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PrintableAs a musician/arranger/conductor, you're usually/mostly able to lay/point-out specific harmonies/notes/rhythms which other musicians have to play. Tell me then what the funk MJ is doing in the given examples below :
bboy87 said: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/401331-robmix-tell-us-about-mj.html
Some random memories: One morning MJ came in with a new song he had written overnight. We called in a guitar player, and Michael sang every note of every chord to him. "here's the first chord first note, second note, third note. Here's the second chord first note, second note, third note", etc., etc. We then witnessed him giving the most heartfelt and profound vocal performance, live in the control room through an SM57. He would sing us an entire string arrangement, every part. Steve Porcaro once told me he witnessed MJ doing that with the string section in the room. Had it all in his head, harmony and everything. Not just little eight bar loop ideas. he would actually sing the entire arrangement into a micro-cassette recorder complete with stops and fills. His beatboxing was without parallel, and his time (<--- timing ?...(Shango) was ridiculous. His sense of harmony was incredible. Never a bad note, no tuning, even his breathing was perfectly in time. I was assisting Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis while they recorded the background vocals for "Scream" with MJ and Janet. The two of them singing together was amazing. Super tight, no bad notes. One part after another. When they took a break they sang the showtunes they used to sing as kids. Again, perfect harmony. Mj refused to sing the "stop f*ckin' with me part" because he would NOT curse. I was the tape op for the recording of the background vocals on "Stranger in Moscow". Scared the hell out me. Michael was dropping in and out on syllables, rearranging the notes and timing as he put it down. No Pro Tools at the time, just 2" tape, and my punches. The last weekend of recording on HIStory he came to me and Eddie Delena, and said "I'm sorry, but I don't think any of us are going to sleep this weekend. There's a lot to get done, and we have to go to Bernie on Monday morning". He stayed at the studio the entire time, singing, and mixing. I got to spend a couple quiet moments with him during that time. We talked about John Lennon one night as he was gearing up to sing the last vocal of the record - the huge ad libs at the end of "earth song". I told him the story of John singing "twist and shout" while being sick, and though most people think he was screaming for effect, it was actually his voice giving out. He loved it, and then went in to sing his heart out. . . . I was lucky enough over the course of 3 years to have access to the multitrack masters for tour prep, videos, and archive purposes. To be able to pull these tracks apart was a huge lesson in production, and songwriting. A chance to look into the minds of geniuses. Of all the records I've worked on, MJJ was the only company to give platinum award records. One day we just all sat in the studio listening to his catalog with him for inspiration. He loved the process, he loved the work. --- It was amazing how he'd come in with some song he liked and want to capture something about it - the energy, the tone, the mood. He was really into "Owner of a Lonely Heart" too. So when Yes came to town, I made sure everyone knew it, and we got Trevor Rabin to come down and play some stuff on "They Don't Care About Us". That was one of the really fun parts about working with MJ. You could call anyone and get them down there. We needed a funk guitar player, and some names were being tossed about. I finally said, hey what about Nile Rogers. Michael was excited for that because they had toured together in the 70's. Of course Nile played some of the funkiest sh*t ever . . . . however, Michael had a very specific part in mind for the song "Money". BTW, strat into a DI, into the SSL, straight to tape. Nothing else. --- Michael and Bruce were both nostalgic, and maybe a bit superstitious. We needed to add choir to a couple songs while we were in L.A., so they immediately said it had to be recorded at Westlake D, where "Man in the Mirror" was recorded. Bruce sent me over there with his prized M49's. Everyone on the session was like" he know he's never let them out of his sight, and no one has ever put them up or taken them down but him". Yes, I was scared . . . . . Unfortunately, they crapped out on us halfway through the session, and we had to switch to C12's. But both sets of mics were put through Bruce's 1084's. No compression of course to 2" tape. We always set up Andre Crouche's choir in a circle, the mics in the center in omni. I think Bruce has detailed his choir setup on GS before. [Edited 7/22/09 15:18pm] | |
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NDRU said: Imago said: I didn't say it was a bad thing. All my posts have been framed within the actual spirit of the question posed by the thread. MJ is a media-star. His video presence is essential to the level of commercial success that he has had. Folks who harp on record sales going through the roof since his death should bear in mind the media coverage was the result of his use of various forms of media. This helped him go from being a successful sing-along pop act to a very successful one. Werther you're into that or not is of no concern of mine, nor did I say it was a bad thing. Inferring that from my posts would require a healthy dose of conjecture. exactly, it's definitely not a bad thing, it means he understood how to get his music across clearly to the masses. It's something he does better than Prince without question. And there are things Prince does better than Michael, too. But when you're getting your music across to the masses like he did you're probably not being as innovative as a Miles Davis or a Schoenberg. Those guys are studied for innovations in music--notes 'n' such. Micheal is studied as a pop phenomenon. There can't be innovation within pop music ? I don't get that. The main teamwork of MJ, Quincy and Bruce Swedien (besides all the studio-musicians and other technicians) was to achieve one of the best "sonic-sounding" (quoted by Bruce) pop records in order to reach a wide audience as possible, and in which they have proved to be succesful. I guess such an achievement is easily undermined and obviously seen as a cheap consumption-product for a market of fickle targetgroups. Yes, the video's have helped with the whole media-promotion, but the mix of everyone's input of intensive preparation/studio-work (major changes of mixing one track a day during the crucial end-process in order to get the album ready for final printing/distributing) for the project is easily forgotten. | |
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Shango said: As a musician/arranger/conductor, you're usually/mostly able to lay/point-out specific harmonies/notes/rhythms which other musicians have to play. Tell me then what the funk MJ is doing in the given examples below :
bboy87 said: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/401331-robmix-tell-us-about-mj.html
Some random memories: One morning MJ came in with a new song he had written overnight. We called in a guitar player, and Michael sang every note of every chord to him. "here's the first chord first note, second note, third note. Here's the second chord first note, second note, third note", etc., etc. We then witnessed him giving the most heartfelt and profound vocal performance, live in the control room through an SM57. He would sing us an entire string arrangement, every part. Steve Porcaro once told me he witnessed MJ doing that with the string section in the room. Had it all in his head, harmony and everything. Not just little eight bar loop ideas. he would actually sing the entire arrangement into a micro-cassette recorder complete with stops and fills. His beatboxing was without parallel, and his time (<--- timing ?...(Shango) was ridiculous. His sense of harmony was incredible. Never a bad note, no tuning, even his breathing was perfectly in time. I was assisting Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis while they recorded the background vocals for "Scream" with MJ and Janet. The two of them singing together was amazing. Super tight, no bad notes. One part after another. When they took a break they sang the showtunes they used to sing as kids. Again, perfect harmony. Mj refused to sing the "stop f*ckin' with me part" because he would NOT curse. I was the tape op for the recording of the background vocals on "Stranger in Moscow". Scared the hell out me. Michael was dropping in and out on syllables, rearranging the notes and timing as he put it down. No Pro Tools at the time, just 2" tape, and my punches. The last weekend of recording on HIStory he came to me and Eddie Delena, and said "I'm sorry, but I don't think any of us are going to sleep this weekend. There's a lot to get done, and we have to go to Bernie on Monday morning". He stayed at the studio the entire time, singing, and mixing. I got to spend a couple quiet moments with him during that time. We talked about John Lennon one night as he was gearing up to sing the last vocal of the record - the huge ad libs at the end of "earth song". I told him the story of John singing "twist and shout" while being sick, and though most people think he was screaming for effect, it was actually his voice giving out. He loved it, and then went in to sing his heart out. . . . I was lucky enough over the course of 3 years to have access to the multitrack masters for tour prep, videos, and archive purposes. To be able to pull these tracks apart was a huge lesson in production, and songwriting. A chance to look into the minds of geniuses. Of all the records I've worked on, MJJ was the only company to give platinum award records. One day we just all sat in the studio listening to his catalog with him for inspiration. He loved the process, he loved the work. --- It was amazing how he'd come in with some song he liked and want to capture something about it - the energy, the tone, the mood. He was really into "Owner of a Lonely Heart" too. So when Yes came to town, I made sure everyone knew it, and we got Trevor Rabin to come down and play some stuff on "They Don't Care About Us". That was one of the really fun parts about working with MJ. You could call anyone and get them down there. We needed a funk guitar player, and some names were being tossed about. I finally said, hey what about Nile Rogers. Michael was excited for that because they had toured together in the 70's. Of course Nile played some of the funkiest sh*t ever . . . . however, Michael had a very specific part in mind for the song "Money". BTW, strat into a DI, into the SSL, straight to tape. Nothing else. --- Michael and Bruce were both nostalgic, and maybe a bit superstitious. We needed to add choir to a couple songs while we were in L.A., so they immediately said it had to be recorded at Westlake D, where "Man in the Mirror" was recorded. Bruce sent me over there with his prized M49's. Everyone on the session was like" he know he's never let them out of his sight, and no one has ever put them up or taken them down but him". Yes, I was scared . . . . . Unfortunately, they crapped out on us halfway through the session, and we had to switch to C12's. But both sets of mics were put through Bruce's 1084's. No compression of course to 2" tape. We always set up Andre Crouche's choir in a circle, the mics in the center in omni. I think Bruce has detailed his choir setup on GS before. [Edited 7/22/09 15:18pm] oh man you know that shit will be ignored like a dirty street beggar. I mean there are people on the org who claimed Quincy wrote Billie Jean | |
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Shango said: NDRU said: exactly, it's definitely not a bad thing, it means he understood how to get his music across clearly to the masses. It's something he does better than Prince without question. And there are things Prince does better than Michael, too. But when you're getting your music across to the masses like he did you're probably not being as innovative as a Miles Davis or a Schoenberg. Those guys are studied for innovations in music--notes 'n' such. Micheal is studied as a pop phenomenon. There can't be innovation within pop music ? I don't get that. The main teamwork of MJ, Quincy and Bruce Swedien (besides all the studio-musicians and other technicians) was to achieve one of the best "sonic-sounding" (quoted by Bruce) pop records in order to reach a wide audience as possible, and in which they have proved to be succesful. I guess such an achievement is easily undermined and obviously seen as a cheap consumption-product for a market of fickle targetgroups. Yes, the video's have helped with the whole media-promotion, but the mix of everyone's input of intensive preparation/studio-work (major changes of mixing one track a day during the crucial end-process in order to get the album ready for final printing/distributing) for the project is easily forgotten. I didn't say there couldn't be innovation within pop music. And I never denied that the production is top notch on MJ records and probably innovative for the times. But I don't think the music itself is particularly innovative. My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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Timmy84 said: dseann said: Foreigner and Luther Vandross. R. Kelly did it throughout the entire 90's even did it for Michael "You Are Not Alone". [Edited 7/22/09 6:04am] Marvin's "Sanctified Lady" had a choir in it.  Keep throwing them out there when you remember them, this has been practiced in the recording industry for decades. | |
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seeingvoices12 said: Timmy84 said: Marvin's "Sanctified Lady" had a choir in it. Yeah, I love marvin, however There is something about Will you be there that I cannot explain, the melody, The way he sings, the atmosphere of the song, the last spoken part of the song, and its impact, its easily one of his best songs and the best track on dangerous, A stroke of genius I don't think anyone can dispute that it was one of his best tracks and one of my favorites, however it's just wrong to say that no one could have lead a choir like he did. Patti LaBelle, Whitney Houston and Luther Vandross did a much better job of it in their efforts. | |
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Timmy84 said: dseann said: Foreigner and Luther Vandross. R. Kelly did it throughout the entire 90's even did it for Michael "You Are Not Alone". [Edited 7/22/09 6:04am] Marvin's "Sanctified Lady" had a choir in it. Stephanie Mills "I Feel Good" had a beautiful choir in it as well. | |
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seeingvoices12 said: For Anyone on says that Mj is NOT a musician, I say one thing, LAY OFF THE DRUGS
 ..DUh.And the instruments he played were?  | |
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dseann said: seeingvoices12 said: For Anyone on says that Mj is NOT a musician, I say one thing, LAY OFF THE DRUGS
..DUh.And the instruments he played were? Figments.....of the imagination. | |
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Graycap23 said: dseann said: And the instruments he played were? Figments.....of the imagination.  | |
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Graycap23 said: I tried get thru Mj's cd the past couple of weekends and something became very obvious. Mj's music does not hold up very well without the videos. My question is, where would Mj be, without his videos and the level he took the video 2?
I watched a John Landis interview and he said that Thriller was already the best-selling album of all time by the time that they filmed it so Michael would still be the KING OF POP! | |
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StillDirrty said: Graycap23 said: I tried get thru Mj's cd the past couple of weekends and something became very obvious. Mj's music does not hold up very well without the videos. My question is, where would Mj be, without his videos and the level he took the video 2?
I watched a John Landis interview and he said that Thriller was already the best-selling album of all time by the time that they filmed it so Michael would still be the KING OF POP! So Thriller which came out in 1983 was the best selling album of all time in 1983? | |
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I'm kind of surprised somebody went "there" with this, but he would have still ranked high. MJ knew how to hold a note and knew how to use his voice, especially in ways that had never been done or thought of before. My favorite album is BAD, but my favorite song off that album next to Smooth Criminal is "Speed Demon" and there wasn't an official video for that besides what was done on the Moonwalker movie. I love that song, and I still considered him a superstar.  I will forever love and miss you...my sweet Prince. | |
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Graycap23 said: StillDirrty said: I watched a John Landis interview and he said that Thriller was already the best-selling album of all time by the time that they filmed it so Michael would still be the KING OF POP! So Thriller which came out in 1983 was the best selling album of all time in 1983? I have no idea. I wasn't even born yet but that's what John Landis said. He said that Thriller was filmed a year later. I had no idea that it was filmed that late. | |
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SoulAlive said:[quote] Imago said: He was a pop artist and there's nothing wrong with that  He didn't need to be Miles Davis.I think Miles liked his music too because he covered Human Nature. | |
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StillDirrty said: Imago said: He was a pop artist and there's nothing wrong with that He didn't need to be Miles Davis.I think Miles liked his music too because he covered Human Nature. Miles went through a period of covering pop songs, Cyndi Lauper, Scritti Politti, and I guess Human Nature as well. Good songs, but not his most innovative period. My Legacy
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Graycap23 said: StillDirrty said: I watched a John Landis interview and he said that Thriller was already the best-selling album of all time by the time that they filmed it so Michael would still be the KING OF POP! So Thriller which came out in 1983 was the best selling album of all time in 1983? Actually Thriller came out in '82. | |
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dseann said: Graycap23 said: So Thriller which came out in 1983 was the best selling album of all time in 1983? Actually Thriller came out in '82. lol.....ok. Fall of '82 and it was the best selling album of all time by Dec of 1983? | |
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Graycap23 said: dseann said: Actually Thriller came out in '82. lol.....ok. Fall of '82 and it was the best selling album of all time by Dec of 1983? | |
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Graycap23 said: dseann said: Actually Thriller came out in '82. lol.....ok. Fall of '82 and it was the best selling album of all time by Dec of 1983? I think Landis must've meant a year after the "Thriller" video. Thriller was the best-selling album of both '83 and '84 and it was recognized by the Guinness Book of Records in '85 as the best-selling album ever. "Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis | |
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Graycap23 said: dseann said: Actually Thriller came out in '82. lol.....ok. Fall of '82 and it was the best selling album of all time by Dec of 1983? I think it was only in early 84 that it was recognized as the biggest of all time. So in Dec it was probably already assumed that it was already or that it was inevitable. My Legacy
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Graycap23 said: dseann said: Actually Thriller came out in '82. lol.....ok. Fall of '82 and it was the best selling album of all time by Dec of 1983? By the time the video came out, the album had been on the charts for 50 weeks, 48 of those weeks, it had been in the top 10 for 48 of those weeks and #1 of 21 non consecutive weeks. 2 weeks after the video premiered, the album spent another 16 weeks at #1 sidenote: Off The Wall debuted at #48 and didn't get to its peak position (#3) until 25 weeks later So OTW came out August 10, 1979 and it didn't get to #3 until February 1980 when the title track came out as a single "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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bboy87 said: sidenote: Off The Wall debuted at #48 and didn't get to its peak position (#3) until 25 weeks later So OTW came out August 10, 1979 and it didn't get to #3 until February 1980 when the title track came out as a single Yeah ... 
I think it's great that singles for one album could be spreaded over such a long period. Sign of the times i guess lol. Almost unusual to happen these days. | |
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Shango said: bboy87 said: sidenote: Off The Wall debuted at #48 and didn't get to its peak position (#3) until 25 weeks later So OTW came out August 10, 1979 and it didn't get to #3 until February 1980 when the title track came out as a single Yeah ...
I think it's great that singles for one album could be spreaded over such a long period. Sign of the times i guess lol. Almost unusual to happen these days. yeah, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough came out in July, Rock With You in November, and the title track in February "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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seeingvoices12 said: Imago said: I've read that sentence 3 times and it still doesn't make any sense. The statement is crystal clear, its just you don't Want to understand it. no it's not | |
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bboy87 said: Shango said: Yeah ...
I think it's great that singles for one album could be spreaded over such a long period. Sign of the times i guess lol. Almost unusual to happen these days. yeah, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough came out in July, Rock With You in November, and the title track in February Yup lol. Another guess is that maybe the expanded Destiny Tour might've helped keeping the charts/sales up ? I think that's how it worked with the Victory and Bad Tour. | |
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Shango said: bboy87 said: yeah, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough came out in July, Rock With You in November, and the title track in February Yup lol. Another guess is that maybe the expanded Destiny Tour might've helped keeping the charts/sales up ? I think that's how it worked with the Victory and Bad Tour. During BAD and for a part of Dangerous they worked singles like clockwork, each one being released in 2 month intervals. It was a brilliant marketing as one single started to descend the charts the next was climbing. These days it seems singles are released in rapid fire succession they don't have time to breathe. Swa "I'm not human I'm a dove, I'm ur conscience. I am love" | |
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StillDirrty said:[quote] SoulAlive said: Imago said: He was a pop artist and there's nothing wrong with that He didn't need to be Miles Davis.I think Miles liked his music too because he covered Human Nature. True 
Some people dimiss certain artists because they are "pop artists",but I don't look at music that way.I take good music wherever I can find it.Frank Zappa was much more "innovative" than MJ,but I would take 'Off The Wall' over anything that Zaapa has released.It's not important to me whether or not MJ's music will be "studied" by future generations. | |
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Here's what he would have done with two music videos in particular. The Jacksons didn't really promote there Victory album. But here's one thing if the Jacksons and the Rolling Stones would have got together and did a video for "State of Shock" it would have went to number one in the summer of 94' (was #3Pop/#4 RnB.) Also, "Torture" may have entered the top ten on the pop charts (#17Pop.)
Also, the album would have charted higher as well (#4 Pop/topped the RnB charts) PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever ----- Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It | |
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Also, "Torture" may have entered the top ten on the pop charts (#17Pop.)
 "Torture" has a video:
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