New topic
PrintableTimmy84 said: brooksie said: I think he went for the Supremes because of DIANA'S sound. Her smallish high registered slightly nasal voice was quite different that what was popular for Black female singers. Most had rather full and well rounded voices w/ some gospel influence, but Diana is notable for the complete absence of any of these things. Diana's voice had a quality that was both new and very delicate. I think this is why he stuck w/ them for 4 hitless years cuz he wanted THAT VOICE to hit it's stride. I'm always surprised that Smokey failed w/ them and did so for so long. He's the one who got Mary Wells to successfully move to a softer higher registered sound, but he fails w/ The Supremes? 
[Edited 6/24/09 12:14pm] The reason they couldn't find a hit was because they couldn't tell Diana shit back then. She thought she could hang singing in that nasal tone. It wasn't until giving "that crappy song" "Where Did Our Love Go" where she changed her vocal register that things change. Oh and the fact that technically Holland-Dozier-Holland had by that point began to find the niche that made them the producing stars of the Motown label eclipsing Smokey. Also to put it lightly, Diana was the Eartha Kitt of R&B in a VOCAL sense. [Edited 6/24/09 12:36pm] The thing is, Diana didn't have much power then and almost no choice over material. Later she could be difficult, but she and the girls performed what they were given w/o much grumbling...after all, the were the HITLESS Supremes, so their position was shakey. The hitless Supremes were that way not because of her, but because of the production. Smokey just couldn't find what was right for the group, but HDH capitalized on their harmonizing skills. The Supremes lucked up to actually get something to work after all those hitless years. Look at what happened to Brenda Holloway and Kim Weston.  | |
- E-mail - orgNote -  Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: The reason they couldn't find a hit was because they couldn't tell Diana shit back then. She thought she could hang singing in that nasal tone. It wasn't until giving "that crappy song" "Where Did Our Love Go" where she changed her vocal register that things change. Oh and the fact that technically Holland-Dozier-Holland had by that point began to find the niche that made them the producing stars of the Motown label eclipsing Smokey. Also to put it lightly, Diana was the Eartha Kitt of R&B in a VOCAL sense. [Edited 6/24/09 12:36pm] The thing is, Diana didn't have much power then and almost no choice over material. Later she could be difficult, but she and the girls performed what they were given w/o much grumbling...after all, the were the HITLESS Supremes, so their position was shakey. The hitless Supremes were that way not because of her, but because of the production. Smokey just couldn't find what was right for the group, but HDH capitalized on their harmonizing skills. The Supremes lucked up to actually get something to work after all those hitless years. Look at what happened to Brenda Holloway and Kim Weston. That's because Berry KICKED them to the curb. Obviously the only other Motown diva that hung on in there besides Gladys was MARTHA and that's because, like Diana, she did everything else (background, secretarial work, even choreography for the Vandellas) to make sure her group got enough leverage as with the Supremes but overall when Berry made Diana "the feature" rather than "The Supremes", that's when everybody from the first line of Motown artists started to exit. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: brooksie said: The thing is, Diana didn't have much power then and almost no choice over material. Later she could be difficult, but she and the girls performed what they were given w/o much grumbling...after all, the were the HITLESS Supremes, so their position was shakey. The hitless Supremes were that way not because of her, but because of the production. Smokey just couldn't find what was right for the group, but HDH capitalized on their harmonizing skills. The Supremes lucked up to actually get something to work after all those hitless years. Look at what happened to Brenda Holloway and Kim Weston. That's because Berry KICKED them to the curb. Obviously the only other Motown diva that hung on in there besides Gladys was MARTHA and that's because, like Diana, she did everything else (background, secretarial work, even choreography for the Vandellas) to make sure her group got enough leverage as with the Supremes but overall when Berry made Diana "the feature" rather than "The Supremes", that's when everybody from the first line of Motown artists started to exit. He didn't kick Holloway or Weston to the curb, that's just it. He kept them on ice. The fact that he wouldn't/couldn't find great material for them NOR would he let them go elsewhere caused some big problems. He lost Mickey Stevenson behind how he did Weston...as she was his wife. The way Berry played it sometimes was puzzling, to say the least. Losing both Stevenson and HDH around 1967 caused more problems than merely losing acts, IMHO. The real deal wasn't that the artists left, but that he simply abandoned them. Once Diana and The Tempts were happening and HDH left, he just took off w/ his stars and new discoveries to Hwood...the J5. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: That's because Berry KICKED them to the curb. Obviously the only other Motown diva that hung on in there besides Gladys was MARTHA and that's because, like Diana, she did everything else (background, secretarial work, even choreography for the Vandellas) to make sure her group got enough leverage as with the Supremes but overall when Berry made Diana "the feature" rather than "The Supremes", that's when everybody from the first line of Motown artists started to exit. He didn't kick Holloway or Weston to the curb, that's just it. He kept them on ice. The fact that he wouldn't/couldn't find great material for them NOR would he let them go elsewhere caused some big problems. He lost Mickey Stevenson behind how he did Weston...as she was his wife. The way Berry played it sometimes was puzzling, to say the least. Losing both Stevenson and HDH around 1967 caused more problems than merely losing acts, IMHO. The real deal wasn't that the artists left, but that he simply abandoned them. Once Diana and The Tempts were happening and HDH left, he just took off w/ his stars and new discoveries to Hwood...the J5. Berry was a different person by 1967. HDH, Mickey and 'em knew it. That's why they left. For some of the artists, it was the way they went around it often defying Berry (Marvin, Stevie, Diana in her later years on the label, etc.) I guess put them on ice or kick 'em to the curb both makes sense because he just simply didn't promote them anymore. Once he found someone that was willing to crawl on broken glass literally just to PLEASE him (not saying the others weren't, that's why Martha kept hanging around until Berry and Motown left Detroit in 1972), then the other artists both male and female were just put aside. Marvin & Stevie proved to be the biggest successes Motown had in the 1970s besides the Jackson 5 and Diana had to wait until 1980 to have a Supremes-like success rate with "diana", as we know now, even with Diana's 1970s successes, she was under-promoted musically while promoted as a Vegas showgirl/nightclub lounge singer for much of the decade. Berry was trying to make her the Barbra Streisand of R&B...with less than prodigious results. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: brooksie said: He didn't kick Holloway or Weston to the curb, that's just it. He kept them on ice. The fact that he wouldn't/couldn't find great material for them NOR would he let them go elsewhere caused some big problems. He lost Mickey Stevenson behind how he did Weston...as she was his wife. The way Berry played it sometimes was puzzling, to say the least. Losing both Stevenson and HDH around 1967 caused more problems than merely losing acts, IMHO. The real deal wasn't that the artists left, but that he simply abandoned them. Once Diana and The Tempts were happening and HDH left, he just took off w/ his stars and new discoveries to Hwood...the J5. Berry was a different person by 1967. HDH, Mickey and 'em knew it. That's why they left. For some of the artists, it was the way they went around it often defying Berry (Marvin, Stevie, Diana in her later years on the label, etc.) I guess put them on ice or kick 'em to the curb both makes sense because he just simply didn't promote them anymore. Once he found someone that was willing to crawl on broken glass literally just to PLEASE him (not saying the others weren't, that's why Martha kept hanging around until Berry and Motown left Detroit in 1972), then the other artists both male and female were just put aside. Marvin & Stevie proved to be the biggest successes Motown had in the 1970s besides the Jackson 5 and Diana had to wait until 1980 to have a Supremes-like success rate with "diana", as we know now, even with Diana's 1970s successes, she was under-promoted musically while promoted as a Vegas showgirl/nightclub lounge singer for much of the decade. Berry was trying to make her the Barbra Streisand of R&B...with less than prodigious results. Berry was smelling his butt by 1967 (which is why most of the blame for Flo goes to him, IMHO). The big key was the Copa, Vegas, and the like. By '67 he's tried all the major acts in those venues and I guess he did some weeding based on the results. Diana as Babs cracks me up really. After all that hustling to get young White folks to listen, he drops them for their parents?  I have to say that the Copa ambition always left me  . It seems odd that he wanted them to be big hits w/ such an old crowd when he should have been pushing for the young hip people. In most of the 70s, Diana did lots of lame stuff like "Reach Out and Touch". This is why Motown fascinates me so much. I can't think of any other company run so eccentrically.[Edited 6/24/09 13:32pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: Berry was a different person by 1967. HDH, Mickey and 'em knew it. That's why they left. For some of the artists, it was the way they went around it often defying Berry (Marvin, Stevie, Diana in her later years on the label, etc.) I guess put them on ice or kick 'em to the curb both makes sense because he just simply didn't promote them anymore. Once he found someone that was willing to crawl on broken glass literally just to PLEASE him (not saying the others weren't, that's why Martha kept hanging around until Berry and Motown left Detroit in 1972), then the other artists both male and female were just put aside. Marvin & Stevie proved to be the biggest successes Motown had in the 1970s besides the Jackson 5 and Diana had to wait until 1980 to have a Supremes-like success rate with "diana", as we know now, even with Diana's 1970s successes, she was under-promoted musically while promoted as a Vegas showgirl/nightclub lounge singer for much of the decade. Berry was trying to make her the Barbra Streisand of R&B...with less than prodigious results. Berry was smelling his butt by 1967 (which is why most of the blame for Flo goes to him, IMHO). The big key was the Copa, Vegas, and the like. By '67 he's tried all the major acts in those venues and I guess he did some wedding based on the results. Diana as Babs cracks me up really. I have to say that the Copa ambition always left me . It seems odd that he wanted them to be big hits w/ such an old crowd when he should have been pushing for the young hip people. In most of the 70s, Diana did lots of lame stuff like "Reach Out and Touch". This is why Motown fascinates me so much. I can't think of no other company run so eccentrically.I also thought it was strange, having a girl group considered part of the classic rock 'n' roll era doing Gershwin and Rodgers and Hammerstein but if I remember correctly, the only other girl group doing that was Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles with "Danny Boy" and "You'll Never Walk Alone". I think he spied on what they were doing and thought "this is what I will do with the Supremes" and since to him Diana was in a way a Doris Day or Barbra, he wanted them to go that route to which Flo was like "oh hell naw". Difference b/w the Supremes doing standards and the Bluebelles was the latter group brought out the soul and emotion such a song like that needed, the Supremes just sung it as if it was wax paper. Just thin and dry. Hell the Temptations did better renditions of standards than they did. Same with Marvin once he stopped acting as if he was the next Nat Cole ("Vulnerable").
Also I think the Shirelles could've swept people off their damn feet being themselves at the Copa (as Sam Cooke discovered after failing in 1959 but returning triumphant in 1964 singing in his gospel style to a thrilling audience). He just made the Supremes seem more tamer than what they really were. Their non-pop standard recordings consisted of some of the best pop music to EVER come out of the '60s. [Edited 6/24/09 13:39pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: brooksie said: Berry was smelling his butt by 1967 (which is why most of the blame for Flo goes to him, IMHO). The big key was the Copa, Vegas, and the like. By '67 he's tried all the major acts in those venues and I guess he did some wedding based on the results. Diana as Babs cracks me up really. I have to say that the Copa ambition always left me . It seems odd that he wanted them to be big hits w/ such an old crowd when he should have been pushing for the young hip people. In most of the 70s, Diana did lots of lame stuff like "Reach Out and Touch". This is why Motown fascinates me so much. I can't think of no other company run so eccentrically.I also thought it was strange, having a girl group considered part of the classic rock 'n' roll era doing Gershwin and Rodgers and Hammerstein but if I remember correctly, the only other girl group doing that was Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles with "Danny Boy" and "You'll Never Walk Alone". I think he spied on what they were doing and thought "this is what I will do with the Supremes" and since to him Diana was in a way a Doris Day or Barbra, he wanted them to go that route to which Flo was like "oh hell naw". Difference b/w the Supremes doing standards and the Bluebelles was the latter group brought out the soul and emotion such a song like that needed, the Supremes just sung it as if it was wax paper. Just thin and dry. Hell the Temptations did better renditions of standards than they did. Same with Marvin once he stopped acting as if he was the next Nat Cole ("Vulnerable").I've always wanted to hear Marvin's "crooner" record in full. The little I heard was quite good. If Berry wanted Nat Jr, Marvin was the vocalist at Motown who could have pulled it off, methinks. The Temps singing backup to Diana on "Do You Know The Way To Santa Jose" is just painful...painful!
Patti and 'em definitely could do some soul w/ standards, as did Jackie Wilson, but that wasn't their primary thing. The puzzling part for the Supremes was he tried to make that their thing. Even their HDH stuff was rather staid when compared to what else was going on then, but it seems odd that Berry wanted to pass up the Monterey folks for the Sinatra heads. These tendencies are why Nelson George can be so salty about it sometimes and I don't disagree w/ his reasoning either. I'm amazed Motown wasn't clowned more back then behind that kinda foolishness. It probably did more to harm the acts than help, but hindsight is 20/20. Then he goes on to push the J5 in that direction too...sheesh!
Confession...my fav Motown acts in the 60s were the "Soul" label folks. [Edited 6/24/09 13:49pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: I also thought it was strange, having a girl group considered part of the classic rock 'n' roll era doing Gershwin and Rodgers and Hammerstein but if I remember correctly, the only other girl group doing that was Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles with "Danny Boy" and "You'll Never Walk Alone". I think he spied on what they were doing and thought "this is what I will do with the Supremes" and since to him Diana was in a way a Doris Day or Barbra, he wanted them to go that route to which Flo was like "oh hell naw". Difference b/w the Supremes doing standards and the Bluebelles was the latter group brought out the soul and emotion such a song like that needed, the Supremes just sung it as if it was wax paper. Just thin and dry. Hell the Temptations did better renditions of standards than they did. Same with Marvin once he stopped acting as if he was the next Nat Cole ("Vulnerable").I've always wanted to hear Marvin's "crooner" record in full. The little I heard was quite good. If Berry wanted Nat Jr, Marvin was the vocalist at Motown who could have pulled it off, methinks. The Temps singing backup to Diana on "Do You Know The Way To Santa Jose" is just painful...painful!
Patti and 'em definitely could do some soul w/ standards, as did Jackie Wilson, but that wasn't their primary thing. The puzzling part for the Supremes was he tried to make that their thing. Even their HDH stuff was rather staid when compared to what else was going on then, but it seems odd that Berry wanted to pass up the Monterey folks for the Sinatra heads. These tendencies are why Nelson George can be so salty about it sometimes and I don't dosagree w/ his reasoning either. I'm amazed Motown wasn't clowned more back then behind that kinda foolishness. It probably did more to harm the acts than help, but hindsight is 20/20. Then he goes on to push the J5 in that direction too...sheesh!
Confession...my fav Motown acts in the 60s were the "Soul" label folks. The Temptations doing background for Diana is painful enough but with THAT song. Good Lord, I'm gonna find some videos and post them talking about doing that and more. It's the Motown version of the Supremes story so be careful a lot of airbrushing the facts.
You know what else was odd: Martha and the Vandellas were probably one of the only Motown groups to do Monterrey-like shit. I saw a bill from a 1960s vintage poster and they were on some lineup. You don't see the Supremes or Tempts on there. If Marvin had been up to it, he'd be there too (at one of those pop festivals). | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
In fact, look at what I found:
Now tell me where's the same thing for the Supremes and the Temptations?!
That's why I'm a VANDELLA/MARVELETTE head. They were the rock 'n' roll to the Supremes pop. Sure the Vandellas did the Copa but they didn't abandon the kids (even if the charts reflected that but that was because of Martha's stressful period). | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: In fact, look at what I found:
Now tell me where's the same thing for the Supremes and the Temptations?!
That's why I'm a VANDELLA/MARVELETTE head. They were the rock 'n' roll to the Supremes pop. Sure the Vandellas did the Copa but they didn't abandon the kids (even if the charts reflected that but that was because of Martha's stressful period). I knew they'd done some of the ballrooms and that's why I say (and fully wonder) why Berry ditched Martha. Martha was actually quite cool and had major crossover appeal, to the youth!
Motown also had the Mynah Birds. Oh my  , they missed the cool people who were older than the J5 crowd and younger than the Frank Sinatra group.
The songs I recall being covered by the Brit bands were VanDellas, Marvelettes, and and a few others, but almost never Supremes. That came later w/ Phil Collins!  [Edited 6/24/09 14:07pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: In fact, look at what I found:
Now tell me where's the same thing for the Supremes and the Temptations?!
That's why I'm a VANDELLA/MARVELETTE head. They were the rock 'n' roll to the Supremes pop. Sure the Vandellas did the Copa but they didn't abandon the kids (even if the charts reflected that but that was because of Martha's stressful period). I knew they'd done some of the ballrooms and that's why I say (and fully wonder) why Berry ditched Martha. Martha was actually quite cool and had major crossover appeal, to the youth!
Motown also had the Mynah Birds. Oh my , they missed the cool people who were older than the J5 crowd and younger than the Frank Sinatra group.
The songs I recall being covered by the Brit bands were VanDellas, Marvelettes, and and a few others, but almost never Supremes. That came later w/ Phil Collins!
[Edited 6/24/09 14:07pm] Even today I don't hear the Supremes' music being covered that much. But you always hear the Vandellas and Marvelettes in Britain. 
Even some say the Supremes music don't hold up as well as the other girl groups. Hell you hear more groups covering "LADY MARMALADE" more than "Stop! In the Name of Love". That should tell you something! [Edited 6/24/09 14:18pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: Even today I don't hear the Supremes' music being covered that much. But you always hear the Vandellas and Marvelettes in Britain.
Even some say the Supremes music don't hold up as well as the other girl groups. Hell you hear more groups covering "LADY MARMALADE" more than "Stop! In the Name of Love". That should tell you something! [Edited 6/24/09 14:18pm] Part of the reason I think you don't hear them covered is because the best part was the Funk Brothers' playing. The arrangements were fussy and don't lend themselves to pop-rock coverage. HDH, bless 'em, shoulda been writing for Mel Torme! They didn't have much success outside of Motown because what other YOUNG act wanted to sound like they were singing for Nelson Riddle, in 1973? 
The Bluebells were funky stuff...great rnb w/ a hellified look. The Supremes were like fake Doris Days. I will never understand why Berry pushed them to the Copa in 1965 cuz they lacked stage experience. A few Motortown Revues can't compare to the artistry that the truely great MoR stage people had. Those folks were on a whole 'nother level and get much respek from moi! For me, the only Black rock n rollers who really had it were Sam and Jackie, they had the versatility to please both crowds. You needed to be cool, hot, and natural to pull off both MoR and rock at the same time. The Supremes seemed strained when trying to do that stuff. Some of those clips of them doing standards is like  .
Funny thing about it is that Flo, if she could have had more leads, was probably the best fit for EVENTUAL MoR success. 1965 was way too early, but her voice was the most mature of the 3 and had that full quality that MoR tended to favor. [Edited 6/24/09 14:34pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
who are Kim Weston and Brenda Holloway?
so that guy who raped Flo was already a Detroit Piston? "Lack of home training crosses all boundaries." | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
scriptgirl said: who are Kim Weston and Brenda Holloway?
so that guy who raped Flo was already a Detroit Piston? Yeah it was. Here's info on Kim & Brenda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Weston - she's the female vocalist/duet partner behind Marvin in "It Takes Two". http://en.wikipedia.org/w...a_Holloway - she's the original vocalist behind "Every Little Bit Hurts" and "You've Made Me So Very Happy". | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
scriptgirl said: who are Kim Weston and Brenda Holloway?
so that guy who raped Flo was already a Detroit Piston? No, he wasn't a Piston when he raped Flo, but he was headed there. He was in college then (Eastern Michigan) but he was one of those athletes who had star written on them and were treated specially from his HS days. It was one of those situations he was protected from consequences by 'important people' who wanted him to go on to the big leagues. He played for the Pistons from 62 and had a few good years, but kept getting in trouble w/ the law. They dropped him by about 66-67. Kim Weston was, in addition to being a singer, married to Motown's head of AnR, Mickey Stevenson. This guy was w/ Motown from the Rayber days and was incredibly important cuz he played far more roles than merely AnR. When Motown lost him, it was a big blow. [Edited 6/24/09 14:57pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: scriptgirl said: who are Kim Weston and Brenda Holloway?
so that guy who raped Flo was already a Detroit Piston? No, he wasn't a Piston when he raped Flo, but he was headed there. He was in college then (Eastern Michigan) but he was one of those athletes who had star written on them and were treated specially from his HS days. It was one of those situations he was protected from consequences by 'important people' who wanted him to go on to the big leagues. He played for the Pistons from 62 and had a few good years, but kept getting in trouble w/ the law. They dropped him by about 66-67. Kim Weston was, in addition to being a singer, married to Motown's head of AnR, Mickey Stevenson. This guy was w/ Motown from the Rayber days and was incredibly important cuz he played far more roles than merely AnR. When Motown lost him, it was a big blow. [Edited 6/24/09 14:57pm] Mickey formed the Motown in-house band, I think they didn't have a name like "The Funk Brothers" until around 1967 or 1968. Motown refused to give the band an identity like Stax did Booker T. and the MG's, the Bar-Kays and the Philly sound did with MFSB and Barry White's Love Unlimited Orchestra and the SOLAR sound in Los Angeles. But it was MICKEY who formed them, Mickey set up a lot of the A&R meetings with Motown hopefuls. Martha Reeves helped out as his secretary and also had a hand in setting up the auditions. Mickey also wrote many of Motown's early hits and sung on the background of them. He was very hands-on and his loss was a total blow to the Motown empire for sure. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: brooksie said: No, he wasn't a Piston when he raped Flo, but he was headed there. He was in college then (Eastern Michigan) but he was one of those athletes who had star written on them and were treated specially from his HS days. It was one of those situations he was protected from consequences by 'important people' who wanted him to go on to the big leagues. He played for the Pistons from 62 and had a few good years, but kept getting in trouble w/ the law. They dropped him by about 66-67. Kim Weston was, in addition to being a singer, married to Motown's head of AnR, Mickey Stevenson. This guy was w/ Motown from the Rayber days and was incredibly important cuz he played far more roles than merely AnR. When Motown lost him, it was a big blow. [Edited 6/24/09 14:57pm] Mickey formed the Motown in-house band, I think they didn't have a name like "The Funk Brothers" until around 1967 or 1968. Motown refused to give the band an identity like Stax did Booker T. and the MG's, the Bar-Kays and the Philly sound did with MFSB and Barry White's Love Unlimited Orchestra and the SOLAR sound in Los Angeles. But it was MICKEY who formed them, Mickey set up a lot of the A&R meetings with Motown hopefuls. Martha Reeves helped out as his secretary and also had a hand in setting up the auditions. Mickey also wrote many of Motown's early hits and sung on the background of them. He was very hands-on and his loss was a total blow to the Motown empire for sure. Mickey came into Motown via Raynoma. They grew up together from way back. He answered their Rayber ad and it was like "hey you...long time no see". Mickey was BIG stuff and when he left, Berry called Raynoma to come back because those two were the brains behind the sound. Mickey really resented the lack of promo Kim got. He could hook her up w/ songs, but had little to do w/ promo. He also wanted points. I believe they started crediting them as "The Funk Brothers around 1966. About Brenda Holloway...she was the reason the Supremes got on the Dick Clark tour that ultimately ended up blowing up "Baby Love". Dick wanted Brenda and Motown made him take The Supremes to get her. It as released while they were on the tour and by then end, it was a smash. Ironic that Brenda helped enable their breakout success. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: Even today I don't hear the Supremes' music being covered that much. But you always hear the Vandellas and Marvelettes in Britain.
Even some say the Supremes music don't hold up as well as the other girl groups. Hell you hear more groups covering "LADY MARMALADE" more than "Stop! In the Name of Love". That should tell you something! [Edited 6/24/09 14:18pm] Part of the reason I think you don't hear them covered is because the best part was the Funk Brothers' playing. The arrangements were fussy and don't lend themselves to pop-rock coverage. HDH, bless 'em, shoulda been writing for Mel Torme! They didn't have much success outside of Motown because what other YOUNG act wanted to sound like they were singing for Nelson Riddle, in 1973?
The Bluebells were funky stuff...great rnb w/ a hellified look. The Supremes were like fake Doris Days. I will never understand why Berry pushed them to the Copa in 1965 cuz they lacked stage experience. A few Motortown Revues can't compare to the artistry that the truely great MoR stage people had. Those folks were on a whole 'nother level and get much respek from moi! For me, the only Black rock n rollers who really had it were Sam and Jackie, they had the versatility to please both crowds. You needed to be cool, hot, and natural to pull off both MoR and rock at the same time. The Supremes seemed strained when trying to do that stuff. Some of those clips of them doing standards is like .
Funny thing about it is that Flo, if she could have had more leads, was probably the best fit for EVENTUAL MoR success. 1965 was way too early, but her voice was the most mature of the 3 and had that full quality that MoR tended to favor. [Edited 6/24/09 14:34pm] The Supremes IMHO bombed when they did the Copa. They sold their soul to appear something other than what they weren't and they were called "sell-outs". Something Mary Wilson to this day doesn't understand. I'm sure Diana or Flo could've care less. Diana was pleasing the boss and Flo didn't give a fuck. But yeah the Bluebelles compared to the Supremes were UNIQUE. Patti had - and still has - a unique voice. The only thing unique about Diana was her vocals were strange and it stood out but after a while you wanna click off the radio when you hear her cooing "baby love!" UGH! Give me "WALK ON...WALK ON...WALK ON..." anyday!  [Edited 6/24/09 15:35pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: Mickey formed the Motown in-house band, I think they didn't have a name like "The Funk Brothers" until around 1967 or 1968. Motown refused to give the band an identity like Stax did Booker T. and the MG's, the Bar-Kays and the Philly sound did with MFSB and Barry White's Love Unlimited Orchestra and the SOLAR sound in Los Angeles. But it was MICKEY who formed them, Mickey set up a lot of the A&R meetings with Motown hopefuls. Martha Reeves helped out as his secretary and also had a hand in setting up the auditions. Mickey also wrote many of Motown's early hits and sung on the background of them. He was very hands-on and his loss was a total blow to the Motown empire for sure. Mickey came into Motown via Raynoma. They grew up together from way back. He answered their Rayber ad and it was like "hey you...long time no see". Mickey was BIG stuff and when he left, Berry called Raynoma to come back because those two were the brains behind the sound. Mickey really resented the lack of promo Kim got. He could hook her up w/ songs, but had little to do w/ promo. He also wanted points. I believe they started crediting them as "The Funk Brothers around 1966. About Brenda Holloway...she was the reason the Supremes got on the Dick Clark tour that ultimately ended up blowing up "Baby Love". Dick wanted Brenda and Motown made him take The Supremes to get her. It as released while they were on the tour and by then end, it was a smash. Ironic that Brenda helped enable their breakout success. VERY strange considering Brenda would've blown up if Motown had not set that up! And Raynoma did a LOT for Motown. Don't get fucking credit for that shit. In fact Raynoma, Gwen, Anna, Esther Gordy, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells and Martha & the original Vandellas did more to make MOTOWN a lasting label. Everything else was just covered by the Supremes. Strange thing is the Supremes were the first girl group (though not the first female artists - Claudette Robinson of the Miracles, Mable John and Mary Wells came before them) and yet it took until 1964 and Diana's "vocal change" to suddenly "TAKE OFF!" But hell the Shirelles had more pop/soul appeal than the Supremes did.
I kinda feel bad saying this but I think the Supremes get too much credit for stuff they didn't pioneer. Only things they really paved for were Motown's integration into supper clubs and Motown pushing the Tempts, the Jackson 5 and the Four Tops (who also did standards very well). Hell the Dells did standards better than the Supremes! Oh and they were the first girl group with a number-one album or two, lol.
The oddest thing is Flo "founded" the group, had the strongest of the three vocalists, and yet she wasn't giving a LOT of leads in their recordings either before or during her run in the group.
Yeah she's definitely "unsung" in that regard because Motown and Lupine don't have a whole lot of tracks of Flo singing lead except for some 1960-1961 recordings that were never issued on record before. [Edited 6/24/09 15:36pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: The Supremes IMHO bombed when they did the Copa. They sold their soul to appear something other than they weren't and they were called "sell-outs". Something Mary Wilson to this day doesn't understand. I'm sure Diana or Flo could've care less. Diana was pleasing the boss and Flo didn't give a fuck. But yeah the Bluebelles compared to the Supremes were UNIQUE. Patti had - and still has - a unique voice. The only thing unique about Diana was her vocals were strange and it stood out but after a while you wanna click off the radio when you hear her cooing "baby love!" UGH! Give me "WALK ON...WALK ON...WALK ON..." anyday! Oh Mary..bless her, but that child ain't the brightest. I think she STILL doesn't understand what happened, not to Flo, Diana, Motown, and herself. She's got a pretty face and was a "connoisseur of men" to the max, but Mary's kinda like froth on beer. I DO think Flo wasn't too happy about the Copa and what it meant, but felt she had no choice (which was true). She seemed most comfortable w/ herself and the rnb thing, but Diana was the upwardly mobile one. I think Di was cool w/ it while Flo fumed, but Mary...it just went over her head!
In fairness to Diana, she had a very good emotive quality that's improved w/ the years. Her voice could handle those incredibly overproduced HDH comps nicely. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: The Supremes IMHO bombed when they did the Copa. They sold their soul to appear something other than they weren't and they were called "sell-outs". Something Mary Wilson to this day doesn't understand. I'm sure Diana or Flo could've care less. Diana was pleasing the boss and Flo didn't give a fuck. But yeah the Bluebelles compared to the Supremes were UNIQUE. Patti had - and still has - a unique voice. The only thing unique about Diana was her vocals were strange and it stood out but after a while you wanna click off the radio when you hear her cooing "baby love!" UGH! Give me "WALK ON...WALK ON...WALK ON..." anyday! Oh Mary..bless her, but that child ain't the brightest. I think she STILL doesn't understand what happened, not to Flo, Diana, Motown, and herself. She's got a pretty face and was a "connoisseur of men" to the max, but Mary's kinda like froth on beer. I DO think Flo wasn't too happy about the Copa and what it meant, but felt she had no choice (which was true). She seemed most comfortable w/ herself and the rnb thing, but Diana was the upwardly mobile one. I think Di was cool w/ it while Flo fumed, but Mary...it just went over her head!
In fairness to Diana, she had a very good emotive quality that's improved w/ the years. Her voice could handle those incredibly overproduced HDH comps nicely. Yeah, she has had better songs over the years. I do find myself more drawn to her solo-wise than during the Supremes. Matter of fact her early solo material is actually TOP-NOTCH! I posted "All the Befores" from her "Surrender" album yesterday and I dig "Now That There's You" from her debut. I think Ashford & Simpson and Chic were her BEST collaborators...EVER! | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: VERY strange considering Brenda would've blown up if Motown had not set that up! And Raynoma did a LOT for Motown. Don't get fucking credit for that shit. In fact Raynoma, Gwen, Anna, Esther Gordy, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells and Martha & the original Vandellas did more to make MOTOWN a lasting label. Everything else was just covered by the Supremes. Strange thing is the Supremes were the first girl group (though not the first female artists - Claudette Robinson of the Miracles, Mable John and Mary Wells came before them) and yet it took until 1964 and Diana's "vocal change" to suddenly "TAKE OFF!" But hell the Shirelles had more pop/soul appeal than the Supremes did.
I kinda feel bad saying this but I think the Supremes get too much credit for stuff they didn't pioneer. Only things they really paved for were Motown's integration into supper clubs and Motown pushing the Tempts, the Jackson 5 and the Four Tops (who also did standards very well). Hell the Dells did standards better than the Supremes! Oh and they were the first girl group with a number-one album or two, lol.
The oddest thing is Flo "founded" the group, had the strongest of the three vocalists, and yet she wasn't giving a LOT of leads in their recordings either before or during her run in the group.
Yeah she's definitely "unsung" in that regard because Motown and Lupine don't have a whole lot of tracks of Flo singing lead except for some 1960-1961 recordings that were never issued on record before. [Edited 6/24/09 15:36pm] I believe Flo did about 3-4 leads all told. Sad part about it was towards the end, they were moving her WAY BACK from the mic in the studio and onstage cuz he voice was so powerful. I HATE the Andantes (yeah, I said it) and they were even bringing them in to drown her out. This girl named the damn group, but couldn't get play. Berry did her serious dirt.
Brenda is Motown's greatest mystery to me. How could such a beautiful and talented woman get so shafted? Brenda was made for pop crossover success (maybe she wouldn't put out?) so what happened is just crazy. I don't think the Supremes would have ever made it if Mary Wells hadn't left and Brenda didn't fall down the rabbit hole. Whenever Berry is accused of a light skinned bias, I always bring up Brenda Holloway and Flo as proof against such notions.
Motown, IMHO, was always strangely lacking in female HUGE acts. The Marvelettes and Vandellas should have been far bigger seeing as how they came in the midst of the "girl group" phase. They both had great sounds and were more to the tastes of those times than The Supremes. To be fair to Berry, he actually DID give Ms Ray props in his book (tho money and official credit is a different matter). She was highly respected w/in Motown EXCEPT by "sales"....  . Wonder why? [Edited 6/24/09 16:04pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: Timmy84 said: VERY strange considering Brenda would've blown up if Motown had not set that up! And Raynoma did a LOT for Motown. Don't get fucking credit for that shit. In fact Raynoma, Gwen, Anna, Esther Gordy, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells and Martha & the original Vandellas did more to make MOTOWN a lasting label. Everything else was just covered by the Supremes. Strange thing is the Supremes were the first girl group (though not the first female artists - Claudette Robinson of the Miracles, Mable John and Mary Wells came before them) and yet it took until 1964 and Diana's "vocal change" to suddenly "TAKE OFF!" But hell the Shirelles had more pop/soul appeal than the Supremes did.
I kinda feel bad saying this but I think the Supremes get too much credit for stuff they didn't pioneer. Only things they really paved for were Motown's integration into supper clubs and Motown pushing the Tempts, the Jackson 5 and the Four Tops (who also did standards very well). Hell the Dells did standards better than the Supremes! Oh and they were the first girl group with a number-one album or two, lol.
The oddest thing is Flo "founded" the group, had the strongest of the three vocalists, and yet she wasn't giving a LOT of leads in their recordings either before or during her run in the group.
Yeah she's definitely "unsung" in that regard because Motown and Lupine don't have a whole lot of tracks of Flo singing lead except for some 1960-1961 recordings that were never issued on record before. [Edited 6/24/09 15:36pm] I believe Flo did about 3-4 leads all told. Sad part about it was towards the end, they were moving her WAY BACK from the mic in the studio and onstage cuz he voice was so powerful. I HATE the Andantes (yeah, I said it) and they were even bringing them in to drown her out. This girl named the damn group, but couldn't get play. Berry did her serious dirt.
Brenda is Motown's greatest mystery to me. How could such a beautiful and talented woman get so shafted? Brend a was made for pop crossover success (maybe she wouldn't put out?) so what happened is just crazy. I don't think the Supremes would have ever made it if Mary Wells hand't left and Brenda didn't fall down the rabbit hole. Whenever Berry is accused of a light skinned bias, I always bring up Brenda Holloway and Flo as proof against such notions.
Motown, IMHO, was always strangely lacking in female HUGE acts. The Marvelettes and Vandellas should have been far bigger seeing as how they came in the midst of the "girl group" phase. They both had great sounds and were more to the tastes of those times than The Supremes. To be fair to Berry, he actually DID give Ms Ray props in his book (tho money and official credit is a different matter). She was highly respected w/in Motown EXCEPT by "sales".... . Wonder why? It's sad how the other Motown divas get shoved out of the history books and the other Motown female acts are called footnotes compared to Diana. If it hadn't been for those "footnotes", Diana would be a clothes designer in Detroit by now. Oh yeah the Andantes... they shouldn't have been on any of the girl groups' recordings. You saw how little they were used for the Temptations' recordings? And even then they were overpowered ("It's Growing"). I hardly heard them but they're turned up on Supremes, Marvelettes and Vandellas recordings, you ever notice that?[Edited 6/24/09 16:13pm] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Is Mickey still alive? What record label didhe go to after he left Motown?
Who is Raynoma? "Lack of home training crosses all boundaries." | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
scriptgirl said: Is Mickey still alive? What record label didhe go to after he left Motown?
Who is Raynoma? Raynoma Liles Singleton was one of Berry Gordy's ex-wives who helped form several songwriting and musical publishing companies for Berry's then-fledgling label. She was also one of the original session singers of the label (as the Rayber Voices). Mickey is alive and well, I forget where he lives now, and I forgot what label he left for but he did record some solo work in the '70s, I believe. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Harlepolis said: Timmy84 said: I think I'm gonna cry seeing this. Flo definitely got the wrong end of the stick in life.
 You think the Shalamar thread produced some heated debates,,,,wait till this one come up
I'm def on pins & needles till I see this,,,,even though I know Unsung won't tap any new infos I'm not fimiliar with, still it'll be a good watch for the ones who are not. Yep..... I'm getting pissed off already. 
| |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
TD, I wonder if these videos about "how wonderful" the Supremes are would piss you off:
Berry: "Diana Ross, MY STAR, came through..."  | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
scriptgirl said: Is Mickey still alive? What record label didhe go to after he left Motown?
Who is Raynoma? Raynoma Liles, as she was known when Berry met her, was the co founder of Rayber, Talma Records, Motown Records, and Jobete Publishing. She's better known as Raynoma Gordy Singleton. She was also Berry's girlfriend, babymama, and then wife...that order. Here's a piece I found from People Mag back in 1990 when she wrote her book. http://www.people.com/peo...17,00.html BTW, I'll try to find a pic, but that was was/is a dime. I saw her in the Motown 40 special...she must have been 62 and could have passed for 38-40, no shit. Mickey and Kim are both still alive, but apparently not married anymore. I couldn't find out when they split up, but when they left Motown in 67, they 1st when to MGM Records and then Stax (Mable John also left Motown for Stax). Kim's a dj in Detroit (Martha Reeves is on City Council, BTW) and Mickey seems to be doing stage work. Kim still does the occassional performance. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
brooksie said: scriptgirl said: Is Mickey still alive? What record label didhe go to after he left Motown?
Who is Raynoma? Raynoma Liles, as she was known when Berry met her, was the co founder of Rayber, Talma Records, Motown Records, and Jobete Publishing. She's better known as Raynoma Gordy Singleton. She was also Berry's girlfriend, babymama, and then wife...that order. Here's a piece I found from People Mag back in 1990 when she wrote her book. http://www.people.com/peo...17,00.html BTW, I'll try to find a pic, but that was was/is a dime. I saw her in the Motown 40 special...she must have been 62 and could have passed for 38-40, no shit. Mickey and Kim are both still alive, but apparently not married anymore. I couldn't find out when they split up, but when they left Motown in 67, they 1st when to MGM Records and then Stax (Mable John also left Motown for Stax). Kim's a dj in Detroit (Martha Reeves is on City Council, BTW) and Mickey seems to be doing stage work. Kim still does the occassional performance. Shows you how Motown revisionists try to shut certain people out of their "family" picture. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Timmy84 said: TD, I wonder if these videos about "how wonderful" the Supremes are would piss you off:
Berry: "Diana Ross, MY STAR, came through..." Berry: "Diana Ross, MY STAR, came through..."  | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |