Timmy84 said:

I totally believe Otis cuz you can just see the deep contempt anything 'down home' was viewed in. Berry really wanted to bury Southern culture even as far back as 3D Record Mart (ie it specialiszed in bebop for those who don't know). Until Richard Street joined, ALL the Tempts were born 'Down Souf. I've heard Berry's views on "da boos" (ie the blues) and look at how Gladys, Shorty Long, Mable John, Jr. Walker, etc were treated. The Tempts are lucky they weren't ghettoized to the "Soul" label. The worst sin in Motown was being born Down Souf.

The part that makes me so sick is how so many of the acts were ripped off because their parents were from Down Souf....more than a few had illiterate parents even if they were born Up North (see Flo). That's a huge part of how Berry got over cuz he knew just how to play the game. Almost everyone at Motown were either directly Southern "immigrants" OR were 1st gen Northerners, Berry included. Even the Jacksons are 1st gen Northerners

Maybe all this explains why Smokey and Diane got such good treatment....they were the least Southern of the bunch. I'm convinced this is why Gladys an 'em got such shabby treatment...what else can explain how they were constantly ignored and their hits sabotaged?

I sure wish I could have seen that video on youtube of Florence Ballards children going off on Diana Ross before they removed it!

I bet they were dropping some mad bombshells too!

Why did Berry hate Southerners so much?

scriptgirl said:

Just a guess, but maybe because he felt that progress=Northern and in order for Black folks to move ahead, they must abandon the culture in which they were brought up. He's never said this outright that I know of, but plenty of his actions and those he supported implies he felt/feels that way.

Artist Development was created to teach these kids to be polished in a very specific way. Of course there was/is plenty of polish and style in the Southern approach, but he wanted them have a Northern style. If you know anything about Stax, just compare the acts from the two labels and it's clear what the difference.

The irony w/ this desire to drop Southern ways is that the style was big w/ the audiences Berry claimed he wanted to reach, young White America. Stax send Otis and 'em to Monterey Pop and they were a HUGE hit while being the epitome of a cetain Southern style from sound to look. The "down home boogie" style of rock was starting to happen then. The Allman Brothers, Taj Mahal, The Doobies, Janis Joplin, Eric Clapton's Derek and the Dominoes, and of course The Band were all about Southern identity as were many more acts.

Well one thing about Berry is he was never in touch w/ the times really. Script you love DeBarge and they are prime proof. How many NON Motown acts lacked videos before 1985?
[Edited 6/25/09 13:22pm]

Timmy...I think Mary Wells' folks came from Georgia. Don't ask me where I read that, but Georgia comes to mind. The Womacks come out of West Virginia.
Let me ask you, tho you're in your 20s, did the name Friendly surprise you for a Black guy of a certain age (70+)? I didn't even blink at that one.

About M25, I'm hoping at that footage gets released one day cuz Diane went straight gangsta on the "family". Even in the stuff that aired, she looked out of it w/ lipstick on her teeth and a run in her stockings Mary gave a shout out to Flo that got cut out. That should be seen, IMHO. I wanna see Di grab the nic from Mary's hands....damn!

OK y'all what did Flo's girls say about Diane's book? Darn I wish I'd
seen that one on YT cuz I've always wondered what her girls thought.

Berry sending three black women to the Copacabana singing songs they didn't even grow up with shows you how out of tune he was... I heard neither Flo, Diane or Mary thought the standards were anything. I heard Diane and Berry often argued over it until Diane eventually agreed to do what she was told to do. She really had no choice. Of course Flo and Mary didn't have no share in the matter, they were just the hired help.

Timmy84 said:

Not just 3 Black women, but three YOUNG Black women. Pearly Bailey and Eartha Kitt did great w/ that stuff, but I'll never understand why he wanted that for them.

Flo and Mary were raised in the old ways. Diane should have recruited them and fought him on it. If all those girls fought like hell, maybe Berry would not have gotten away w/ it, but they just did what they were told. Ya know, I'm starting to rethink what you said about The Copa. I didn't think it was as bad as it was until the Flo convo started, it WAS the beginning of the end.

brooksie said:

No it didn't. Hell I heard far worse! Friendly is actually a common name, I just never heard of anyone in my family with that name, you know?

You know looking back, Diana look like she was HIGH on something. I heard Diane's brother said Diane "indulged". It look like she was drunk. And she actually ran to the stage! So I can imagine how out of it she looked but Mary was using too back then. Only Cindy didn't know what the hell was going on with those two.

Timmy84 said:

I was gonna post some far more unusual names as examples, but I thought the better of it. Somebody might recognize their names and come after me! Southern proper names can be interesting, to say the least, but the nicknames are off the chain. Best Motown example SMOKEY anyone!
I WILL NOT explain that one!

It's said Diana was constantly drinking congnac backstage cuz she had a cold . In retrospect, people certainly missed the drinking problem that later came out.

We're NOT talked about Cindy, Miz Flo's replacement, so far. I never thought she fit the group at all. For a girl that came from the Bluebells, she seemed surprisingly soul deficient. She looked a bit like Flo...from a distance, but she seems an odd choice for a replacement. I blame her for how much the Andantes were brought into later Supremes stuff!

When we find out this stuff about Diane NOW, it's makes it all the worse for the excuses and shade thrown over Flo all those years. It turns out that Di had these issues going way back, but it was hidden.

Mary had problems? I thought she was just addicted to dick!

Cindy seems nice, but I didn't know she cut out on Patti and 'em like that. I know Motown and the Bluebells crossed paths many times in the 60s, but I can't help but think Cindy was chosen for looks alone.

Wait, what is this about Diana pushing Mary at Motown 25?

Wait, what is this about Diana pushing Mary at Motown 25?

scriptgirl said:

In addition to what Timmy said, this happened in front of a live audience and it was reported in the papers at the time, but these incidents were edited out of the show that was broadcast. Adam Ant was there and Diana had a really odd moment w/ him too that was broadcast. (He was very popular w/ Black folks and if I remember, the only non Motown act there) Even what was broadcast had Diane acting very stangely w/ everyone she interacted w/ including Berry. I was only 8 when it 1st aired and could only stay up to see The Jacksons and MJ , but I saw the whole thing when I was fully grown. The whole show was a HAM on Diana's part. She was super wired, slurring her words, and her hair, stockings and lipstick disaster! The strangest thing is that she climbed on a piano or something in the end scene when they were all on stage.

If you saw her Divas Live performance in the late 90s-early 00s, that wasn't nearly as bad as M25 even w/ that clown wig she was rockin'.

DeBarge was killer on M25, BTW.

Timmy, do you recall if Rick James was there?

I don't think Rick was. But yeah I gotta see that (not just for Mike but for Diana too).

Timmy84 said:

I didn't recall Rick being there, but I haven't seen it for several years. Odd he wasn't there, eh? Maybe they will show M25 soon cuz just the other day VH1 showed the Jackson's movie and VH! Classic is running the Temps film. I need to see Motown and all our favs at their very best.

Why on earth was Adam Ant popular with black people? I have never heard that.

Now that I think of it, none of the Rick James "family" was there. No Teena Marie, No Mary Jane Girls, No Process and The Doo Rags... :humm2:

As for the Debarges, I thought they'd said what their background was. Seems like there was a pic or two of MamaD out then, esp. after James got w/ Janet but I know I didn't see PapaD until Unsung.