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Timmy84 said: utopia7 said:  AT JOE UP IN THE CLUB DANCIN TO 50 CENT
His old ass need to be put in a rest home. 
well I am glad I am watching they just showed a photograph of Michael's legs with the discoloration/splotches confirming the vitiligo  |
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midiscover said: He said he don't care what you'll think LMFAO!
Is this the segment that was filmed like a year ago or new footage? | |
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midiscover said: Timmy84 said: Well this is the same guy that demanded his kids call by his first name so it doesn't surprise me he is mourning that a part of his business company is no longer living. He doesn't look to me like someone who had no clue what fatherhood really was or he was raised to act so cold. I still can't see why Katherine didn't divorce him. I don't think the divorce would've destroyed shit as some people suggested. He actually seems like he loves his family and wants the best for them but is very emotionless which is no surprise since he came from an era where one sign of emotion from a man is a sign of weakness Michael should've taught him that showing emotion wasn't a sign of weakness but I guess he didn't learn any lessons from Michael's death. JMHO. | |
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COMPUTERBLUE1984 said: On a related note to the topic posted, which tribute magazine has been your favorite?
I think XXL (a hip hop magazine) did a fantastic job doing a comprehensive story on the man's life. In XXL's tribute issue, there is even a mention of Prince stating that MJ did not need his help on Bad because according to Prince, he didn't need help to write a hit. I found it interesting how they went on to say Sony was conspiring to screw MJ out of his masters and ow MJ was lobbying to get them from Sony so he can release music at his own discretion.This in turn led to MJs rant against Tommy Mottola and Sony around the time of Invincible. I'm really enjoying the Rolling Stone one, but I'm only 2 articles in. 
(I'm taking it slow and using it as my daily reading material when I'm in the bathroom at work  ) | |
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Timmy84 said: midiscover said:
I think he's a bit confused on the difference between being a father and business partner. He kind of reminds me of my father! Well this is the same guy that demanded his kids call by his first name so it doesn't surprise me he is mourning that a part of his business company is no longer living. He doesn't look to me like someone who had no clue what fatherhood really was or he was raised to act so cold. I still can't see why Katherine didn't divorce him. I don't think the divorce would've destroyed shit as some people suggested. Divorce is very much frowned upon by her faith. If she's a submissive wife she probably didn't stand up for herself or her kids very often. Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise. | |
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Copycat said: 
The Off-the-Wall Accounting of Record Sales Confusion Over Songs vs. Albums Scant Historical Data Amplify Tallies for Michael Jackson and Other Pop Superstars July 2009 In the last three years of his life, long after the release of his final original album, Michael Jackson's career album sales took a curious leap. For many years, Mr. Jackson's lifetime sales tally typically was reported at 200 million albums world-wide. But in late 2006, news articles began putting the number at 750 million, a figure that became part of the popular lore as Mr. Jackson was attempting a comeback. In the last few weeks, it has popped up in obituaries and retrospectives. So how did the sales figure nearly quadruple? A likely explanation is that a rough tally of individual songs was misinterpreted or misrepresented to reflect album sales. Such a numerical misstep is surprisingly easy to make in the world of album sales figures, where reliable information is spotty in the U.S., and often nonexistent overseas. "When we were asked how many albums Michael Jackson sold, we were as embarrassed as anybody," says Adrian Strain, a spokesman for the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, a London-based trade group. "We had to go to the Guinness Book of World Records." Inflated numbers aren't unique to Mr. Jackson. The Beatles' supposed one-billion-plus sales record also reflects an estimate of the number of songs, not albums, according to trackers of such landmarks. Other performers, such as AC/DC, Julio Iglesias and ABBA, supposedly are members of the 200 million album club, but compiled sales figures put their respective totals closer to 100 million. The modern era of music measurement began in the U.S. in 1991, when retailers began transmitting sales reports electronically to Nielsen SoundScan. Before then, the iconic Billboard charts relied on rankings rather than absolute sales figures from record stores. The magazine didn't know whether, at a given store, the No. 1 album outsold all others combined, or whether they were more tightly bunched, so it assumed equal spacing in assembling its chart, according to Geoff Mayfield, former director of charts at Billboard. Once SoundScan started compiling actual sales totals, Billboard used those numbers instead. Today, SoundScan covers about 95% of music sales in the U.S., according to Chris Muratore, vice president of retail relations and research services for Nielsen Entertainment. SoundScan calculates that Mr. Jackson's albums have sold 23 million copies since 1991 -- far more than Julio Iglesias's 5.1 million, but a far cry from the Beatles' 57.6 million. But SoundScan doesn't track data by album outside the U.S. and Canada, and has no numbers prior to 1991 -- nine years after the release of "Thriller," Michael Jackson's biggest hit. Also, SoundScan doesn't include sales made to record labels' music-club members as part of their promotional offers of, say, 10 albums for a penny. "It's not a true consumer decision to purchase each one of those items," Mr. Muratore says. SoundScan isn't the only source of sales data. In the U.S., the Recording Industry Association of America charges record labels a few hundred dollars to certify shipments of albums. The RIAA reported 61.5 million album sales by Mr. Jackson throughout his career, fewer than half the total for Garth Brooks, and only 17th in the U.S. overall. But record labels don't always request certification, and sales might not be tracked for more than a short period of time after an album is released. On the other hand, the certified numbers might overstate sales if stores order more albums than they are able to sell. RIAA shipment figures also are used to determine which albums can claim coveted "gold" status (500,000 albums sold in the U.S.); or platinum (one million albums). Outside the U.S., industry trade groups have their own methods for tracking album sales, but the data aren't standardized or readily accessible. The IFPI, the international trade group, provides rankings and industrywide totals, not sales by a given artist or album. Turning to the Guinness World Records won't yield more definitive information, either. In the record book's most recent entry on "Thriller" sales, Guinness notes that in 1982, "estimations from Sony and the Recording Industry Association of America put sales at over 55 million copies, although Jackson's management claims that international sales have pushed the total world-wide figure to over 100 million." Guinness concludes that "while it is impossible to verify the final global sales, there is no doubt that it remains the biggest-selling album of all time." With so little hard data made available by the recording industry, amateur music-data trackers have stepped in to try to fill the void. These sleuths dig through certifications, SoundScan figures and other sources to compile sales by album and artist. One such enthusiast, Lau Ho Hoi, who works for a construction firm in Hong Kong and posts on a popular U.K. online music forum, gained attention on the music blog Hitsville last week for his posts from 2004 compiling Mr. Jackson's sales by country. In an updated analysis, he calculated that the pop star sold 131.5 million albums world-wide, and 65.6 million singles. The total doesn't include digital downloads, which have taken off for Mr. Jackson since his death. Guillaume Vieira, an engineer in Paris, has compiled his own totals for his Web site, Fan of Music. By his count, Michael Jackson had sold 205.5 million albums before his death, plus many millions more in singles and downloads. It is an impressive total, and second only to the Beatles, but far fewer than 750 million. That figure first got legs in late 2006, when Raymone Bain, a publicist for Mr. Jackson at the time, touted in a letter to Jackson fan clubs that sales had "exceeded over 750 million units." Units could be interpreted to mean a rough tally of the number of songs sold, not albums. But many journalists and fans interpreted the figure as albums sold, and a wildly inflated number was born. Mr. Jackson's record label, Sony Music, declined to share sales numbers. Ms. Bain didn't respond to requests for comment; she sued Mr. Jackson in May after their business relationship ended. In her lawsuit, she claimed Mr. Jackson sold "over 1 billion records world-wide." http://online.wsj.com/art...41407.html Now that's a great article because I've been debating the 750 million figure (and even the 100 million figure for Thriller) for the last three years. Sales of the other two "big heavyweights" like Elvis and the Beatles didn't even sell half albums as has been claimed by their own record labels (Sony and Motown also played the cards when it came to the Jacksons). Michael's sales I thought were always around the 250 million rank overall (the 200 million for albums and 50 million for singles), which I still believe is very huge considering how global he was. [Edited 7/14/09 19:28pm] [Edited 7/14/09 19:32pm] | |
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purplesweat said:  I knew from the start that I loved you with all my heart. | |
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purplesweat said:  | |
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Glen Ballard on Making "Man in the Mirror" July 2009 "I'd been producing for Quincy [Jones], and I had tried to write something for Bad but it hadn't been accepted. We were closing out the record, and Quincy said, "Don't you have anything for us?" So [singer] Siedah Garrett wrote "Man in the Mirror" on a Saturday night at my house in Encino. " "We didn't have a chance to dress it up, so I didn't feel like it had a chance, but Quincy played it for Michael, and he said, "Make a track." The song was this really magical moment, and it had everything to do with Michael's vocal interpretation. In the last two minutes, Michael started doing these incantations: all the "shamons" and "oohs." He went to that place on his own. We certainly couldn't have written that." Link | |
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Timmy84 said: Copycat said:
The Off-the-Wall Accounting of Record Sales Confusion Over Songs vs. Albums Scant Historical Data Amplify Tallies for Michael Jackson and Other Pop Superstars July 2009 In the last three years of his life, long after the release of his final original album, Michael Jackson's career album sales took a curious leap. For many years, Mr. Jackson's lifetime sales tally typically was reported at 200 million albums world-wide. But in late 2006, news articles began putting the number at 750 million, a figure that became part of the popular lore as Mr. Jackson was attempting a comeback. In the last few weeks, it has popped up in obituaries and retrospectives. So how did the sales figure nearly quadruple? A likely explanation is that a rough tally of individual songs was misinterpreted or misrepresented to reflect album sales. Such a numerical misstep is surprisingly easy to make in the world of album sales figures, where reliable information is spotty in the U.S., and often nonexistent overseas. "When we were asked how many albums Michael Jackson sold, we were as embarrassed as anybody," says Adrian Strain, a spokesman for the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, a London-based trade group. "We had to go to the Guinness Book of World Records." Inflated numbers aren't unique to Mr. Jackson. The Beatles' supposed one-billion-plus sales record also reflects an estimate of the number of songs, not albums, according to trackers of such landmarks. Other performers, such as AC/DC, Julio Iglesias and ABBA, supposedly are members of the 200 million album club, but compiled sales figures put their respective totals closer to 100 million. The modern era of music measurement began in the U.S. in 1991, when retailers began transmitting sales reports electronically to Nielsen SoundScan. Before then, the iconic Billboard charts relied on rankings rather than absolute sales figures from record stores. The magazine didn't know whether, at a given store, the No. 1 album outsold all others combined, or whether they were more tightly bunched, so it assumed equal spacing in assembling its chart, according to Geoff Mayfield, former director of charts at Billboard. Once SoundScan started compiling actual sales totals, Billboard used those numbers instead. Today, SoundScan covers about 95% of music sales in the U.S., according to Chris Muratore, vice president of retail relations and research services for Nielsen Entertainment. SoundScan calculates that Mr. Jackson's albums have sold 23 million copies since 1991 -- far more than Julio Iglesias's 5.1 million, but a far cry from the Beatles' 57.6 million. But SoundScan doesn't track data by album outside the U.S. and Canada, and has no numbers prior to 1991 -- nine years after the release of "Thriller," Michael Jackson's biggest hit. Also, SoundScan doesn't include sales made to record labels' music-club members as part of their promotional offers of, say, 10 albums for a penny. "It's not a true consumer decision to purchase each one of those items," Mr. Muratore says. SoundScan isn't the only source of sales data. In the U.S., the Recording Industry Association of America charges record labels a few hundred dollars to certify shipments of albums. The RIAA reported 61.5 million album sales by Mr. Jackson throughout his career, fewer than half the total for Garth Brooks, and only 17th in the U.S. overall. But record labels don't always request certification, and sales might not be tracked for more than a short period of time after an album is released. On the other hand, the certified numbers might overstate sales if stores order more albums than they are able to sell. RIAA shipment figures also are used to determine which albums can claim coveted "gold" status (500,000 albums sold in the U.S.); or platinum (one million albums). Outside the U.S., industry trade groups have their own methods for tracking album sales, but the data aren't standardized or readily accessible. The IFPI, the international trade group, provides rankings and industrywide totals, not sales by a given artist or album. Turning to the Guinness World Records won't yield more definitive information, either. In the record book's most recent entry on "Thriller" sales, Guinness notes that in 1982, "estimations from Sony and the Recording Industry Association of America put sales at over 55 million copies, although Jackson's management claims that international sales have pushed the total world-wide figure to over 100 million." Guinness concludes that "while it is impossible to verify the final global sales, there is no doubt that it remains the biggest-selling album of all time." With so little hard data made available by the recording industry, amateur music-data trackers have stepped in to try to fill the void. These sleuths dig through certifications, SoundScan figures and other sources to compile sales by album and artist. One such enthusiast, Lau Ho Hoi, who works for a construction firm in Hong Kong and posts on a popular U.K. online music forum, gained attention on the music blog Hitsville last week for his posts from 2004 compiling Mr. Jackson's sales by country. In an updated analysis, he calculated that the pop star sold 131.5 million albums world-wide, and 65.6 million singles. The total doesn't include digital downloads, which have taken off for Mr. Jackson since his death. Guillaume Vieira, an engineer in Paris, has compiled his own totals for his Web site, Fan of Music. By his count, Michael Jackson had sold 205.5 million albums before his death, plus many millions more in singles and downloads. It is an impressive total, and second only to the Beatles, but far fewer than 750 million. That figure first got legs in late 2006, when Raymone Bain, a publicist for Mr. Jackson at the time, touted in a letter to Jackson fan clubs that sales had "exceeded over 750 million units." Units could be interpreted to mean a rough tally of the number of songs sold, not albums. But many journalists and fans interpreted the figure as albums sold, and a wildly inflated number was born. Mr. Jackson's record label, Sony Music, declined to share sales numbers. Ms. Bain didn't respond to requests for comment; she sued Mr. Jackson in May after their business relationship ended. In her lawsuit, she claimed Mr. Jackson sold "over 1 billion records world-wide." http://online.wsj.com/art...41407.html Now that's a great article because I've been debating the 750 million figure (and even the 100 million figure for Thriller) for the last three years. Sales of the other two "big heavyweights" like Elvis and the Beatles didn't even sell half albums as has been claimed by their own record labels (Sony and Motown also played the cards when it came to the Jacksons). Michael's sales I thought were always around the 250 million rank overall, which I still believe is very huge considering how global he was. [Edited 7/14/09 19:28pm] Well, I don't have a problem with them including singles and EP's and what-not with albums in a "number of records" sold stat. But if they start going by the number of SONGS sold? That's like, what, at least 9 or 10 per album? Music industry math is always shady. If I was any of these artists (or their estates) and heard some of these inflated figures that are touted, I'd hire Prince to do an audit for me, to make sure I got paid for all those 750 million whatevers in sales. After he's done balancing spreadsheets for Purple Rain of course... | |
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ViintageJunkiie said: Ummm?
THIS PICTURE IS FAKE! IT'S JAMES BROWN'S OPEN CASKET PHOTO WITH MJ'S FACE ON IT [Edited 7/14/09 16:36pm] I was waiting for somebody to post this fake shit! The message you are about to hear are not meant for transmission. Should ONLY be accessed in the privacy of your mind. Words are so intense so if you dare to listen.Take off your clothes and meet me between the lines.  | |
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Uh that doesn't even look real. Bad case of photoshop. "And When The Groove Is Dead And Gone, You Know That Love Survives, So We Can Rock Forever" RIP MJ 
"Baby, that was much too fast"...Goodnight dear sweet Prince. I'll love you always | |
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Timmy84 said: midiscover said: He actually seems like he loves his family and wants the best for them but is very emotionless which is no surprise since he came from an era where one sign of emotion from a man is a sign of weakness Michael should've taught him that showing emotion wasn't a sign of weakness but I guess he didn't learn any lessons from Michael's death. JMHO. Well, as the saying goes "You can't teach an old dog!" Janet has said he has made progress My guess is MJ just refused to reconcile | |
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Oh ok, I thought I would be the only one watching this special. I'm glad yal are tunin in..
Is it me or does Joe look like he just doesn't give a damn. I know everybody grieves in their own way but somethin just seems off. And I'm always one to defend Joe but... | |
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midiscover said: Timmy84 said: Michael should've taught him that showing emotion wasn't a sign of weakness but I guess he didn't learn any lessons from Michael's death. JMHO. Well, as the saying goes "You can't teach an old dog!" Janet has said he has made progress My guess is MJ just refused to reconcileNo they reconciled during the trial. MJ forgave Joe and he said that Joe became nicer with age, similar to what Janet said. I guess age does change some people for the better, but if this is Joe when he's toned down, i'd hate to see how he was 30 or 40 years ago. [Edited 7/14/09 19:40pm] "And When The Groove Is Dead And Gone, You Know That Love Survives, So We Can Rock Forever" RIP MJ
"Baby, that was much too fast"...Goodnight dear sweet Prince. I'll love you always | |
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EmeraldSkies said: tritoncin said: I've always thought that MJ never had a sexual "desire" Not in the way when you see someone or like someone and you think OMG, and you'd like to have sex with that person. When that person turns you ON and you have physical reactions... You know what I mean. I think the word SEX does not go well with MJ's name on the same line. That's why I couldn't think he was gay or bi or even straight. I believe the only time he thought about SEX (thought, as a concept) was when he had the need to have children (either if he gave his sperm or not). But in general people have children because they have had sex before. I think he skipped all that part. Of course I don't know, but even in his videos I never saw something sexual that was not "for the video". And don't start quoting parts of his videos because it's just not there. The man didn't seem to have any interest in SEX. I'm not referring to in women or men, but in SEX. That's what IMO, made him so weird for some of us. we LOVE sex, you know. Anyways.  There are people out there like that,I just can't remember what that were called.  I saw a show on TV once that was doing a study,and they had couples that loved each other,and were affectionate,but never had any desire or really a want or need to have sex. It just wasn't important to them.Yeah because the thrill was gone...it was important they just had underlying issues. Every human being at some time or another has a sexual nature! Michael Jackson got his freak on too, we just never saw that side of him. The message you are about to hear are not meant for transmission. Should ONLY be accessed in the privacy of your mind. Words are so intense so if you dare to listen.Take off your clothes and meet me between the lines. | |
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EmeraldSkies said: dreamfactory313 said: On the Scream maxi single, there is a mix where he says "STOP FUCKIN' WITH ME" repeatedly.
That is Janet saying that. It was reported that Michael refused to say the F word.  Please Michael was NOT that damn innocent!  The message you are about to hear are not meant for transmission. Should ONLY be accessed in the privacy of your mind. Words are so intense so if you dare to listen.Take off your clothes and meet me between the lines. | |
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Cinnamon234 said: midiscover said: Well, as the saying goes "You can't teach an old dog!" Janet has said he has made progress My guess is MJ just refused to reconcileNo they reconciled during the trial. MJ forgave Joe and he said that Joe became nicer with age, similar to what Janet said. I guess age does change some people for the better, but if this is Joe when he's toned down, i'd hate to see how he was 30 or 40 years ago. [Edited 7/14/09 19:40pm] I think it's nice that they reconciled 
He doesn't seem as bad as the media is making him seem But WTF why is Debbie Rowe's friend/ MJ's ex-acquittance speaking about Michael and I didn't know most of the grand-kids live with Katherine in Ecino | |
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errant said: Timmy84 said: Now that's a great article because I've been debating the 750 million figure (and even the 100 million figure for Thriller) for the last three years. Sales of the other two "big heavyweights" like Elvis and the Beatles didn't even sell half albums as has been claimed by their own record labels (Sony and Motown also played the cards when it came to the Jacksons). Michael's sales I thought were always around the 250 million rank overall, which I still believe is very huge considering how global he was. [Edited 7/14/09 19:28pm] Well, I don't have a problem with them including singles and EP's and what-not with albums in a "number of records" sold stat. But if they start going by the number of SONGS sold? That's like, what, at least 9 or 10 per album? Music industry math is always shady. If I was any of these artists (or their estates) and heard some of these inflated figures that are touted, I'd hire Prince to do an audit for me, to make sure I got paid for all those 750 million whatevers in sales. After he's done balancing spreadsheets for Purple Rain of course... I wonder if Elvis' family, Michael's family and the families and surviving members of the Beatles had to be direct with people stating unproven facts about artists' record sales. I don't know why it surprises creditors when they sue. | |
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midiscover said: Cinnamon234 said: No they reconciled during the trial. MJ forgave Joe and he said that Joe became nicer with age, similar to what Janet said. I guess age does change some people for the better, but if this is Joe when he's toned down, i'd hate to see how he was 30 or 40 years ago. [Edited 7/14/09 19:40pm] I think it's nice that they reconciled
He doesn't seem as bad as the media is making him seem But WTF why is Debbie Rowe's friend/ MJ's ex-acquittance speaking about Michael and I didn't know most of the grand-kids live with Katherine in EcinoHa Ha Ha go figure most of those Jackson boys are deadbeats...No wonder Michael didn't put them down to raise his children. The message you are about to hear are not meant for transmission. Should ONLY be accessed in the privacy of your mind. Words are so intense so if you dare to listen.Take off your clothes and meet me between the lines. | |
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midiscover said: Timmy84 said: Michael should've taught him that showing emotion wasn't a sign of weakness but I guess he didn't learn any lessons from Michael's death. JMHO. Well, as the saying goes "You can't teach an old dog!" Janet has said he has made progress My guess is MJ just refused to reconcileNah, as Cinnamon said, MJ and Joe reconciled but they had a hard time of it after Thriller (MJ fired him before its release). | |
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Timmy84 said: errant said: Well, I don't have a problem with them including singles and EP's and what-not with albums in a "number of records" sold stat. But if they start going by the number of SONGS sold? That's like, what, at least 9 or 10 per album? Music industry math is always shady. If I was any of these artists (or their estates) and heard some of these inflated figures that are touted, I'd hire Prince to do an audit for me, to make sure I got paid for all those 750 million whatevers in sales. After he's done balancing spreadsheets for Purple Rain of course... I wonder if Elvis' family, Michael's family and the families and surviving members of the Beatles had to be direct with people stating unproven facts about artists' record sales. I don't know why it surprises creditors when they sue. to hear them tell it, any filthy rich man who has to go to court is on the verge of bankruptcy at any given moment. ask Trump. | |
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Chic35 said: midiscover said: I think it's nice that they reconciled
He doesn't seem as bad as the media is making him seem But WTF why is Debbie Rowe's friend/ MJ's ex-acquittance speaking about Michael and I didn't know most of the grand-kids live with Katherine in EcinoHa Ha Ha go figure most of those Jackson boys are deadbeats...No wonder Michael didn't put them down to raise his children. Yeah Jermaine's and Randy's children have been living in Encino for years with their fathers. I know Tito has his own house. Don't know about Jackie but I know Marlon had been pretty distant from the family home since 1985 after he left the Jacksons. | |
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errant said: Timmy84 said: I wonder if Elvis' family, Michael's family and the families and surviving members of the Beatles had to be direct with people stating unproven facts about artists' record sales. I don't know why it surprises creditors when they sue. to hear them tell it, any filthy rich man who has to go to court is on the verge of bankruptcy at any given moment. ask Trump. Yeah that'll likely be their excuse.
I think half the reason their sales are pushed up because it builds up their stories about how they fell apart in terms of finances. Finances became an important part of the final chapters of Elvis' and MJ's stories. While Elvis was still making money off tours, the money was actually going to Col. Tom Parker, who had control of about 80% of Elvis' finances. Plus Elvis was always buying shit for random folks on the street and for his friends. By his death he only had $1 million in his name. Priscilla and 'em had to refinance everything following his death. I think the reason Elvis' sales were trumped up was because certain companies chose to just certify "everything" in his catalog (that's why he got that 118 million figure, lol). Of course we heard the stories of MJ's "financial ruin".
They would say "he sold 750 million records at one point but he's $500 million in debt...how did he blow his millions?" | |
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Timmy84 said: Chic35 said: Ha Ha Ha go figure most of those Jackson boys are deadbeats...No wonder Michael didn't put them down to raise his children. Yeah Jermaine's and Randy's children have been living in Encino for years with their fathers. I know Tito has his own house. Don't know about Jackie but I know Marlon had been pretty distant from the family home since 1985 after he left the Jacksons. Jermaine and Randy live in the family compound!?!?! | |
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midiscover said: Timmy84 said: Yeah Jermaine's and Randy's children have been living in Encino for years with their fathers. I know Tito has his own house. Don't know about Jackie but I know Marlon had been pretty distant from the family home since 1985 after he left the Jacksons. Jermaine and Randy live in the family compound!?!?! From time to time.
Jermaine supposedly has a home in the Middle East tho. | |
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Everything you ever wanted to know about worldwide record sales—Michael Jackson, the Beatles, Pink Floyd and more!
Posted at: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 10:10 pm On the UK message board I wrote about last week, ukmix.org, a poster calling himself MJDangerous has been submitting reams of information about sales figures from around the world, notably about Michael Jackson. With that exhaustive data, I first assumed he was a Sony employee, based either in Britain or France. MJDangerous was kind enough to respond to an email I sent him. It turns out he is French, just recently out of school and working as an engineer. His name is Guillaume Vieira. He’s not in the business at all, but rather a fan who for the last six years has been collecting press releases, Billboard stories and sales data and collating them into a coherent and persuasive portrait of an elusive beast: Legitimate accountings of worldwide record sales. I found the information he had at his fingertips impressive*. We had the following chat over the weekend. I rearranged it a little and did some minor editing. Hitsville: Thanks for taking the time to talk about this. What’s your experience in collecting worldwide sales figures? They are notoriously difficult to discern, aren’t they? Guillaume Vieira: Figures are difficult to discern in the beginning, but I faced enough of them to discern them immediately and quite easily now. I’ve checked charts, certifications and officially reported sales of over 10,000 albums in the last six years. When a figure is said to have been officially reported but hasn’t, I know it instantly. As I said, it is easy for me—I already know all the figures that have been really reported. Hitsville: As you’ve no doubt noticed, the New York Times after Michael Jackson’s death stated flatly that he had sold 750 million records worldwide, and that Thriller had sold an “estimated” 100 million. Every other news outlet in the land, not to mention the indefatigable U.S. cable channels, cited similar figures. Are they accurate? What’s your best estimate about Thriller? Vieira: The figure of “over 100 million” for Thriller came out, just like the figure of 750 million for Jackson, in November 2006 at World Music Awards. The last reported figure by Sony was 54 million worldwide, during the HIStory era, while the Guinness Book of World Records reported Thriller at “over 50 million” worldwide. In 2006, his management team reported it sold 104 million worldwide—54 million in the US according to the RIAA and 50 million elsewhere according to Guinness! Thriller indeed sold over 28 million copies in the US. It was a giant blockbuster there (37 weeks #1). But to sell 100 million it would have to be even more successful in every other market than in the US, which represents 40 percent of international sales. It was for sure a blockbuster, but that much was simply not possible! In UK, its shipment is up to 4,12 million copies with last week’s sales. In France, it sold a record breaking 3,3 million copies (1,8 million by Feb 1984 according to Billboard; 2,5 million by 1988 according to SNEP—the French equivalent of the RIAA. Then we have documented sales for recent years). Italy, 1,19 million up to 2001, published by Sony Music. Thriller 25 is Gold there, as a whole it sold 1,3 million in this country by now. Germany, 3xPlat (1,5m**) since 1995, not many figures since that time but chart performances put it around 2 million. Sweden, recently certified 4xPlatinum, 400,000, plus 20,000 copies for Thriller 25. Netherlands, 800,000 copies by 1996 (8xPlatinum, highest certified album ever), by now over 1 million. Austria, 400,000, 8xPlatinum, again highest figure ever reached (local albums included). Belgium, 550,000, 11xPlatinum, second to Helmut Lotti’s Goes Classic only. Spain, 500,000 by 1984, around a million currently. In Europe, it sold close to 17 million copies. This figure is massive—more impressive than 28 million in US. Since IFPI introduced album certifications for Europe in 1994, no album ever reached even 10 million. The only one studio album that reached 10 million in Europe in the last 20 years is Dangerous, by Michael Jackson himself, released in 1991, which sold 12 million copies in the old continent. That album, regarded as half a flop in the US, is to Europe/Asia/Oceania the equivalent of Shania Twain’s Come On Over in the US—The biggest album released in the last 2 decades. Billboard recently reported a figure of 2,5 million copies in Japan for Thriller (it sold 1,616,000 copies while charting in 83/84 alone, without counting imports, 30% of sales of foreign acts). It sold around 6,5 million in Asia. Over a million in Australia, recently certified 14xPlatinum (980,000). In South America, it is the best selling album ever for a foreign act: more than 600,000 copies in Argentina, over 1,3 million in Brazil, 400,000 in Chile and a million in Mexico. Then over 3 million in Canada. In Africa, it sold 600,000 copies in South Africa alone, 300,000 copies in Turkey, over 2 million in the continent. Then we only have to add figures: US 28,5m, Europe 17m, Canada 3,3m, Asia 6,5m, Latin America + Oceania 6m, Africa 2m, total around 63 million. As you can see, a lot of accurate data is actually known; the jigsaw is far from being as obscure as people may think. Give or take a maximum of 2m, this figure of 63 million is correct. Hitsville: What’s your ballpark estimate of how many records Jackson sold worldwide? Vieira: Albums - at least 205 million, at most 225 million Singles - at least 105 million, at most 120 million Digital singles - at least 19 million, at most 22 million Music Videos - at least 14 million, at most 17 million Ringtones - 2 million, give or take a few thousands (1,4 million in the US) All those figures don’t include sales of the Jackson 5/Jacksons, except for Digital singles. The group sold: Albums - at least 45 million, at most 60 million Singles - at least 40 million, at most 55 million All together, that puts a ballpark at 430—500 million, but since some figures may be a bit too high, and others too low (they aren’t all in the low side or all in the high side), a more correct one would be worldwide records sales somewhere between 450 million and 480 million. That’s around 80 million more than Elvis Presley, 40 million under the Beatles***. Hitsville: Those are impressive figures, even if they don’t approach those big round numbers the papers were tossing about. Let’s talk about the Jackson Five for a minute. It’s funny—while I hadn’t published it, I was working on a post discussing whether the figure of 100 million sold for the Jackson Five, as is claimed, could possibly be right. To be honest, I thought it couldn’t; their heyday lasted about 18 months. In the U.S. they’re the equivalent of, say, Three Dog Night. On the other hand, I also remember Michael Jackson perhaps in the Martin Bashir documentary, recalling that as a 12-year-old he would get royalty checks of $200,000, which I thought was a large figure a) at the time and b) considering infinitesimal royalty rate the group was getting from Motown. But it makes sense if the group was selling records at those levels. Did they really sell anything like 100 million records? Guillaume: The Jackson 5/Jacksons did sell around 100 million; they sold around 50 million of each singles and albums. But that is up to now! When that figure was first claimed in 1977, they were obviously, far, far from reaching it. That claim even supposed they were the second group reaching that milestone after the Beatles—outselling even the Rolling Stones, which was not true at all (and still isn’t!). Their single sales in the US were massive; even up to now they still are close to Madonna in this area, and outsold acts like Whitney Houston. Hitsville: In the context of Motown, the Jacksons were the label’s 5th or 6th biggest act. As I look over a crude marker like the biggest chart acts of Billboard, its strikes me that Berry Gordy oversaw the careers of close to ten percent of the biggest acts in history. Do you have an off-the-cuff sense of how many records Motown sold? Guillaume: Motown sales were truly gigantic in the 60s and 70s. Single sales were huge at that time and to be honest they were definitely dominating that sector. Album sales of Motown acts are very often not that impressive: First because the market wasn’t big at the time, second because their acts are more remembered for their singles than their albums in general, third because Motown releases the same hits packages again and again, cannibalizing sales of original albums. Only Stevie Wonder, and later Lionel Richie, sold loads of albums while signed by Motown. It is hard to guess the entire sales of the label (especialy since I haven’t studied several of their key acts), but let’s check a few of them: - Jackson 5 - 70 million (not including sales of the Jacksons, who weren’t on Motown anymore) - Michael Jackson - 20 million - Stevie Wonder - 170 million - Lionel Richie - 85 million - Diana Ross/Supremes - 190 million - Commodores - 60 million - The Temptations - 110 million - Marvin Gaye - 110 million - Four Tops - 40 million - Miracles/Smokey Robinson - 55 million A total of 910 million - most of them were singles. With all their acts, it is safe to say the Motown label sold well over 1 billion records, which is an incredible total. Hitsville: Now, if it’s fair to toss in the Jackson Five’s sales with Michael’s, it’s fair to toss in Paul McCartney’s with his previous band. What’s his totals compared to Jackson’s? Diana Ross’ totals as a solo artist combined with with the Supremes? Guillaume: Diana Ross/Supremes total is ahead, not that far from 200 million records sold. Paul McCartney is the master. He sold around 170 million records on his own, added to over 500 million with the Beatles; that is over two thirds of the road to a billion! Obviously, on such a list, Michael Jackson wouldn’t be at 2, considering the three other Beatles would be ahead of him. Macca with 670m, Lennon with 620m, Harrison with 550m and Ringo with 525m, then Michael Jackson with around 465m. When we see how hard it is to sell 10 million records (and despite what most people think it has always been very hard), those numbers are from another world! Hitsville: Janet Jackson gets overlooked sometimes in the Michael hoopla, but she is a top-tier star in her own right, isn’t she? What’s your best estimation of her worldwide sales and her ranking worldwide? Janet sold 45 million singles and 65 million albums, which ranks her among the top 60 best selling acts ever, quite an achievement already, definitely a star on her own. She is in par with the likes Nirvana, Journey, and the Who in terms of album sales and sold many more singles than them. Hitsville: What are the second and third best-selling albums worldwide, behind Thriller? Guillaume: Dark Side of the Moon, by Pink Floyd, is the second-best-selling album ever. It is now up to 42 million and still selling very well year after year. It is harder to say which album is at three—a trio of soundtracks sold about the same at 40 million: Grease, Saturday Night Fever and The Bodyguard. Grease looks like having the lead yet and anyway is the one that is still selling the most so it will end at 3 sooner or later. Jackson’s Bad ranks in the top 10 while Dangerous sits inside the top 20. Interesting to note that despite their relatively small sales in the US compared to Thriller, in the rest of the world they were almost as massive as Thriller and are among the seven and eight best-selling albums ever, along with Dire Straits’ Brothers in Arms, Dark Side of the Moon and the three soundtracks previously named. All those albums sold 20 to 23 million outside of the US, except Thriller, which sold close to 35 million. ———– * I have no way of checking the authenticity of his figures but, to give an indication of the extent of the data he’s working with, a single post in this forum detailing Jackson’s sales just in the UK runs some 7200 words. ** Outside the U.S., platinum certifications are done somewhat proportionally smaller in the different markets. *** Hitsville would like to point out his rough estimates on Jackson’s sales jibe roughly with Vieira’s. [Edited 7/14/09 20:05pm] | |
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errant said: Timmy84 said: Now that's a great article because I've been debating the 750 million figure (and even the 100 million figure for Thriller) for the last three years. Sales of the other two "big heavyweights" like Elvis and the Beatles didn't even sell half albums as has been claimed by their own record labels (Sony and Motown also played the cards when it came to the Jacksons). Michael's sales I thought were always around the 250 million rank overall, which I still believe is very huge considering how global he was. [Edited 7/14/09 19:28pm] Well, I don't have a problem with them including singles and EP's and what-not with albums in a "number of records" sold stat. But if they start going by the number of SONGS sold? That's like, what, at least 9 or 10 per album? Music industry math is always shady. If I was any of these artists (or their estates) and heard some of these inflated figures that are touted, I'd hire Prince to do an audit for me, to make sure I got paid for all those 750 million whatevers in sales. After he's done balancing spreadsheets for Purple Rain of course... I think it's more realistic to say that 20 million OFF THE WALL 50 million THRILLER 30 million BAD 20 million DANGEROUS 20 million HIStory 10 million INVINCIBLE there's your 150 million, which is still PHENOMENAL! add sales from JACKSON 5/JACKSONS albums, and even singles if u like, but u'll never get anywhere near 750 million, that's just ludicrous. | |
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