Graycap23 said:

Great , jump on the "floon" bandwagon like certain orgers here , I find this very very very childish.

seeingvoices12 said:

U just called a singer a musician.....what else am I supposed 2 think?

Imago said:

The statement is crystal clear, its just you don't Want to understand it.

Graycap23 said:

Re-Read what I have posted please, don't put words into my mouth , I said MJ, of course MJ is not just a singer.

AlexdeParis said:

I think the music would have been very successful without videos. I think the better question is what would it have been without his performing.

But even without his performing I think it would have been successful.

But I think we can all agree with what you said--that the videos definitely played a big part. With people like that--Beatles, Elvis, Eminem--who cause such a big stir, there is cultural timing involved beyond any possible merits of their music.

Graycap23 said:

this is a totally different issue, but I don't see why a singer is not a musician.

The voice is an instrument, it can sing an Ab9 arpeggio just like a horn.

It sounds like the same argument that someone who rides a bike is not an athlete, but flipped upside down.

NDRU said:

A musician plays an INSTRUMENT.

seeingvoices12 said:

NDRU said:

I have enough from people downplaying michael jackson's legacy,calling him a pop star, Or just a singer, treating him like puppet who doesn't know what to do in the studio, enough of that already,its getting ridiculous, I mean, On the org only I read these kind of things, someone even said here before that MJ can't sing , Of course I see those comments on the org only.

Graycap23 said:

Graycap23 said:

It's true that people who play instruments are musicians, but the definition I just looked up for musician is "one who composes, conducts, or performs music"

I do understand where you're coming from, since most singers are only singing from instinct (it's pretty tough to call Britney a musician), they haven't studied music, but then half the people who play instruments haven't studied music either!

I think you're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand

NDRU said:

Yeah..

Playing an instrument is a Plus for any artist who can write and composes music brilliantly, Not every single person who picks a instrument is a musician, stevie and prince are musicians since they play instruments very well , write, compose and produce their stuff, would anyone call justin timberlake a musician? since last time i checked he was playing piano on stage and madonna was playing guitar on stage, are those musicians too?

MJ was a musician because he wrote and composed most of his songs, Not lifeless songs ,but songs we still hear till this day, Timless classics.
[Edited 7/22/09 12:20pm]

NDRU said:

Ask most PROFESSIONS and the wil tell u their is quite a difference between the 2. There in no arbitrary line. It's clearly defined. Are people who play instruments singers? No.

Graycap23 said:

They're definitely different. A singer is a specific type of musician. A singer is not a piano player, but they're both musicians.

Why would a word like musician be limited to using some external man-made instrument of some sort? I think the word sounds pretty general, like "someone who makes music?"

But I doubt I'll convince you.

NDRU said:

I've been both all of my life and they in NO WAY compare.

Graycap23 said:

I'm not saying they're the same any more than playing drums is like playing saxophone. But just look at the word "musician." Where does it imply anything outside of "music" & "person who does?"

Isn't singing a way to make music?

NDRU said:

Giving a shot is medical.....does that make a nurse a Doctor?

Graycap23 said:

but those are specific terms, like piano player & singer. How about a general one like "healthcare practitioner?"

NDRU said:

No.....singing is a part of a music project. It takes INSTRUMENTS 2 make music.
U can make instrumental records all day long. An acapella record has no MUSIC.

Graycap23 said:

I'm glad you said that. Not because I agree, but it shows that you have a different notion of what music is.

I think of music as basically any sound organized in a musical way, and you seem to be defining it by the way we talk about parts of popular songs--there's the singing and there's the music

NDRU said:

As a musician.....I can't see it any other way.

Graycap23 said:

I think that's maybe a practical definition of music for your specific situation, but not the ultimate definition.
[Edited 7/22/09 14:24pm]

Instrumentalist is probably more fitting for Graycap, do you sing, Gray? If you do, you're a "musician", lol.

But really you can be a musician, not play anything but if you're a musical composer (meaning writing the instrumental), then you're a musician.

Well, my dick is an instrument and I play with it all the time. That doesn't make me a musician though.

vainandy said:

if you arrange that squishy noise into musical patterns it does too make you a musician!

NDRU said:

saying a singer isn't a musician because they don't play an instrument is like saying a musician is not an artist because they don't use a paint brush.

Graycap23 said:

Got to pick you up on this.
The fact that he didn't play instruments on stage doesn't mean he didn't play them. Michael played a few instruments and there are songs on which he is playing guitar, or the keyboard etc.

And yes he did change music. I know in retrospect Thriller sounds like a no brainer and perhaps 25 years on it doesn't sound that surprising, but trust me his music changed a lot of things. The MUSIC of THRILLER changed the way people looked at albums, it changed the way people listened to music, it changed the radio formatted music, it changed what people thought a black artist (or a white artist subsequently) could do and be respected for.

The impact of Thriller (the music) shouldn't be underrated. And yes Michael's videos helped propell his art (and many artists did - I mean Elvis and The Beatles took a big boost in their careers after TV appearances, but that doesn't lessen their music does it?).

We can agree to disagree which I am cool with. But I think whether you like him or not you have to pay the guy respect for what he achieved and the music he wrote, arranged, produced and recorded.

Swa

Swa said:

errant said:

aha, good analogy. People often mean "painter" when they say "artist" but the real definition of artist is much more broad.