Timmy84 said:

I agree Timmy. Other than those, the only other one I own is Dangerous.

violetblues said:

it wasn't just quincys production that made off the wall and thriller so good, it was also the great musicians that were involved. it's a shame that was put aside when quincy stopped producing him. it's the stale sound of drum machines and sequencers that makes the post quincy material sound stale, apart from a few exceptions. it's the funky drums, bass and live keys that bring the earlier music alive. even with the motown material they've finally realised they drenched the shit with production and have released a stripped back album

i think you really need to listen to the album give me the night by george benson to understand how much quincy influenced those albums. george or MJ could have recorded either of the albums and still been as popular. the thriller video of course helped promote the album a huge amount, but again the videos were all produced and created by other people, copying other peoples ideas in thriller in particular

seeingvoices12 said:

I disagree. And people start threads about people they don't like here all the time.

suga10 said:

now i don't udnerstand you, as creativitely he was at a low with those live concerts, phoning it home with the same routines every night to lipsynched backing tracks

maybe you've not sat night after night watching a pile of live MJ shows to realise they are the same night after night, the show you posted is the only official live show to be released on dvd, so you can't draw a conclusion from that alone

unique said:

I never knew Q was involved in that song, another spectacular sounding record.

seeingvoices12 said:

it's a thread for critical discussion. that doesn't mean a thread to slag something off. and i've not read anything to suggest that anyone hates him

most prince fans will have enjoyed some MJ music in their lives, the music is all over the world, so most people have heard it, thus they can talk about it

this thread appears to be an attempt to discuss the man and his music, rather than an MJ tribute thread

people discuss prince all the time about a number of subjects, good and bad, and with many views of each topic, good and bad, and that's healhy, appreciated and encouraged

what's not healthy is blind devotion and appreciation without constructive critisism. and most critism is off that nature, of all the hundreds of posts, you get very few of the likes of "jacko is a pedo", and considering that's the viewpoint of perhaps the majority of people, it goes to show that people enjoy discussing subjects in a serious manner

i think it's people like yourself that spoil these discussions with blind devotion, blinkered viewpoints and failure to accept any negative critism, regardless of the truth of the matter. and when the subject is someone with one of the most chequered pasts, with multiple child abuse cases, drug abuse, sham weddings, kids with unknown origin, financial state close to bankruptcy, no music released in 10 years, no tour in 12 years, no fully sun show in about 25 years, and one of the biggest tour cancelations in history, it's no wonder people want to discuss things in an open and frank manner without biased viewpoints

violetblues said:

Q was involved in a lot of hit songs during that period for the likes of these artists:
The Brothers Johnson
Rufus ft. Chaka Khan
Ashford & Simpson (I reckon he did something for them, they and Chaka were on his "Stuff Like That" after all)
Patti Austin
George Benson as was already mentioned (Toto also provided some musical background for him in the '80s)

MJ made it bigger because he had a broader appeal with his pop records and Quincy's touch was also in making sure the songs gel with each other, that's what he did when the first draft of "Thriller" came out, he, MJ, Rod and Bruce had to re-work the album in two weeks.

I did notice some of the Motown stuff there was too much going on, I guess Motown thought they could bring in a lot of sounds to help alleviate MJ's voice at the time compared to the more stripped down sounds of Marvin and Stevie perhaps.

With his brothers, MJ was able to bring out ideas missing in his Motown work. That's why I say his talent was better revealed in those two Jacksons albums than anything else. Dangerous in some ways come close but there's too much noise going on despite the fact that I enjoy the album, I can see why some would criticize it and the later releases but MJ still had some good moments. His best period was between 1975 and 1982.

Vendetta1 said:

LOL. they all do it, BUt does that mean that its a right thing to do? or what they do is right? I find it weird, If i started a thread about someone I don't ever like it will only give an indication that Im have nothing but Destructive obesession about that person...I don't want to be look like that.

by the way, I done with this thread, I said what I wanted to say , thanks.

Timmy84 said:

i wonder how things would have panned out if motown gave the jacksons the freedom to experiment a bit and create something along the lines of what marvin, stevie and the temptation did in the 70s, some progressive sounding albums, instead of the pop sound

i used to say MJ's work got worse on each album from off the wall onwards, but i think dangerous was a real lowpoint, and he picked up with some great singles on history. it's just that dangerous sounded more well rounded, and on history the great stuff stood out too much, but whilst dangerous was well rounded, it was boring and dated, and certainly didn't sound anything near dangerous. boring would have been a more apt title. after history he really dropped the ball with blood on the dancefloor, the new tracks were shit and the remixes were awful, even if it was the biggest selling remix album of all time, it doesn't mean it was good. invincible was very misguided, a truly awful album, trying too hard to be a contemporary rnb album of the times, instead of being a michael jackson album. from the outtakes that were leaked afterwards, it seemed there was no chance of getting back to the live instrumental sound that made him popular in the first place. no wonder it wasn't released

unique said:

Yeah HIStory did show you that his creativity wasn't shot. I was also wondering about the classic instrumental album. MJ did sound as if he was trying to mingle with the changing times in Invincible. By then, he hadn't a hit in American shores in five or six years and the musical scene was always changing. Michael's final great tunes were "Butterflies" and "Whatever Happens" to me.

You know you think you know someone or think you know all about someone... but be honest who thought MJ was THIS MUCH of a drug addict!

I thought he took "stuff" - but who thought the guy collasped his veins to the point that he needed to have this drugs shot into this neck.

Now knowing this....

NO ONE including MJ himself probably knew if he hit on - had sex with underage boys. No workers or friend or family member that knew the man, the true man and his drug problems could say 100% no this guy didnt do this to a kid or the 3 kids plus one phone sex call from 1979.

We call thought he was one way - but no one thought he was a raging drug addict.ALL the people defending him that knew him couldnt say this guy didnt do something. The guy was into kids with his words and his toys/house. But seeing that he was such a addict, who knew this guy didnt "black out" or if he was half awake and then made a move on a boy.

He doesnt have a moral base... he wasn't the guy that was promoted on stage. He had dark sides with all the porn that was there and now add this guy was HIGH 99% of the time. At this point I dont think even Michael Jackson himself could say 100% that he knew everything he did everyday being that high!

MJ really was a scary dark guy! ALL the sick drug things coming out was something I personally never thought was apart of his life on this level. I think the last 8 - 10 years of his life was living his life as a drug addict, researching & doctor shopping. The last thing on his mind was music and singing and dancing! That was all a public relations game to try to remind everyone of his 1980's past.

Pretty sad actually.

Truely there isn't any jokes here.

Really sick and dark!

midnightmover said:

I know..

I got my account locked for a couple days because I had opinions on the case and what was going to happen now after his death. Opinions & Suggestions

These same opinions were in news articles days after my account was locked.

These same opinions now have been said by bodyguards and people that actually knew the guy in the last months of his life.

So yes they should have a 3rd Sticky. 1) Music - 2) Fans - 3) The Case/Truth

ElectricBlue said:

They also locked a thread about MJ, JB, and Prince performing on the same stage in 1983, even though the discussion was all about Prince and whether or not he was high that night. MJ was barely even mentioned. But his name was in the thread title so it got shut down.

seeingvoices12 said:

Give it a rest, my post started by indicating I thought "Billie Jean' was awesome, only that I didn’t gravitate towards him or become a fan like most kids my age.
Rarely do I ever post on any MJ thread because I know how defensive people get on the matter.
As for having an "obsession" of any kind with MJ , I think that’s more you than me,
I like MJ fine, mostly "Off The Wall" and "Thriller" but I just cant call myself a fan because I wasn’t, but he is certainly a fascinating and interesting person worth a whole a lot of discussion.

ElectricBlue said:

one thing about the child molestation is that whilst some people have said they stayed at neverland or met MJ as kids and weren't molested, that doesn't mean he didn't molest other kids

i mean other people who commit sex offences won't do it with everyone, they look for the opportunity, they can get that with some, but not others. of course it depends on the individual and how careful they are

you could think about it this way, you never pull every girl you fancy, or every girl you chat up. you meet girls at work that you wanna fuck, but for one reason or another you don't, but when a girl comes along that you wanna fuck, and you get the chance to, you go for it, but in a numbers game, unless you are as fine looking as myself, the numbers are going to be small

the other thing is, he openly admitted on a tv interview that he slept with kids and thought it was normal and natural. the fact is, it's not normal or natural for any adult to sleep with a child through choice, especially if the kid wasn't part of thier family. that to me is child abuse, as you are abusing your position of being an adult. adults should be telling kids to sleep in thier own bed/area and not allowing them to sleep with adults. that is abusing the adult position. to go on tv and tell the world you did that and think there is nothing wrong with it is clearly a sign that something is rotten in denmark

what seems to be more certain is that no woman has ever admitted to having sex with him, including both his wives. one of which confirms she never even slept in a bed with him, nevermind had sex, and she's the mother of 2 of his kids. a few fans pointed out he had relationships with brooke shields etc, but she also recently confirmed they never had a sexual relationship. his biographer however supposedly has information about two boyfriends he had, confirming thoughts i had about him leading a closeted homosexual life. had he came out and admitted he was homosexual would have probably had an adverse affect on his child abuses cases however, even though being a paedophile does not mean someone is gay, and likewise being gay does not mean someone is a peadophile, but it does seem that there is a high percentage of peadophiles that are gay, and michael didn't do anything to make anyone think he was intersted in females, or adults, sexually

violetblues said:

yeah, regardless of whether you liked him or his music, he was a fascinating person, and the bizarre lifestyle fascinates me. i have a similar fascination with popstars in general who have bizarre lifestyles, and with many of them i apreciate the work of the artist too, to some degree at least. with MJ however, some of his work is fantastic, thriller and off the wall in particular, and likewise a few of his 90s hits, and his 70s hits, so i imagine most people would have at least some appreciation for his music, in the same way as most people will have beatles songs they like. MJ's music wasn't that far away from what prince did, so it's fair to assume that if you are a fan of prince you will enjoy at least some of MJ's music. there can't be many prince fans who honestly don't like any of MJ's work, so whilst they may not be an MJ fan per se, they will probably still like stuff like billie jean. and i think it would be fair to say the same for MJ fans liking some of prince's work

violetblues said:

I gave it a rest already, I said im done with it, please don't respond to this because I don't want to respond again...

As I have said, I don't mind critisim at all, if you meant music critisim then you have my full support however your thread will go to a different route as always( plastic surgies and child molestion ) which something has been discussed to death,and it started going that route by the way, There is no point to critisize the man's personality because you know , The man is dead.
[Edited 7/11/09 15:12pm]

I long forgot about MJ when the era of Funk began. My progression was James Brown, Sly Stone, George Clinton, Rick James, Prince. By the time Prince came around MJ had been forgotten history. I have always liked Rock, Funk, even Hip Hop. But to me, MJ was always pop music, bubble gum. Nothing groundbreaking like "Street Songs," "Dirty Mind" or "1999". And definitely nothing funky.
[Edited 7/11/09 15:19pm]

seeingvoices12 said:

from that perspective, there's no point in critising anyone if they are dead, but as this is an internet forum, not all posts will necesarily be critisim, and many will be merely discussion, and whilst arguably his success and fame is a result of the weird things he did, and people talking about him, it's only natural for people to want to discuss it after his death. many topics haven't been given a final answer, so people will keep on talking about the unanswered questions

you don't have to join in if you don't want to, no-one is forcing you, but if you really don't care about it, don't bother posting to say you don't care, just move on and ignore it like most people are

MJ did to music what George Lucas & Spielberg did for movies, kid friendly blockbusters complete with action figures and product tie ins, and I think was one of the reasons he blew up as he did.
While Prince's image was deviant to many, and made news because of it, MJ was making lucrative Pepsi commercials that brought him home to everybody's living room, toys and games and t-shirts plastered everywhere, if you didn’t know who Michael Jackson was, those Pepsi commercials playing on primetime let you know.
Besides good music, MJ came to our livingrooms at the right place at the right time.
[Edited 7/11/09 15:33pm]

.
[Edited 7/11/09 15:45pm]

Timmy84 said:

Those are G.R.E.A.T. albums, especially the latter. "Time Waits For No One" is just a gem. But all of the songs are so diverse, full, lush, well produced, and quite memorable. I still liked most of Victory as well, aside from 1 or 2 tunes. "Torture", "Be Not Always", "State of Shock", "Body", "Wait", "One More Chance" ...all great song. Only Tito's "We Can Change The World", and Randy's "The Hurt" are stinkers.

ernestsewell said:

I could never get into Victory for some reason, I saw some of its appeal and I can see why people would like it, I just didn't get it.

In the 80's Madonna took marketing cues from both MJ and Prince. She took some Prince's sexually charged provocative image and blended it with MJ's commercial acumen, making big budget primetime newsworthy Pepsi commercials that never hurt her credibility, but rather cement her as the icon she is today.
Some say MJ paved the road for black artists like Prince, If anything, I think MJ paved the road for her, more than he did for Prince.
[Edited 7/11/09 16:08pm]

Michael paved the way for pop artists of all races, that's a fact, people who are saying it was just black artists (AL?!) is really missing the point of his legacy, plus, like you pointed out, he was one of the few artists (probably the only one) to be presented as a brand.
[Edited 7/11/09 16:15pm]

lawd...

now MJ was just an over marketed mediocre drug addicted singer?

All I know is that Michael crossed a shitload of barriers. Age, race, nationality, creed, sex, religion, class...you name it and he crossed it. You can got to a third world country where they have a hundred people in one small village and all they have is a single, piece of shit radio and if you asked any of them who Michael Jackson was, they would know this man. That's powerful and inspiring considering his upbringing. An African Amercian child from little Gary, Indiana growing up in a small house with that many siblings becoming known all around the world and emulated by soo many in the entertainment industry. He deserves respect just for defining what the American dream is all about IMHO.

Regardless of whether he was over-rated, underrated, or never rated, the man did things that many white performers couldn't even accomplish, let alone black performers and history won't be able to forget what he's left behind. He gave 45 years of his life on this earth to making music that made millions and millions of people happy. I can't hate anyone who gave that much time to an industry who did nothing but tear him down in the end even though there are stories that his people were supplying them with some of these outlandish stories at one point. He did a lot to help children throughout this world and a evil person/monster wouldn't be putting that much energy into helping people.

From several homevideos that were posted of Michael in the many stickies, the one of him going to the supermarket and in the backseat of a car that was stuck in traffic on a Miami freeway show me that he was just a normal guy who had an abnormal life. I stated in several threads that I got to see him walking around Universal Studios her in Orlando a few years back. It was after the second molestation trial and he had 4 huge bodyguards escorting him from shop to shop because there was a crowd of people following him. I'd be weird to if I couldn't just walk around without having people follow me, but he was calm and collected. I'll cherish that memory forever, because even though he didn't stop to speak to anyone or sign any autographs, the sheer excitement, awe, and joy that that crowd exuded was powerful and very moving to me. I don't care what anybody says; that man was the real deal and that's all I'm going to say about that.

something that has angered me since MJ's death is when the news reporters mention that "mj was the first black artist on mtv", giving no credit to Prince

.
[Edited 7/11/09 17:06pm]

minneapolisFunq said:

I don't know where that came from. Michael definitely wasn't the first Black Artist to be played on MTV.

One thing about Mike that always concerned me was his obsession with topping Thriller.

He was so driven to stay on top and so obsessed with making the next record bigger that I think the quality of his music suffered immensely.

After Bad, he started chasing trends and working with Producers of the Moment to make hit songs instead of making great music.

He worked with Teddy Riley a lot on Dangerous to get that New Jack Swing sound.

He always had great singles, but to me the album tracks weren't that strong after Bad.

He worked with R. Kelly and Biggie because they were "hot".

To me, the worst example of this was Invincible and his work with Rodney Jerkins. Invincible had been delayed for so long that by the time it came out, it sounded dated, IMO.

If "You Rock My World" would have came out in '96-'98 when Dark Child's sound was still new and fresh. It would've sounded so dope and been a much bigger hit.

I was really worried about the stuff he doing with people like Akon, Will.i.am., and Ne-Yo.

Again, he was working with the Hot Producers and Songwriters to get hit songs instead of trying to make great music.

Really, would working with Akon or Will.i.am make him any better than he all ready was?

Michael could always write and produce. Why wasn't he trying to write and produce by himself?