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PrintableOkay, I had not heard "Unit Structures" in years (might have been 12 years or something since I've heard it the last time). So I just downloaded (yes, stole) it from the web and gave it a listen.
How is this stuff "random" to anyone's ears? It's far much more musical than most jazz-based free improvisation stuff out there. The sonic imprint of the material is pretty typical for jazz of the later half of the 60s. | |
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novabrkr said: Okay, I had not heard "Unit Structures" in years (might have been 12 years or something since I've heard it the last time). So I just downloaded (yes, stole) it from the web and gave it a listen.
How is this stuff "random" to anyone's ears? It's far much more musical than most jazz-based free improvisation stuff out there. The sonic imprint of the material is pretty typical for jazz of the later half of the 60s. That's what I'm asking people to explain. 
Honest to god... it sounds random to me. It sounds to me like musicians playing random notes... can you break it down for me? | |
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Try this next:
or this: | |
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novabrkr said: Try this next:
sounds awful to me. 
or this: sounds to me like aa bunch of kids picking up instruments for the first time and randomly playing notes... maybe that's the point. I really don't get it.
I see your point I think... the Unit Structures stuff is more musical than this... It's still random to me though. | |
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Well, you can pick up the same instruments yourself and make a recording with them where you play them randomly. Then compare the results to what someone like Evan Parker is doing and you should hear the difference pretty easily.
It might take some time to get used to listening to more abstract music, but trust me, once you've been listening to it for 15 years or so you don't even notice whether you're listening to Merzbow or Madonna. | |
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novabrkr said: Okay, I had not heard "Unit Structures" in years (might have been 12 years or something since I've heard it the last time). So I just downloaded (yes, stole) it from the web and gave it a listen.
How is this stuff "random" to anyone's ears? It's far much more musical than most jazz-based free improvisation stuff out there. The sonic imprint of the material is pretty typical for jazz of the later half of the 60s. Obviously it's not random banging, but if you don't get it then you don't get it. I didn't get jazz when I was younger. I had to listen for a long time (with some faith that those guys DID know what they were doing). It's like saying "can't you hear that Chinese is a language with a specific set of rules?" No, I don't understand Chinese. But once you do understand, it's fairly obvious that, yes, it's not the same thing 3 year olds banging on pots & pans. My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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NDRU said: novabrkr said: Okay, I had not heard "Unit Structures" in years (might have been 12 years or something since I've heard it the last time). So I just downloaded (yes, stole) it from the web and gave it a listen.
How is this stuff "random" to anyone's ears? It's far much more musical than most jazz-based free improvisation stuff out there. The sonic imprint of the material is pretty typical for jazz of the later half of the 60s. Obviously it's not random banging, but if you don't get it then you don't get it. I didn't get jazz when I was younger. I had to listen for a long time (with some faith that those guys DID know what they were doing). It's like saying "can't you hear that Chinese is a language with a specific set of rules?" No, I don't understand Chinese. But once you do understand, it's fairly obvious that, yes, it's not the same thing 3 year olds banging on pots & pans. Yeah, but chinese can be taught and explained... is this music the same? | |
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NDRU said: And later, stuff like Bitches Brew seems even more like unplanned jams, but then there are moments where the band all comes together at the same time, and it is clear that there is still structure.
I was watching a Robben Ford interview (guitar player who very briefly played with Miles) and he said many of their songs were one chord songs. But the harmony in Miles's band was richer than in Harrison's, so they made it work. A one chord song certainly lends itself to jamming. Nice picks. Another one from that period... ...Right Off from A Tribute To Jack Johnson Supposedly, John McLaughlin, Billy Cobham & Michael Henderson were jamming in the studio while waiting for Miles Davis to show up. Herbie Hancock just happened to be in the vicinity and ended up playing Farfisa organ. Miles shows up about 2 minutes into the tune and basically blows the roof off the MF. tA  Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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theAudience said: NDRU said: And later, stuff like Bitches Brew seems even more like unplanned jams, but then there are moments where the band all comes together at the same time, and it is clear that there is still structure.
I was watching a Robben Ford interview (guitar player who very briefly played with Miles) and he said many of their songs were one chord songs. But the harmony in Miles's band was richer than in Harrison's, so they made it work. A one chord song certainly lends itself to jamming. Nice picks. Another one from that period... ...Right Off from A Tribute To Jack Johnson Supposedly, John McLaughlin, Billy Cobham & Michael Henderson were jamming in the studio while waiting for Miles Davis to show up. Herbie Hancock just happened to be in the vicinity and ended up playing Farfisa organ. Miles shows up about 2 minutes into the tune and basically blows the roof off the MF. tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 the story about how Hancock ended up this record is funny | |
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coolcat said: NDRU said: Obviously it's not random banging, but if you don't get it then you don't get it. I didn't get jazz when I was younger. I had to listen for a long time (with some faith that those guys DID know what they were doing). It's like saying "can't you hear that Chinese is a language with a specific set of rules?" No, I don't understand Chinese. But once you do understand, it's fairly obvious that, yes, it's not the same thing 3 year olds banging on pots & pans. Yeah, but chinese can be taught and explained... is this music the same? I think so, but the best way to understand a language is to listen to it & speak it. Surround yourself with it. Leaning a few words & phrases doesn't make you fluent. And I think the music is the same. You listen long enough you'll understand it. Not in the same context as pop music, but operating under its own rules, just like Chinese operates with a different set of rules than English. My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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theAudience said: NDRU said: And later, stuff like Bitches Brew seems even more like unplanned jams, but then there are moments where the band all comes together at the same time, and it is clear that there is still structure.
I was watching a Robben Ford interview (guitar player who very briefly played with Miles) and he said many of their songs were one chord songs. But the harmony in Miles's band was richer than in Harrison's, so they made it work. A one chord song certainly lends itself to jamming. Nice picks. Another one from that period... ...Right Off from A Tribute To Jack Johnson Supposedly, John McLaughlin, Billy Cobham & Michael Henderson were jamming in the studio while waiting for Miles Davis to show up. Herbie Hancock just happened to be in the vicinity and ended up playing Farfisa organ. Miles shows up about 2 minutes into the tune and basically blows the roof off the MF. tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 That's probably one of my favorites of the period. My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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NDRU said: novabrkr said: Hmmm. I actually find it a bit odd that people would feel relieved upon been granted the information that musicians like Cecil Taylor actually "knew" what they were doing. Does the music somehow start sounding different to people's ears once they'll find out that the performer has, e.g., attended Juilliard?
I don't think it's so much relief, but if you don't understand what an artist is doing, it makes it easier to take the time to figure it out if there is evidence that they're not just banging randomly, but have some background--either julliard, or miles playing bebop before his fusion years, or picasso painting realistic stuff as a kid before his cubist period. My stressing this point was to combat the notion that many (who don't listen to this music) have when listening to Avant-Garde/Free Jazz, that the artists don't know what they're doing. "They're just making noise." Not that there's anything wrong with "just making noise" sometimes I guess. It's just a faulty assumption that there's always nothing more behind it. tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 "Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all." | |
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theAudience said: NDRU said: I don't think it's so much relief, but if you don't understand what an artist is doing, it makes it easier to take the time to figure it out if there is evidence that they're not just banging randomly, but have some background--either julliard, or miles playing bebop before his fusion years, or picasso painting realistic stuff as a kid before his cubist period. My stressing this point was to combat the notion that many (who don't listen to this music) have when listening to Avant-Garde/Free Jazz, that the artists don't know what they're doing. "They're just making noise." Not that there's anything wrong with "just making noise" sometimes I guess. It's just a faulty assumption that there's always nothing more behind it. tA Tribal Disorder
http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431 I think this is an important point... because if there was nothing more behind it, I honestly wouldn't bother listening... Maybe other people would enjoy it regardless... But that's not me. The faith that there's some language there that I'm just not getting yet... keeps me interested in hearing more till I get some understanding... | |
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NDRU said: coolcat said: Yeah, but chinese can be taught and explained... is this music the same? I think so, but the best way to understand a language is to listen to it & speak it. Surround yourself with it. Leaning a few words & phrases doesn't make you fluent. And I think the music is the same. You listen long enough you'll understand it. Not in the same context as pop music, but operating under its own rules, just like Chinese operates with a different set of rules than English. 
Yeah, I mean the belief that there's something more to this than I'm hearing right now, is what keeps me interested... I just don't want to eventually find out that there's really nothing more behind this, and I was just having my chain pulled. | |
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