I wonder how sincere Madonna's tributes to MJ have been. She is one who is REAL quick to jump on anything trendy. Now, I do suspect she had a warmer, less complicated relationship with him than the one she had with Prince-those two are too much alike to exist peacefully-but I wonder if Madge really mourns MJ. She seems to care so little for anything other than herself.

In any case, she and P are the only icons we have left. Despite their faults and I love Prince unconditionally and I admit he is flawed, we need to treasure them NOW.

scriptgirl said:

No she really does love Michael. Even when they were still thought to be feuding I always got the feeling that Madonna adored him and really looked up to him. Just hearing things she has said early in her career and seeing the photos of them together its extremely obvious how she felt for him. Her ego was just too big in the 90's early 00's to act as though he affected her.

banks said:

I wondered about that. I was like "he's associated w/ the Jacksons? I really don't keep up" but I guess they wanted some musical variance.

Harlepolis said:

Was Farrakhan at the Memorial?

BaileyWalker said:

Without a shadow of a doubt, the Bad Tour in US/Europe '88 is Michael at his live peak. All songs live (although some bg vocals are looped).

First leg of the bad tour (Japan and Australia) was the same show as Victory with a new band, no brothers and a couple new songs. Very good also, but not a touch on the second leg.

By the end of the Bad tour (he went back to Japan and a few rescheduled dates in the US) he began to use loops on Man In the Mirror and Smooth Criminal.

The Dangerous Tour in 1992 was also a great show. However many songs were entirely looped.

Of course the Jacksons tour of 81 was also outstanding, and the Victory tour in 84 was decent.

However no good video of the full Bad Tour 88 is available. Your best bet is the yokohama concert from 1987, or the Dangerous show in Buharest in 92.

harbars said:

Nope. The last two songs were mimed, and it stayed that way throughout the tour. It was only in the first 1987 leg of the tour that he sang completely live, but as you mentioned the show was just The Victory Tour with two new songs tacked on the end. Unfortunately that meant there never was a perfect Bad concert, since his voice was damaged by the time it really became The Bad Tour in 1988. Still, his performances were great.

midnightmover said:

Well, there are many shows from Europe in '88 where it is entirely obvious that both TWYMMF & MITM have live lead vocals. Rotterdam show is a good example. It's so clear these are not looped due to mistakes and cracks etc.

harbars said:

Michael has never once sang the first half of MITM live.
[Edited 7/8/09 9:12am]

midnightmover said:

not to boots on this here forum! I'd get slapped!

Arnotts said:

And on that note...

In thinking about Michael Jackson's life, it saddens me that so many people will remember him as a freak. But in the same circumstances I probably would be considered the same. His Jehovah's Witness upbringing affected him and his later decisions just as it has affected my life. He was taught by his mother (just as I was taught by mine) that he would be blessed by Jehovah if only he followed all the Watchtower rules. He was taught that those who were non-JW would die in Armageddon. Black/white thinking and us/them mentality. Follow the rules. Avoid independent thinking, this world was short and nothing in it mattered. Contrast this to his father, who was "worldly," (not a JW) taking him to night clubs to perform, pushing him to make more money, telling him he was ugly, and beating the crap out of him. Watching Michael relate how he would faint or vomit when his father came into the room because he was so terrified of him brought back memories I'd rather forget.

You have to understand the extent of the brainwashing that comes from growing up in that religion. You are trained from day one to BELIEVE that you are going to live forever. It is ingrained in you from day one and you feel special. You are told over and over that if you just obey Jehovah you will have a young, beautiful body and never grow old. You can’t realize what the dream and TOTAL belief of this does to someone. They don’t live in reality. I didn’t for years. Even if you leave the religion, it takes years and years to get that mindset out of your brain. I still have moments where I find myself wishing with all my heart that the JWS are right and we could live forever with a perfect body. I believe that is why Michael kept having surgery. To stay young. To try to live that perfect dream...

He also had to be a martyr at school, (until they became tutored, I guess) not celebrating holidays or saluting the flag. Any way to make him feel like he was separate. As a kid, I felt like a total outcast when the holidays came. I wanted to hide under a school cabinet. But, my mother told me that I was to be proud for not participating in such "worldly" activities that looked like so much fun. I was told that if I wanted to be a part of it, I had Satan in my heart.

I always identified with and felt sorry for Michael Jackson. His life was hell as a child, as mine was. He was a puppet. He was idolized from childhood and yet was in a high control religion with an abusive father. He seemed to always be searching for happiness and acceptance, and it would appear his reversion to childhood daydreaming and fantasy is perhaps a longing for something that was missing from his life. So, I believe he lived vicariously through the children... reliving the childhood he never had. A young JW who was a victim of that vicious doublespeak. Someone who could never "stabilize" after being exposed to such dissonant thinking. Yes, he admitted to sleeping with children, but he says it was not sexual. After watching the in depth interview they did with him a few years ago, I believe it. Is it strange? Yes. Was it appropriate? No. Paying millions to settle out of court even when innocent is not uncommon. Consider the financial and emotional stakes involved in a trial; even if found innocent, he would still lose.

I never believed he was a molester. Look at all the kids who came to his defense. IMHO, although Michael was fodder for much humor around the court case and concerning his lifestyle, there are so many well known people who really knew him that I feel if he ever did what he was accused of, they would have dropped him like a hot potato. They are not hangers on or people that need his money. Larry King put himself on the line on CNN (with the accusers family) by saying he heard lawyers talking in a restaurant to the fact that these people were scamming Michael. So Larry went to the DA and told them he would testify, but they could not subpoena Larry as it was hearsay. He overheard it and could not testify on Michael's behalf...yet the lawyers knew Larry would not put his career on the line unless it was true.

Michael was tried by a jury (many of them were probably more than willing to see him go down for his alleged crime), yet they were unable to find ANY evidence to find him guilty, and I bet they would have loved to.

I studied the cases and it was obvious that the kid’s mother was a greedy, nasty, blackmailing liar whose stories never held up in a court of law. When the detectives searched Neverland and basically raped his home from top to bottom they did not find any clear evidence of wrong doing. Why do neither of his ex-wives have anything to say about him being a child molester or believing him to be. I think Lisa Marie would have said something if she thought he was a pedophile. She had nothing to lose or gain financially.

There are many things that don't add up on closer inspection of the so-called evidence. Follow the $$ signs. I've not got much use for a parent that will settle for a monetary settlement if they really believe their child was molested. First you make certain the criminal is behind bars so no others can be hurt by them, then you go for the monetary damages which you will get anyway after a conviction. You NEVER let someone who you feel is guilty get away and be allowed to do it again to another innocent child.

Michael was found INNOCENT of the crime. INNOCENT = NOT GUILTY

My point is, once an allegation like that has been made, it doesn't matter what you do or what any court finds there are always going to be those who will think of you as guilty. The father of one of the accusers said it was a "win win" situation for them to make these allegations. And it is the DA's job to prosecute. I think Michael made poor choices, and I think he didn't "get it" about his behavior, which was naive, but growing up the way he did contributed to his ideas of the way he wanted to live. I believe that he loved kids so much that the thought never crossed his mind that people would think he would hurt them.

He was a troubled man, misunderstood, and most probably improperly judged. I think it's clear he never found what he was searching for. A lot of Michael's psychological problems were caused by the horrific abuse he suffered at the hands of their abusive father. Joe Jackson was mentally, emotionally and physically abusive just as my mother was, and those scars stay with you for life. Believe me when I say I know this. My only sister killed herself at 39. She was abused and constantly told she was "Satan" in disguise.

Michael was emotionally stunted (so was I) which is why he had turned his life into a fairy-tale and preferred the company of innocent kids to adults. Children do not deliberately hurt you. I believe Michael was in pain and turmoil most of his life. The stage was his way of hiding from the pain for a little while but reality always came back when he left the stage...

He wanted to be a dad and show that he could do a better job of it than his own dad did. I think he wanted to remain child-like because he was cheated out of being one, and remaining child-like let him keep those humble and pure qualities. I think his heart was innocent and pure and he didn’t belong here. I think he did love God (Jehovah) and always felt like he let God down too somehow...

His was a lonely and isolated existence after all the accusations...except when he was performing. At least now he isn’t hurting anymore.

harbars said:

They only complain if it's a Prince bootleg. Anyway, like I said in my edited version of that post (you must have replied before I rewrote it), Mike has never once sang MITM live all the way through. He has not performed a single all live concert since 1987.

midnightmover said:

I'd question it even then.....

Graycap23 said:

Nah, midnightmover has put the truth-stamp on that statement so you can take it to the bank.

He sounded damn good too.

midnightmover said:

OK, I don't want to go round and round on this. I do have a couple shows where MITM drops out and it's obivous there are level issues - plus he makes mistakes - all during the first part before he goes mental. Of course, I have shows where it is also obviously looped.

But I would say regardless of this, the Bad 88 tour is still his "live peak", it's a close one with the '81 tour for an old git like me - but the additional tunes and presentation make it Bad '88 for me.

harbars said:

I just don't believe you about the first half of MITM, since it's completely at odds with every other version of the song I've heard. From when he first did it at the Grammys (and even in the Moonwalker version) he was always miming the first half and coming in live after the second chorus.

Arnotts said:

Michael was indeed a troubled soul- but he deserved and fought for his dignity. He was treated as if his self image- which was clearly a disability- was his own fault.

It's like telling a morbidly obese person that they deserve the repercussions of their illness- that they don't deserve to be dignified- that they are freeks and they can't be good parents. As debilitating as his quirks were- he was a human and looking on the human side of things- more people should have been open to helping instead of critisizin.

noimageatall said:

What a beautiful post, and it is sad how this society is quick to fall for the negative instead of the positive;find one guilty even before they get in front of a jury. Michael Joseph Jackson, is gone now, and has left a great music legacy. I believe that now he has finally found his peace and no one on this earth can ever hurt him again. May his soul forever rest in peace.
[Edited 7/8/09 9:43am]

midnightmover said:

No doubt whatsoever the majority of Grammy perf was looped, As was moonwalker clip (which was various shows edited togehter). And I don't doubt that many shows were looped. I've no reason to make it up! I'd love to hear the Feb 23rd show to see what happened there.

While I agree that Joe had a lot to do with why Michael had so many problems, Michael made plenty of mistakes himself.

I remember Quincy was saying how he would tell Michael to stop allowing kids to sleepover at his place, otherwise he would be in for a career downfall (because people could accuse him). Sadly that happened.

Michael only wanted to surround himself with Yes-man. The Yes-Man have cost Michael his life ultimately
[Edited 7/8/09 9:55am]

suga10 said:

I think it goes much deeper than that. Although, what Quincy told him was to try and help MJ protect his image, unfortunately it seems MJ was in a totally different mentality and didn't see it the way Quincy tried to make him understand, sad but true, and very unfortunate.

bboy87 said:

LMFAO! I was confused as hell when he started singing

scriptgirl said:

Seriously how can you tell somebody how they can mourn? She grew up on him just as we did.

EBONY Commemorative Issue

I was not telling Madonna how to mourn. I was questioning her sincerity
[Edited 7/8/09 10:22am]

I hope that one important thing comes out of all this, and that is the issue of child star exploitation.

Watching yesterday's memorial, it was obvious that nearly all of MJ's closest friends were child stars (Brooke Shields, Elizabeth Taylor, MacCauley Culkin, Emmanuel Lewis, Corey Feldman, etc). They were the only people he could relate to.

Michael is probably the most extreme case of child star exploitation. He performed very young, and never had his childhood. He was destined for self-destruction because he didn't have the structure and parental wisdom to balance his personal and professional lives.

Chic35 said:

something about that sentence cracks my ass up

Someone asked when was Michael's best concerts?

Chronicle the years 1969-1984.

Those were his finest years as an all around performer.

Se7en said:

Could it be argued that buying and listening to the old J5 stuff is supportive of such exploitation? People are vocal of their upset that Michael never had a childhood but they bought those early records and continue to listen to them. A child star can only be exploited if there is a consumer demand there for them.

Borrowed from another post but this is important for those (Fox News) that try to brush off Michael's humanitarian efforts:

Forget everything about Michael as an entertainer...as a musician..as a dancer..forget his influence on fashion, pop culture, etc.

Forget all of that...and look at this

January 10, 1984: Michael visits the unit for burn victims at
Brotman-Memorial Hospital in Los Angeles.

April 9, 1984: David Smithee, a 14-year-old boy who suffers from cystic fibroses is invited to Michael's home.
It was David's last wish to meet Michael. He dies 7 weeks later.

April 14, 1984: Michael equips a 19-bed-unit at Mount Sinai New York Medical Center. This center is part of the T.J. Martell-Foundation for leukemia and cancer research.

July 5, 1984: During the Jackson's press conference at Tavern On The Green, Michael announces that his part of the earnings from the Victory Tour will be donated to three charitable organizations:
The United Negro College Fund, Camp Good Times, and the T.J.
Martell-Foundation.

July 14, 1984: After the first concert of the Victory Tour, Michael
meets 8 terminally ill children backstage.

December 13, 1984:Michael visits the Brotman Memorial Hospital, where he had been treated when he was burned very badly during the producing of a Pepsi commercial.
He donates all the money he receives from Pepsi, $1.5 million, to the Michael Jackson Burn Center for Children.

January 28, 1985: Michael and 44 other artists meet to record "We Are The World", written by Michael and Lionel Ritchie.
The proceeds of this record are donated to the starving people in
Africa.

1986: Michael set up the "Michael Jackson UNCF Endowed Scholarship Fund".
This $1.5 million fund is aimed towards students majoring in performance art and communications, with money given each year to students attending a UNCF member college or university.

February 28, 1986: After having had a heart-transplant, 14-year-old
Donna Ashlock from California gets a call from Michael Jackson.
He had heard that she is a big fan of his.
Michael invites her to his home as soon as she is feeling better.
This visit takes place on March 8th. Donna stays for dinner and watches a movie together with Michael.

September 13, 1987: Michael supports a campaign against racism.
He supports efforts of the NAACP, to fight prejudices against black artists.

October 1987: At the end of his Bad Tour, Michael donates some personal items to the UNESCO for a charitable auction.
The proceeds will be for the education of children in developing
countries.

February 1, 1988: The Song "Man In the Mirror" enters the charts.
The proceeds from the sales of this record goes to Camp Ronald McDonald for Good Times, a camp for children who suffer from cancer.

March 1, 1988: At a press conference held by his sponsor Pepsi, Michael presents a $600,000 check to the United Negro College Fund.

April 1988: Free tickets are given away for three concerts in Atlanta,
Georgia to the Make A Wish Foundation.

May 22, 1988: Michael visits children who suffer from cancer in the
Bambini-Gesu Children's Hospital in Rome. He signs autographs and gives away sweets and records to the little patients. He promises a check of 100,000 pounds to the hospital.

July 16, 1988: Before a concert at Wembley Stadium Michael meets the Prince of Wales and his wife Diana. He hands over a check of 150,000 pounds for the Prince's Trust, and a check of 100,000 pounds for the children's hospital at Great Ormond Street.

July 20, 1988: Michael visits terminally ill children at Great Ormond
Street Hospital. At a unit for less critical patients he stays a little
bit longer and tells a story.

August 29, 1988: At his 30th birthday Michael performs a concert in
Leeds, England for the English charity-organization "Give For Life". The goal of this organization is the immunization of children. Michael presents a check for 65,000 pounds.

December 1988: Michael visits 12-year-old David Rothenburg. His father had 5 years earlier burned him very badly in an act of revenge against his former wife.

January 1989: The proceeds of one of Michael's shows in Los Angeles are donated to Childhelp USA, the biggest charity-organization against child-abuse. In appreciation of the contributions of Michael, Childhelp of Southern California is founding the "Michael Jackson International Institute for Research On Child Abuse".

January 10, 1989: The Bad Tour comes to an end. Under-privileged
children are donated tickets for each concert and Michael donates money to hospitals, orphanages and charity-organizations.

February 7, 1989: Michael visits the Cleveland Elementary School in
Stockton, California. Some weeks earlier a 25-year-old man had fired at the school's playground. 5 children had been killed and 39 had been wounded....

There's just too much to list them all....

The Millennium-Issue of the "Guinness Book Of Records" names Michael as the Pop Star who supports the most charity organizations. The following projects are supported by Michael Jackson:


AIDS Project L.A.
American Cancer Society
Angel Food
Big Brothers of Greater Los Angeles
BMI Foundation
Brotherhood Crusade
Brothman Burn Center
Camp Ronald McDonald
Childhelp U.S.A.
Children's Institute International
Cities and Schools Scholarship Fund
Community Youth Sports & Arts Foundation
Congressional Black Caucus
Dakar Foundation
Dreamstreet
Kids Dreams Come True Charity
Elizabeth Taylor Aids Foundation
Heal The World Foundation
Juvenile Diabetes Foundation
Love Match Make A Wish Foundation
Minority Aids Project
Motown Museum
NAACP
National Rainbow Coalition
Rotary Club of Australia
Society of Singers
Starlight Foundation
The Carter Center's Atlanta Project
The Sickle Cell Research Foundation
Transafrica
United Negro College Fund
Ladder's of Hope Volunteers of America
Watts Summer Festival Wish Granting
YMCA - 28th Street/Crenshaw
Big Brothers/Big Sisters of America

Michael Jackson Has Given More Than
$300+ Million to Charities

PRNelson said:

That's true too. Plus the boy was too damn gifted, it's a complex shame though because he DID want a normal life but he also lived life on the edge. He didn't reach a mid-point until later in life and even then he was still being pursued whenever he was.
[Edited 7/8/09 11:01am]