Timmy84 said:

True enough, but her singing style overall didn't drastically change. Her voice was too commerical to do alternative or harder edged stuff, IMHO. Going to Broadway was a good move for her cuz she has a very commercial sound.

Her 80s stuff had a sound that the late 90s-early 00s folks would have dug. I AM surprised that nobody covered her (that I can think of).

Yank isn't fully a put down, IMHO. Depends on how it's used. Yankee, OTOH, is an assualt!

I love this thread so much because she definitely needs some retro love. This girl was IT and still listens good.
[Edited 6/17/09 13:37pm]

She waited far too long to do her Playboy spread.

Prince, Madonna, Britney, Kylie, Janet, heck even MJ used teens hormones to push their products.

She was far too squeaky clean, and her music was not strong enough to make any kind of impact.
[Edited 6/17/09 13:46pm]

While it was "cute" that she could do much talented stuff at the tender age of 17, by the time she was 21 no one was impressed any more. Personally, I'm not impressed that someone could write some shitty music at the age of 17. But some people...

And then once she was an adult artist, she didn't do anything to re-invent her music or image, as some other people have pointed out. Well I guess I don't know if she - and her handlers - were trying that hard. But the pop music mainstream changed a lot between 1987 and 1991 and she was left behind.

She was also never a sexpot. "Cute" but not hot, unlike Kylie, Madonna or Janet. And as she got older she didn't get any cuter.

I dunno, if she's become a well-adjusted adult then maybe she came out ahead. I'd probably rather have her career than anybody in TLC's.

^^^^ Yup, that pretty much sums it up. She didn't want it bad enough after a certain point. If you want to saty on top, you gotta be willing to do what you must do to be current. She was apparently unwilling.

brooksie said:

"Losin' myself" was a decent more mature rnb song (and she was finally getting some more co-writers in, which she needed), but it didn't go anywhere. Climate changed, and Debbie looked out of place I guess. "Shock your mama", off the same album from 1992 ("Body, mind and soul") was tongue in cheek but a pretty awful and silly song. "Losin' myself" was much better though, and thanks to more songs co-written by outsiders (and some new producers), "Body mind and soul" is, to me, her most consistant album, even though no one bought it LOL.

I own her first 4 Atlantic albums, but am not interested after that. From the songs I have heard, she did not mature much as a songwriter. Thats fine, and her songs always hinted at broadway anyway, so that career path was logical.


Debbie wanted to be taken seriously as a songwriter, and not for changing styles and hooking up with hot producers like everyone else in pop does. She did hook up with more "hot" producers on her 3rd and 4th album, but frankly, she was better off trying something completely different musically in europe.

Personally I don't think she grew much as a songwriter (though singing about date rape and aids on "body mind and soul") are not the norm for teeni pop are they LOL). As she pretty much single handedly wrote her first 2 albums, its not surprising they are samey, safe and have alot of filler even by teen pop standards. In other words, her first 2 albums, even though they were hit albums, are quite poor, particually "electric youth". As I said, once she got more producers and co-writers in, like every other female pop star does, I thought she had a good album, but nobody listened LOL. She didn't sell out, but Iam pretty sure the record company told her to work with more people.

She also wrote/co wrote songs for other people here and there (Ana, The Party, Love Hewitt, Chris Cuevas, Jo Beth Taylor). Probably got abit burned out by 1991 to be honest.

^^^ She was just never meant for icon status. That said, I'm surprised her best work isn't covered.

From what you're saying, she waited past her window of opportunity to stay on top.

brooksie said:

Yeah, she was more keen to talk about her songwriting then carefully calculate her next project I think. Plus she was on Atlantic, a "soft" label LOL. If she was on MCA for example, some real newjack/rnb would surfaced LOL. Well perhaps not newjack, but something less predictable....

Unfortunately, "losin' myself" is not on youtube. "Free me", off the same album, had a nice enough poppy house remix though.



The track "anything is possible", off her 3rd album of the same name, was abit lackluster for a first single. Not surprising it didn't do to well. But that same year, Tiffany totally fell off with her more mature, rnb sounding "new inside" album. Its great for late 80's pop fans like me, but its not surprising she lost her old fans, and gained few, if any new ones.

Heres a slightly more funky live version of "anything is possible"



Both Tiffany and Debbie pretty much fell off with their 3rd albums, both released in 1990, which could mean that a) the music was just not good enough or b) Tiffany risked too much and Debbie not enough. Very fickle business for pop stars, as we all know.

Personally I prefer Tiffany's albums. More mature aswell.

I always wondered why Tiffani didn't go more towards country. She sure had the pipes. She actually started out country, so it would have been a logical move for her.

The 90s required some edge, so squeaky clean wasn't gonna cut it.

brooksie said:

She did a few country songs off her Asia only "dreams never die" in the early 90's. Her manger/svengali, the sleezy as hell looking George Tobin, did release it himself a few years ago with bonus tracks. An odd album, as its mainly ballads, but an interesting one too, as she has can do alot more styles then Debbie. Tiffany can do rock, or kiddie AOR as I call it, convincinly too.

Tobin found a couple of great obscure covers for Tiffany

"hold an old friends hand"


I remember my Dad years ago heard me playing this, and was quited shocked it was Tiffany, Nice song, and Tiffany was still a teen when she recorded this.

I said it before and I'll say it again, this song is perfect for Hannah Montana. Kiddie AOR, but Tiffany sounds confident and its a catchy song.

thesexofit said:

Notice in that last video, Debbie mention "image". That was definitely a huge problem that was happen by 1990. The music industry was putting too much focus on "the image" and not enough focus on "the music".

^^^ When haven't artists complained about it being the music vs the image and how they wanna be "true" to the music? She came along in the VIDEO era, so they were married then.The artists who understood this basic factoid survived far better than the ones that didn't. She clearly didn't get it. This is why she's not an icon, tho there was no real chance of that anyway.

brooksie said:

THANK YOU! In case people didn't know...

She was a TEEN IDOL. If she wanted to, she COULD'VE been a cultural icon but like others said, she didn't even try so she gave it up after a while, whenever she decided to leave the music industry. She hasn't made a record in like 16 years. By then Kylie became popular in Europe, Madonna became a global icon (which she already was after the '80s) and Janet was hitting her strides, lol.

Right now if Debbie want to make a comeback, do like Paula and be a judge of another popularity singing contest.

brooksie said:

Put it in these contexts:

1990 was the year of the Milli Vanill lip-synching controversy. Debbie mentioning the industry's focus on "the image" was spot on.
[Edited 6/17/09 20:10pm]

Timmy84 said:

I don't see how she could make a comeback of new material unless she's drastically updated her sound and is pretty much willing to sing over a hip hop beat. She'd also have to be willing to subject her personal life to blogs...LOL. One thing in Paula's favor is that she never had a teen idol image.

How could she think that she was a "radio star" a la Meatloaf? A huge part of her popularity had to do w/ her fashion sense and looks. Her saying that would be like Molly Ringwald complaining because she wasn't thought of for Meryl Streep roles! Delusional.

brooksie said:

That's true about Paula. I remember when I was little seeing the video to "The Way That You Love Me" and my eyes were glued to the TV like this - Same with "Cold-Hearted Snake". With Debbie, it was like "VALLEY GIRL!"
[Edited 6/17/09 20:17pm]

TonyVanDam said:

No shit, I was there. I recall very well. Of course, Milli Vanili has ZERO to do w/ why SHE'S not an icon now. By 1990, she was known for doing all her own work, so that analogy and context doesn't work here. The reason why she isn't on top now is that she obviously didn't understand in order to last, you MUST change w/ the times. There have always been artists that lip sync and who are primarily about image...that's the way it's always been in pop music. However, in terms of why she's not like Madonna, Janet, or Kylie is that she seemed to think that her sound had a more profound impact than it did. She underestimated how much her success was about her image.

If she were like Aretha Franklin or Joni Mitchell, the image argument would fly, but let's tell the truth here. Teenaged Debbie Gibson was like teenaged Beyonce, but Beyonce evolved musically and imagewise. That's why Beyonce is going strong after 10 years and Debbie stayed on top about 3 years, if that.

Not to you Brooksie, lol:

MILLI VANILLI!?!

MILLI VANILLI!?!

You dare bring Milli Vanilli to this forum!?

You all know the 90s group Hanson? They're a good example of a group that did all their own stuff and had some pop fame initially, but the internet has given them something of a cult status. People are still sweating them and following their (boring) personal lives. This group is a perfect example of where Debbie might have ended up if she'd either stuck around more from the 80s or broke in the mid-late 90s. Hanson's age when they broke along w/ their icky sweet image pretty much took away any chance for serious adult stardom, but the internet have kept their careers alive. This simply wasn't possible for teen stars that came earlier (MJ being the HUGE exception, of course).

Paula was mostly known for her dancing and few cared about her singing. She was an exotic beautify to boot. Add that to her being big upped by Janet and Arsenio, her image had an adulthood and complexity that could still work for her IF she can still hoof it like she did.

brooksie said:

Hanson were pretty boys. Bottom fucking line. There's women who were fans back then who are still pissed they cut off their locks.

brooksie said:

I dont know why you are comparing her to Beyonce and why Tony is to "cultural icons" (a good way to get alot of replies LOL).



She did take herself too seriously but I commend her for at least trying to be abit different. As I already said, a few of her songs hinted at broadway, and thats where she went for awhile. Not bad work if you can get it. She may of burnt herself out, and delivering 2 sub-par albums in a row ("electric youth" "anything is possible"), was never gonna help her career either.

Her image was that she wrote her own stuff. I guess people got bored of that, and bored of her. She did write some good songs though, and thats all I care about really.

Beyonce has lasted because she understands the game. The cross promotions of movies, perfumes, drinks (use to be with pepsi), soundtracks, high profile husband. The fact she is ALWAYS either in the news with a new movie, new album, new single, new duet. Its constant media attension and she knows that she has to stay in the media to still be successfull. Media was different back in Gibson's heyday, and the pressures no way near as bad I reckon, but at least Debbie seemed genuine in just wanting to write and record. She really did seem to be as naive and sheltered as her image gave out and theres nothing wrong with that mind you.

brooksie said:

Cheesy, teenibopper pop music in America pretty much dissapeared from about 1993-1997 when Nysync, backstreet boys and of course, Hanson came out. Little pop was on the charts. Nobody who did Debbies sort of music could survive without either going to europe (which some did), doing some alternative grunge thing, or just keep trying to peddle pop (which Paula Abdul did and got a bomb album around 1994). Weird time for US music then. The fallout was inevitable, just like the fallout of Hanson etc...nothing lasts forever, and very few survive without serious planning ahead. Very few!

thesexofit said:

This should be obvious based on what I said, however...Beyonce ALSO started as a teen and she was known for being very involved in her music as was Debbie 10 years earlier. Beyonce is still around because she wanted to be and did what she needed to do. Let's not pretend that cross promotions didn't exist in the 1980s...Madonna anyone? Prince? MJ?

Her songs were good for the time and place, but the question was why she's not big NOW.

She made her choices and good for her, but she was basically the product of a time and place. She had no transcendance.

TonyVanDam said:

So did Madonna & Stephen Bray....
MADONNA IS THE "SUPER O.G." OF F.F.T.!!!!!