As Bill Wolfer quite clearly said, Michael cannot play an instrument. More recently Wil.i.am's musical partner who worked in the studio with Michael in 2006 said the exact same thing. Michael cannot play an instrument. That doesn't change the fact that he's musically gifted, but fans should not make inflated claims which they can't back up.

According to Wolfer's own words Jackson did not play any instruments himself at least during the Thriller sessions, so it's not something that I came up with myself.

cdcgold said:

There's no need to state such obvious things. Besides, that's not quite how music that's strongly based on rhythmic playing works. Jackson does not claim himself that he did everything on his records himself, so I don't see the point of these comments of yours. Most of his later songs have shared writing credits anyway.



I clearly included that part too there as well and later commented on it myself as well, so how can you claim that I am posting parts that only "suit my opinion"?

The three chords there are very basic chords - first inversions of them to be exact - so I don't think it actually requires too much to think of some basic tonalities in your head as they tend to come quite naturally to most people who have been subjected to pop music. Again if he knew how to play an instrument, he would have had no trouble to play such simple things on it without having to "instruct others". As for the sound used itself, it had already been created by Wolfer himself earlier on (therefore, primarily his creation and jackson's production decision). Let me just tell you, creating sounds on a CS80 is not a small task. You just don't select one of the several hundred ready-made patches as on current digital boards.



Well, that I'd definitely like to hear too. Can you post for example a youtube link?

This is conversation is bordering on ridiculous, by the way. You don't need to defend the possibility of someone not doing everything on their records when the credits on the albums clearly state that he did not do everything on them either. There's not a huge disagreement here involveld - again, what are you arguing for?

Then can we just get back to shining the spotlight on Bill Wolfer, keyboardist for one thread?

The fuck are y'all making a Bill Wolfer appreciation thread a goddamn Michael Jackson thread?! LUV4U!

Timmy84 said:

Billie Jean=Micheal Jackson, think Timmy84, Micheal Jackson Ain't no getting away from MJ.

it does not change the fact that HE already had the song in HIS head the way he wanted it.

I <3 novabrkr

Wrong! MJ didnt "compose" shit.. He stole it!

Hall & Oates - 1981's HIT Song from the album Private Eyes - "I Can't Go For That(No Can Do)".
http://www.youtube.com/wa...GZwPGsfcwM

"I Can't Go for That (No Can Do)" is a 1981 song recorded by Daryl Hall and John Oates.

It was the fourth number-one hit single of their career on the Billboard Hot 100 and the second hit single from their album Private Eyes. It features Charles DeChant on saxophone.

On January 30, 1982, "I Can't Go for That" ended a 10-week run at the top of the Hot 100 by Olivia Newton-John's song, "Physical".

Thanks to heavy airplay on urban-contemporary stations, "I Can't Go for That" also topped the U.S. R&B chart, a rare act for a non-African American act. The song also went to #1 on the Hot Dance Club Play chart for one week in January of 1982.

Beyond being a number one hit in its own right, "I Can't Go for That" continues to bear influence. The song has been covered by a number of recording artists including Brian McKnight, The Nylons, Les Go (with Alfredo Alias), Donny Osmond, East End, Kansascali, and Orson. It was featured in British comedy series The Mighty Boosh (Series 3, Episode 3) where Bob Fossil danced to the song. "I Can't Go for That" was voted #6 on VH1's list of "The 100 Greatest Songs of the '80s".

-Wikipedia

"...On January 30, 1982, "I Can't Go for That" ENDED a 10-WEEK run at the top of the Hot 100 by Olivia Newton-John's song, "Physical"."


The Thriller Album wasn't even released until basically a month away from 1983. The internet is around now, so MJ can't take credit for shit anymore, like he used to in the 1980's. If the internet was around in 1983 - no moonwalk, no taking credit for beats for billie jean,no saying your the first black artist on mtv - when you were really the 4th black artist.. prince having 2 videos out on mtv before he had 1... etc,ect. The snowball effect of Thriller/MJ would have been 75% smaller if you take the moonwalk, first black artist on mtv & billie jean away. There is some there but not as much and the tidewave would have been ((((allot)))) smaller.

SoulAlive said:

Hey now, that album is rockin' fun!

Not to doubt this guys playing or anything, but as far as Billie Jean goes, what did this guy do apart from play the keys exactly as Mike had already composed the part? This is the home demo of Billie Jean and the elements are all there.

angel345 said:

That's why I got this uzi -

So basically MJ told this Bill Wolfer guy to play something like the HIT SONG from Hall & Oates. We know HE can't play keyboards... so take the same style, pacing, groove and timing for the other sounds to come in 100% like "I Can't Go For That".

I'd say the only difference MJ's is a second faster - but if you compare both openings - They are the same!

... and MJ is the one on the Bashir Interview bragging about this? Bragging that he stole the whole concept of a song that was out in the public eye - Top of the Charts for 10 WEEKS... a YEAR PLUS Before your Album Thriller wasn't even released.

Listen to the first 22 seconds of Both Songs... all the "interesting" side noises come in at the SAME EXACT Times, like I said MJ's is about 1 second faster a little less then a second. But the SAME BEAT, SOUND, STYLE is all Hall & Oates.

MJ Stole it! He heard Hall & Oates "I can't go for that" .. probably took credit for it and then told this Bill Wolfer dude to play like this, then he probably did his Human Beat Box sounds which he stole from The Fat Boys to explain what he wanted a real musican to play.

A - B: both songs. MJ Stole the whole feel and opening from Hall & Oates!

So basically MJ told this Bill Wolfer guy to play something like the HIT SONG from Hall & Oates. We know HE can't play keyboards... so take the same style, pacing, groove and timing for the other sounds to come in 100% like "I Can't Go For That".

I'd say the only difference MJ's is a second faster - but if you compare both openings - They are the same!

... and MJ is the one on the Bashir Interview bragging about this? Bragging that he stole the whole concept of a song that was out in the public eye - Top of the Charts for 10 WEEKS... a YEAR PLUS Before your Album Thriller wasn't even released.

Listen to the first 22 seconds of Both Songs... all the "interesting" side noises come in at the SAME EXACT Times, like I said MJ's is about 1 second faster a little less then a second. But the SAME BEAT, SOUND, STYLE is all Hall & Oates.

MJ Stole it! He heard Hall & Oates "I can't go for that" .. probably took credit for it and then told this Bill Wolfer dude to play like this, then he probably did his Human Beat Box sounds which he stole from The Fat Boys to explain what he wanted a real musican to play.

A - B: both songs. MJ Stole the whole feel and opening from Hall & Oates!

THIS Wasn't some unknown stolen song here - We are NOT talking about the 9th song on an unknown album that was never released as a single.


http://en.wikipedia.org/w...No_Can_Do)

"I Can't Go for That (No Can Do)" is a 1981 song recorded by Daryl Hall and John Oates.

It was the fourth number-one hit single of their career on the Billboard Hot 100 and the second hit single from their album Private Eyes.

On January 30, 1982, "I Can't Go for That" ended a 10-week run at the top of the Hot 100 by Olivia Newton-John's song, "Physical".

Thanks to heavy airplay on urban contemporary stations, "I Can't Go for That" also topped the U.S. R&B chart, a rare feat for a non-African American act. The song also went to number one on the Hot Dance Club Play chart for one week in January 1982.

"I Can't for That (No Can Do)" is one of the 14 Hall and Oates songs that have been played on the radio over one million times, according to BMI.

Daryl Hall has claimed that Michael Jackson admitted to copying the bassline from this song in his song "Billie Jean".


=====
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...illie_Jean

On December 1, 1982, Thriller was released to critical and commercial success.

A month later, on January 2, 1983, "Billie Jean" was released as the album's second single


[Edited 6/17/09 7:47am]

So basically MJ told this Bill Wolfer guy to play something like the HIT SONG from Hall & Oates. We know HE can't play keyboards... so take the same style, pacing, groove and timing for the other sounds to come in 100% like "I Can't Go For That".

I'd say the only difference MJ's is a second faster - but if you compare both openings - They are the same!

... and MJ is the one on the Bashir Interview bragging about this? Bragging that he stole the whole concept of a song that was out in the public eye - Top of the Charts for 10 WEEKS... a YEAR PLUS Before your Album Thriller wasn't even released.

Listen to the first 22 seconds of Both Songs... all the "interesting" side noises come in at the SAME EXACT Times, like I said MJ's is about 1 second faster a little less then a second. But the SAME BEAT, SOUND, STYLE is all Hall & Oates.

MJ Stole it! He heard Hall & Oates "I can't go for that" .. probably took credit for it and then told this Bill Wolfer dude to play like this, then he probably did his Human Beat Box sounds which he stole from The Fat Boys to explain what he wanted a real musican to play.

A - B: both songs. MJ Stole the whole feel and opening from Hall & Oates!

THIS Wasn't some unknown stolen song here - We are NOT talking about the 9th song on an unknown album that was never released as a single.


http://en.wikipedia.org/w...No_Can_Do)

"I Can't Go for That (No Can Do)" is a 1981 song recorded by Daryl Hall and John Oates.

It was the fourth number-one hit single of their career on the Billboard Hot 100 and the second hit single from their album Private Eyes.

On January 30, 1982, "I Can't Go for That" ended a 10-week run at the top of the Hot 100 by Olivia Newton-John's song, "Physical".

Thanks to heavy airplay on urban contemporary stations, "I Can't Go for That" also topped the U.S. R&B chart, a rare feat for a non-African American act. The song also went to number one on the Hot Dance Club Play chart for one week in January 1982.

"I Can't for That (No Can Do)" is one of the 14 Hall and Oates songs that have been played on the radio over one million times, according to BMI.

Daryl Hall has claimed that Michael Jackson admitted to copying the bassline from this song in his song "Billie Jean".


=====
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...illie_Jean

On December 1, 1982, Thriller was released to critical and commercial success.

A month later, on January 2, 1983, "Billie Jean" was released as the album's second single


[Edited 6/17/09 7:47am]

THIS Wasn't some unknown stolen song here - We are NOT talking about the 9th song on an unknown album that was never released as a single.


http://en.wikipedia.org/w...No_Can_Do)

"I Can't Go for That (No Can Do)" is a 1981 song recorded by Daryl Hall and John Oates.

It was the fourth number-one hit single of their career on the Billboard Hot 100 and the second hit single from their album Private Eyes.

On January 30, 1982, "I Can't Go for That" ended a 10-week run at the top of the Hot 100 by Olivia Newton-John's song, "Physical".

Thanks to heavy airplay on urban contemporary stations, "I Can't Go for That" also topped the U.S. R&B chart, a rare feat for a non-African American act. The song also went to number one on the Hot Dance Club Play chart for one week in January 1982.

"I Can't for That (No Can Do)" is one of the 14 Hall and Oates songs that have been played on the radio over one million times, according to BMI.

Daryl Hall has claimed that Michael Jackson admitted to copying the bassline from this song in his song "Billie Jean".


=====
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...illie_Jean

On December 1, 1982, Thriller was released to critical and commercial success.

A month later, on January 2, 1983, "Billie Jean" was released as the album's second single


[Edited 6/17/09 7:47am]

Classic Tracks: Hall & Oates "I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)"
Apr 1, 2006 12:00 PM, By Gary Eskow



“We're all products of our genes, our history, the region we grew up in and our influences,” Daryl Hall says. “These things, in my opinion, determine how an individual responds to the great muse in the sky. Everyone's an original; you can't generalize about groups.” But, wait: Isn't there a difference in the way Ben E. King and the Kingston Trio sing a phrase that can be traced to the divide — geographic and cultural — that separates Western European and African cultures? Beethoven spent years searching for the one perfect version of a composition, and so — for better or worse — have other “classical” composers. In Africa, wasn't a greater value placed on spontaneous performance, and didn't this factor eventually help characterize the tradition of American soul singing that Hall & Oates practice so capably?

“Beethoven was a courtier who had to impress the record company executives of his day, just like we do,” Hall insists. “The local yokels, the lords, were in charge. The people who sat in the villages making up songs weren't interested in what Beethoven was doing anyway. As for me, I go for spontaneity, and I don't have to doctor my performances. Almost all of the lead vocals on the album John [Oates] and I released [in 2004], Our Kind of Soul, were first takes.”

When they met as college kids at Temple University in 1967, Hall and Oates were in the process of soaking up the influences of the time and their hometown, Philadelphia. The pair's flexibility and willingness to experiment allowed them to break up, reassemble and retool their sound over the next decade or so. “She's Gone,” released in 1973, drew Hall & Oates into the national arena. After scoring single success with “Sara Smile” and “Rich Girl,” the pair drifted from view for a while, but they would re-emerge with a vengeance in the 1980s with a slew of hits that vaulted them to the top of the charts and gained them the title of most successful duo in the history of the recording industry.


One night in 1981, after a long day spent working on the Private Eyes album, the crowd cleared out of Electric Lady Studios (New York City). Hall, Oates, engineer Neil Kernon and a bunch of instruments and amplifiers that had been left turned on were all that remained. For almost a year, a phrase — “I can't go for that, no can do” — had been knocking around Hall's head. Now it was moving into his body.

“Remember the old Roland CompuRhythm box?” he asks. “I turned to the Rock and Roll 1 preset, sat down at a Korg organ that happened to be lying there and started to play this bass line that was coming to me. It's the old recording studio story: The engineer heard what I was doing and turned on the tape machine. Good thing, because I'm the kind of person who will come up with an idea and forget it. The chords came together in about 10 minutes, and then I heard a guitar riff, which I asked John, who was sitting in the booth, to play.”

“I remember that moment clearly,” says Oates. When we spoke, the relaxed and affable Oates had just dropped his 9-year-old son off at his math tutor and had plenty of time to talk on the cell phone before the lesson ended. Oates and his wife live in the mountains outside of Aspen, Colo., and homeschool their child. “The old Compurhythm had four presets: Rock 1, Rock 2, cha cha/samba and some other stupid beat. We both had them in our houses, and one was sitting in the studio.

“We cut everything live back then, but sometimes used the Roland box to come up with a tempo,” Oates continues. “Anyway, Daryl came up with this great bass line, using whatever sound happened to be on the organ, and Neil miked it and the drum machine.

“Daryl came up with the ‘B’ section chords, and then I plugged my 1958 Strat directly into the board, which was either an early SSL or a Trident. We were beginning to experiment with digital samplers — the Fairlight and Synclavier in particular — but were still recording analog. At any rate, Daryl sang a guitar part idea, I started to experiment with a muting thing and the part evolved on the spot.”

Did they think about adding another guitar part? “No, never!” Oates says. “When we play ‘I Can't Go for That’ in concert, I usually play some shimmery parts, but there was a leanness to the '80s sound that we were into. The Cars and other groups had that straight, simple eighth-note feel, and it was an influence on us; it was one of the cool things about '80s music. The '70s were Rococo, but punk and new wave flavored the '80s, and we responded to those styles.”

After Hall laid down a bell track, the assembled gathering called it a night. The following day, Hall sat down with his longtime collaborator, Sara Allen, and fleshed out the lyrics. “I wrote most of the lyrics,” says Hall, “but Sara contributed some ideas. I sang the lead vocal, and there's the song — can't get any simpler than that!”

A saxilo (similar to a clarinet, but with an upturned bell) solo by Charlie DeChant, percussion overdubs to put a feel on top of the CompuRhythm track and the trademark Hall & Oates lush, triple-tracked backgrounds — all fitting neatly on one roll of 2-inch tape — were all that was required to turn “I Can't Go for That” into a monster hit: It made it all the way to Number One on the Billboard Pop Singles chart at the end of January 1982, on the heels of another Number One from the previous fall, “Private Eyes.” It also hit Number One on the R&B chart, a singular feat in their distinguished history. These were heady times for the duo: Between 1981 and 1985, they landed 12 songs in the Top 10 of Billboard's Hot 100 pop singles chart. Also, the Private Eyes album made it to Number 5, tied for their highest position on the LP chart.

As it turns out, this infectious frisson had a great influence on the pop music that would follow. Listening to “I Can't Go for That” after letting it drift out of the mind for a while, one can clearly identify this track — one of the first pop hits to feature a drum machine — as a precursor to Michael Jackson's “Billie Jean” and the generation of songs built on drum machine tracks that came in its wake.

“No question about it,” Hall agrees. “Michael Jackson once said directly to me that he hoped I didn't mind that he copped that groove. That's okay; it's something we all do. [Eddie] Van Halen told me that he copied the synth part from ‘Kiss on My List’ and used it in ‘Jump.’ I don't have a problem with that at all.

“I learned so much from people my first decade or so in the business. I was a sponge — picking up things from all over the place — who eventually turned into a rock, searching for the hardcore that is my essence. In fact, I don't even listen to music these days — there's too much of it all around us! Of course, some sound seeps in around the corners, but I don't seek it out. Those early influences, though, were very important to me. Leon Huff taught me a lot about piano playing, Kenny Gamble showed me some compositional things and Tommy Bell's lyrical sensibility caught my ear. John and I were lucky enough to be taken under the wing of Arif Mardin. He taught me a lot. Most of all, his background as a person of Turkish descent who came to New York and was able to work with so many different kinds of people, and mix different cultural elements together — that's what John and I wanted to do, and we soaked up that pluralism.

“All of my songs are autobiographical,” Hall continues. “‘She's Gone’ is quintessential Hall & Oates. ‘Sara Smile’ means as much to me now as it did when I wrote it. ‘One on One’ — that song expresses a theme I've explored in lots of my songs, the idea that I've been traveling all my life but my heart longs to stay in one place; being in one place, but wanting to be somewhere else.

Both are awesome songs, and it is clear MJ was inspired by it.
Both have the same of kind synth groove, but head toward different vibes, making them feel totally different.
MJ fans here can get very touchy
[Edited 6/17/09 12:39pm]

violetblues said:

So can Prince fans, and he's so derivative of all his influences, and i don't get this isn't more recognised. it's almost unbelievable! Prince is NOT an orginal artist by any stretch, if you've got loads of Sly, Jimi, James, War, The Meters, Marvin, Stevie and George this would be acknowledged without question.

Ideas, expanded on only.