felt that part of the reason for using them as lesser vocal talents was a form of adding "funk" to the mix.

When I say funk I don't mean in the most notable term of funk music, but it always felt like what is being explained here in the off timing of that portion of the song. Intentional and for the purpose of adding an edgy element to what would otherwise be very forthright, edgy being that WTF is this but it works kind of thing

bobsteezy said:

On/Off time depends on the type of music you're playin. When you're playin R&B you're lookin for the 1....with Jazz there's usually a delayed backbeat, and with Rock N Roll there's a 4/4 time signature....

diamondpearl1 said:

This is why i consider them visionaries and genius. They came on the heels of rock being perfected in this fashion and switched it up, giving rock and roll whole new levels that musicans could reach. It didn't hurt that they had a real live wicked witch fronting the band

If anyone's interesting in music with strange time signatures, check out the instrumental band: Planet X.