Serena said:

they seem to respond in a similar way to how you would expect MJ himself, which is either ignore or rubbish anything without responding with facts. i wonder if this is an intentional atempt to try and emulate the artist they adore. it just comes across as immature and stupid to me. god knows what anyone else thinks

unique said:

bboy87 said:

This thread has been over run by articles from Daily Mail, the Sun and the Examiner



i think the problem with MJ is that the general public are still convinced that he is a child molestor and paedophile, and upset that he has used his resources to avoid convictions on these counts. they are unhappy that he paid off jordy chandler, and unhappy that the last case ended in farce. before these stories he was a well loved star with the public, so it just goes to show that the public don't care who it is, if you commit child abuse you should pay for it, they won't accept any excuses or give any free passes regardless of who you are, and they won't forget about this. the public know that just because someone isn't found guilty in a court of law that this doesn't mean that they didn't commit the offence. they feel he has abused his star status to abuse young boys, and abused his status to avoid the punishment. as other stars have also avoided the same type of punishment for offences that normal joe public would have received, they aren't happy with this situation at all, thus looking for "an eye for an eye".



I disagree- that's not the main reason why things went sour for him. A lot of it has to do with the plastic surgery, skin issues, and increasing adgroynous appearances as the years went on. Those stories became the bigger news instead of the man's music. Did any of this stuff have any relevance on the man during the Thriller and Off the Wall years? Absolutely not, because it was all about the man's music back then, and not about how he looked. His reputation was already tumbling from the start of the Bad era, and it just got worse later on- once the allegations started. Also the reclusiveness didn't help his situation either.




MJ's problem is that his music has declined badly since his hey day, he hasn't released anything in a long time, he hasn't performed live in a long time, thus he hasn't presented the public with anything to try and change their minds about him, the last major event they associate themselves with MJ is his child abuse case. whilst he released thriller 25, the public overlook this as he's released god knows how many greatest hits and compilation discs and sets, and that's at least the fourth release of that album, so he's milking the past for all he can instead of doing something new



I don't agree about the music declining, but I do agree that he hasn't done a great job in keeping up the pace in making albums- it might have a lot to do with all those problems he got himself in the past eight years, and that's probably its held him back.



MJ hasn't had a real serious female partner throughout his adult life, he has had a pet monkey who slept in MJ's bedroom at home and on tour, he was then involved in a major child abuse case which was settled out of court with a large pay off and he married elvis's daughter in an attempt to stop his drug addictions, but that only lasted 2 years and appeared to all but a few as a sham marriage. considering his second marraige which was also short lived, wasn't consumated, and he didn't even sleep with his wife, according to the woman herself, it strongly suggests that he isn't interested in a normal relationship with a member of the opposite sex. since his adult life, most of his themes for music and videos revolve around children, moonwalker movie, captain eo, etc. normally a young adult would experiement sexual themes based on their sexual preferences, such as madonna and prince's early work for example, or pretty much most pop music for teenagers, young stars will be seen around pretty stars of the opposite sex (even if they are gay, unless they have openely came out), but MJ, one of the biggest young stars around in the 80s, when he was seen, he was usually seen with either a monkey or children. it probably didn't sink in at the time, but i think anyone who's ever got to the stage of moving past teenager into a twenty something will tell you that hanging out with young kids at that age isn't normal or desirable, and raging hormones push you towards what you desire, usually the oppposite sex

now he is 50 years old, with hardly any adult female relationships in his life, surely he must be feeling lonely, and regardless of what he has went through, wouldn't have a problem finding a female partner, but doesn't. instead he has a relationship with children that he looks after but there is no evidence that they are his. his last wife, who is mother of two of them confirmed that she didn't have sex with him and doesn't know who the sperm donor is, and we don't have any evidence or suggestion as to who the mother of the third child is. this all points towards him having no desire for females or adults, and instead has an unhealthy obsession with children. these unusual lifestyle choices don't do him any favours in appealing to the public



A lot of his problems are because of his own doing. He also loved selling stories to the tabloids, and that got him into a ton of trouble. The folks from the National Enquirer came onto Geraldo's show in 1993 (Its on You Tube- it was a show about Vitiligo). They said that Michael was the one who started the rumors about the Hyperbaric Chamber and the Elephant Man Bones. MJ made a lot of dumb mistakes throughout the years, and that's why he landed in such a big mess. He's as much to blame as far as why his reputation went right out the window, although the media played its part too.
[Edited 5/23/09 21:10pm]

unique said:

The fans do respond in the same way, alternatively they decide to cover up any negative reports by burying them under loads of awful pictures and video appearances of over 10 years ago. Why get so defensive? If MJ had a decent PR team around him the fans wouldn't have to do his PR for him.

They fail to see that those rumours may have an element of truth in them. They are so hang up on everyone is conspiring against Michael and everything is "tabloid trash" that they fail to see that the rumours have only come about because of MJ own dubious and flaky actions.

And if michael would of stayed with frank dileo or his father as his manager then things would be a lot better.

the problem with history is the good tracks are head and shoulders above the bad tracks, which just makes them sound all the worse by comparison, and sticking the hits compilation along with it just makes those tracks suffer. if you compared the worst tracks on history with the worst on bad, i don't think you could say that history scored better. you could consider the better tracks on history to be better than the best ones on bad, but as an entirity, bad works better than history. or you could say the same for dangerous, which i think is the most patchy and dated of the pre invincible albums. likewise i think off the wall is a more rounded album than thriller, as the great tracks outshine the lesser tracks much more, but there isn't a bad track on either album. you rock my world is the only decent track on invincible, god knows how the combined talents of everyone involved could get it so wrong

bboy87 said:

i'm sure if you found some new items of news that received your seal of approval that you would post them if they hadn't been posted before, but it appears that the "fans" are just avoiding any news articles and just posting replies of "bullshit" after any news article, or igoring it completely. it seems if an article has an element of truth that portrays MJ in a negative light, it's completly ignored so it slides away, and a bunch of massive photos and youtubes posted afterwards to try and hide it, instead of the articles being discussed. throughout the rest of the site, most news articles on prince would have their own thread each, with number of people commenting, good and bad

why are the "fans" so botherd about the news articles? why do they write off everything as bullshit? why are all the articles negative about MJ? why is the general consensus that MJ is sick and not in good enough healthy to do 50 shows, and he hasn't been attending rehearsals, etc, etc? why would the press print these articles? if the public didn't want to read them or didn't agree with them, they wouldn't keep on printing these stories

i think the problem with MJ is that the general public are still convinced that he is a child molestor and paedophile, and upset that he has used his resources to avoid convictions on these counts. they are unhappy that he paid off jordy chandler, and unhappy that the last case ended in farce. before these stories he was a well loved star with the public, so it just goes to show that the public don't care who it is, if you commit child abuse you should pay for it, they won't accept any excuses or give any free passes regardless of who you are, and they won't forget about this. the public know that just because someone isn't found guilty in a court of law that this doesn't mean that they didn't commit the offence. they feel he has abused his star status to abuse young boys, and abused his status to avoid the punishment. as other stars have also avoided the same type of punishment for offences that normal joe public would have received, they aren't happy with this situation at all, thus looking for "an eye for an eye". MJ's problem is that his music has declined badly since his hey day, he hasn't released anything in a long time, he hasn't performed live in a long time, thus he hasn't presented the public with anything to try and change their minds about him, the last major event they associate themselves with MJ is his child abuse case. whilst he released thriller 25, the public overlook this as he's released god knows how many greatest hits and compilation discs and sets, and that's at least the fourth release of that album, so he's milking the past for all he can instead of doing something new

on the flip side, the MJ fans are viewed as fanatical to the extreme, full of complete denial of anything negative whatsoever about MJ, and full of the greatest optimism since the world hoped for the end of the second world war. although MJ appeared on tv in an interview and admitted he sleeps with children and thinks there is nothing wrong with it, his fans don't appear to find that strange, and think he is completly innocent of any of the allegations towards him. MJ hasn't had a real serious female partner throughout his adult life, he has had a pet monkey who slept in MJ's bedroom at home and on tour, he was then involved in a major child abuse case which was settled out of court with a large pay off and he married elvis's daughter in an attempt to stop his drug addictions, but that only lasted 2 years and appeared to all but a few as a sham marriage. considering his second marraige which was also short lived, wasn't consumated, and he didn't even sleep with his wife, according to the woman herself, it strongly suggests that he isn't interested in a normal relationship with a member of the opposite sex. since his adult life, most of his themes for music and videos revolve around children, moonwalker movie, captain eo, etc. normally a young adult would experiement sexual themes based on their sexual preferences, such as madonna and prince's early work for example, or pretty much most pop music for teenagers, young stars will be seen around pretty stars of the opposite sex (even if they are gay, unless they have openely came out), but MJ, one of the biggest young stars around in the 80s, when he was seen, he was usually seen with either a monkey or children. it probably didn't sink in at the time, but i think anyone who's ever got to the stage of moving past teenager into a twenty something will tell you that hanging out with young kids at that age isn't normal or desirable, and raging hormones push you towards what you desire, usually the oppposite sex

now he is 50 years old, with hardly any adult female relationships in his life, surely he must be feeling lonely, and regardless of what he has went through, wouldn't have a problem finding a female partner, but doesn't. instead he has a relationship with children that he looks after but there is no evidence that they are his. his last wife, who is mother of two of them confirmed that she didn't have sex with him and doesn't know who the sperm donor is, and we don't have any evidence or suggestion as to who the mother of the third child is. this all points towards him having no desire for females or adults, and instead has an unhealthy obsession with children. these unusual lifestyle choices don't do him any favours in appealing to the public

perhaps you can now understand why some people have an issue towards MJ, and why fans aren't taken seriously and considered loonies. MJ doesn't do anything to try and change that opinion, and neither do most fans, which in turn doesn't help MJ's case, as it just gives the impression that he is weird and out of touch with reality, and followed by fanatics who are similarly weird and out of touch

as this isn't an MJ site, you would have thought it would be a good place to discuss MJ objectively and seriously, and not bother about the inevitable jokes and digs, but instead the fans appear to fit in with the stereotype i've mentioned that describes his fans in general, which only seems to highlight that MJ fans are over biased and unrealistic in thier observations and statements. this isn't a debate, it's a discussion, so it's not an arguement between two sides, with both sides looking for a win, so instead of blindly defending any negative comment towards MJ, regardless of the truth, perhaps if a more open and honest manner was taken, the fans might be accepted and respected a bit more, instead of coming across like a radical muslim that fails to understand how ridiculous they sound

thoughout this site, people discuss prince without bias, and with various points of view coming across, no-one tries to defend him, and we find the facts and all sorts of other interesting views. wouldn't it be great if we could discuss MJ in the same way? that's what i would have expected from an MJ thread on prince.org. i would expect blind adulation of MJ on an MJ site instead, i'm sure they would appreciate it there

BoOTyLiCioUs said:

I think frank did Michael a good service, but I don't think his father did sadly. If his father had his way the up coming concerts would be a Jackson Family Honours set up.

In my opinion, the person Michael should never have let out of the fold was John Branca.

Swa

whatsgoingon said:

And if michael would of stayed with frank dileo or his father as his manager then things would be a lot better.

Swa said:

when was michael with john?

unique said:

The problem here, Unique is that you are posting articles from tabloid sites. ALL OF THEM. The other problem is your attitude. You come in here as well as with midnight mover and repeatly talk down and bash MJ fans. There is no problem with disagreeing on this issue but I think that fact that you and mnm REPEATLY talk down to us mj fans, is putting us on the defensive. If you’re going to have a debate with us, then grow up and learn how to have a discussion without insulting those who disagree with you.

As for the whole trial thing, speak for yourself. I know a lot of people that thought he was innocent and happy that he was acquitted. One of my friends who’s not even a MJ fan said that she thought he was innocent. People have varying opinions on this trial. This was not an OJ Simpson trial…they are totally different. And now, OJ is in jail for 15 years due to that robbery he committed a year ago so OJ got what was coming to him. Many fans including myself followed that MJ trial and did their hw by researching court documents. Oh and by the way, I have a college degree in criminology from one of the top universities in my program so I know what the hell I am talking about. I think the problem is that you base a lot of your information on rumors, not facts. Quite a bit of it is incorrect as well. There are always 2 sides to the story. I took and still take a look from 2 sides when it comes to MJ. If you want to have a debate about the trial or anything about him, I have the resources and information to back up on my beliefs. You have no problem marching your ass in here and making every comment you can about MJ’s personal life. A lot of people still respect and like MJ as a music artist. I work at 2 nightclubs….a top 40 nightclub and I hear his music all the time there…and a trendy bar so even if people don’t like him personally they still love his music. Many people know how to separate the man from the music. We want to talk about his music, not his personal life.

As for the fans, again, speak for yourself. Some radio dj was playing a song of his on the radio and he said before he played the song, that he had the best fans. There are diehard fans with any celebrity, not just MJ. Some Madonna fans think she’s the second coming and defend her down to a t. You just see more in MJ because he has huge fanbase.

I do agree with you on some points…not in this post…other posts. And I do think that you know what you are talking about when it comes to music. We agree to disagree.

whatsgoingon said:

And if michael would of stayed with frank dileo or his father as his manager then things would be a lot better.

I guess that the MJ rumor about all the concerts being canceled was NOT true after all.

FutureGirl said:

Wouldn't speak 2 soon if I were you!!!!!

eireboy34 said:

Why what did you hear now?

BoOTyLiCioUs said:

All I know is when Michael was with his father and with the Jacksons, he didn't have a fraction of the negativity , this either tells me his family in general kept him down to earth or his father was just better at PR than subsequent PR teams.

However, I think its his own personal choices that have done him most damage. He should have stopped with the surgery after 2 nose jobs at the most, therefore the media would never be stilll going on and on about his face and how he looks like a different person. Therefore all surgery should have stopped with Thriller.

Lastly but not least, if he was going to marry and start a family, why not marry someone who he obviously wants to spend his life with and have children with that they both want to raise together. He obviously married Debbie Rowe for legal reasons and so that he can claim children that may not be biologically his.

whatsgoingon said:

BoOTyLiCioUs said:



And if michael would of stayed with frank dileo or his father as his manager then things would be a lot better.

All I know is when Michael was with his father and with the Jacksons, he didn't have a fraction of the negativity , this either tells me his family in general kept him down to earth or his father was just better at PR than subsequent PR teams.



That's true. I think MJ became full of himself after the success of Thriller, and ever since then, he's been thinking of himself as the MAN. To me, anyone who's taken such a big hit in terms of reputation over the years has shown that they're not capable of handling their own career on their own. I honestly do feel that Michael was a humble man during his years with the Jacksons, but him going solo, achieving so much success with Thriller, changed everything.

At the same time, I also wonder how much his family has done to help him really clean up his act. I have a feeling that he's a stubborn man who doesn't listen to others easily, and that's why the same old bullshit continues over and over again, unless he gets into some major trouble- then it stops for good.




However, I think its his own personal choices that have done him most damage. He should have stopped with the surgery after 2 nose jobs at the most, therefore the media would never be stilll going on and on about his face and how he looks like a different person. Therefore all surgery should have stopped with Thriller.



I agree. Its amazing how such a big star has taken such a nose dive over the years. Its very sad The same didn't happen to Madonna or Prince either.




Lastly but not least, if he was going to marry and start a family, why not marry someone who he obviously wants to spend his life with and have children with that they both want to raise together. He obviously married Debbie Rowe for legal reasons and so that he can claim children that may not be biologically his.


Well, there might have been reasons why he went to Debbie. I've heard rumors that Lisa-Marie didn't want have his kids.

I think it's a shame that he also didn't realize how good looking he was. He was so fine. I think he and Lisa really liked each other. I just think that he rushed into marrying her because of allegations. You can see pictures of Lisa with all of her past lovers...and she looks the happiest with Michael. I personally think he should of dated long term and married the model Tatiana Thumbtzen. You can feel the chemistry between them. I think she really liked him as well.
[Edited 5/24/09 9:00am]

BoOTyLiCioUs said:

Yeah, I think the whole attitude Lisa puts on in recent times about her relationship with Michael Jackson isn't entirely honest. I think she's just feels embarassed about openingly admitting it, because she's afraid the others are going to tell her WTF she was thinking all these years, so she takes the safe way out, and tries to shrug off the whole deal, by saying that, she was young and was silly in those years.

As far as Tatiana goes, no clue what happened between her and Michael Jackson. I honestly think, that if Michael really wanted her- he would have found her after all those years. They did make a good looking couple, and probably would have had cute babies.
[Edited 5/24/09 9:16am]

suga10 said:

Michael Jackson Case Latest: Tatiana Thumbtzen Denies Affair With Star

JACKSON'S 'EX-GIRLFRIEND' ANNOUNCES AFFAIR WAS FAKE

A woman assumed to be an ex-girlfriend of MICHAEL JACKSON has declared their "affair" was completely made up for the benefit of the press.

TATIANA THUMBTZEN, who danced in Jackson's 1988 video for THE WAY YOU MAKE ME FEEL and was the first woman to kiss him in public, admits in her forthcoming book, THE WAY HE MADE ME FEEL, that she lied to the media about having a romance with the singer in 1993 - when he first faced allegations of child molestation.
Comment on this Article

Jackson, who's set to go to trial this month (JAN05) on separate child abuse allegations, said at the time, "I love her because she's warm, caring and exciting."

Thumbtzen once accompanied the BAD singer to the GRAMMY AWARDS and went on the road with him during his BAD tour.

Co-author TONIA RYAN says in a statement, "Here is another woman from Michael's past that people think he was romantically involved with or at least had some kind of sexual relationship with when he never did.

"Every other red-blooded male in America was after her (EDDIE MURPHY, PRINCE, ROBERT DE NIRO, MATT LeBLANC, etc) but Michael did not even go on a date with her. You do the math!"

The book, which is due out on 14 February (05), also alleges that Jackson had a fixation with child actors MACAULAY CULKIN and RICKY SCHRODER.

http://www.femalefirst.co...-2355.html

am i the only person, who seriously thinks that MJ is homosexual, and that's part of his problems, in that he is frustrated through being stuck firmly in the closet?

now hear me out, as i'm being completely serious here, all jokes aside, i'm interested in hearing what you lot have to say on this

throughout his life, think about all the photos you've seen with MJ, and you will see that very rarely is he pictured with other women. there are so many pix of him with kids, and you'll also notice that most of the kids are boys, and not girls. his only two well known relationships were with elvis's daughter, a marriage that lasted 2 years, in which she understandably says little about, although it's understood she married him to help him stop his drug abuse, as well as divert attention from his child abuse case with jordan chandler. his second short lived marriage to debbie rowe wasn't consumated, and she says she didn't ever sleep with him. that's pretty unusual for a homosexual male, don't you think?

i mentioned some of this before, and if you think about becoming a teenager and young adult with hormones raging, you naturally lust for sexual satisfaction, and hetrosexual males in particular will try to have sex with girls as much as possible. being in the position that MJ is in, being a good looking and famous young adult, he could probably have the pick of the girls, but you just don't hear anything about any girls, and girls who date celebrities are well known for kissing and telling, the bigger the celebrity, the more kiss and tell stories you will hear. but you don't hear any about MJ

if you have a look at his dress sense, and the way he moves on stage, it's far from typical of a hetrosexual male, and if you watch the live concerts where he participates with females, such as the way you make me feel, he doesn't really look like he is that interested. in fact when tatiana kissed him onstage once during that song, she was shortly fired and replaced with another model

he's been single for many years now, and although he's not the man he used to be, surely someone of his status would have no real problem finding a female partner. after being single and alone for so long, surely he must be lonely and want for a partner, so why don't you ever hear about him dating women? one of his best known relationships was with a chimpanzee, who slept in the same bedroom as him at home and in his hotel whilst on tour. not exactly the typical babe magnet is it?

perhaps "in the closet" is a subtle hint of his sexuality, perhaps he one day hoped to come out of the closet, but in the light of his child abuse cases it's not been considered the most appropriate thing to do. can you just imagine the flack if he openely came out before his last child abuse court appearances?

perhaps his religions, from jehovas witness to muslim have also played a part in this, and his strict abusive upbringing. his mother and father may look down on homosexuality and that's caused him to repress his true feelings, which in turn have caused him to change his appearance, to a more feminine form (tattood eyeliner and lips etc). he has spoken about his own child abuse from his father when he was younger, and sometimes that can affect someones sexuality. it's also common for those abused as children to go on to become abusers of children themselves. he has openly admitted sleeping with young boys and feels there is no wrong with it, which is a very unusual thing not only to do, but to openly admit, especially for a hetrosexual male. now, whilst most would consider the act of sleeping with a young boy to be child abuse itself, even if he did nothing else other than simply share a bed with a young boy, it doesn't sound like the kind of thing that any hetrosexual male would do. in fact normally hetrosexual males would keep a distance towards any form of intimacy towards another male in that way, so to openly admit doing so in a television interview is particularly strange. perhaps that was another attempt at trying to come out, but then the closet door was slammed back shut harder than before when he was involved in a further child abuse case

now, without taking the piss, joking and passing insults, can we please discuss this in a serious manner?



i've posted a couple of pix in order to help explain what i mean a bit better

unique said:

Nah, I don't believe Michael is gay. Asexual? maybe

I've always believed he has intimacy issues, but being homosexual, no.


Unique, there are these phone conversations that leaked on the internet some years back, you might be interested in those.

bboy87 said:

so i'm at least not alone in thinking he's not just a regular hetrosexual guy then. considering the nature of some of the songs, it's a bit strange for someone that's asexual / not interested in sex. maybe he is, it's something i've never considered about anyone, although maybe the pope and people like that are, but i would have imagined they were really closeted and repressed homosexuals

i wonder what he would be like if he did come out, if he would be happier like george michael, although his precoming out music was better. being unhappy usually makes for better music

what phone conversations? can you download them anywhere, or is there a transcript or something? what do they say?

unique said:

I wouldn't go far thinking he was "straight" either. I just think he doesn't fit an identity. It's different when it comes to George. About those conversations, hopefully I can find the place where I listened to them at, it was here once upon a time.

bboy87 said:

so i'm at least not alone in thinking he's not just a regular hetrosexual guy then. considering the nature of some of the songs, it's a bit strange for someone that's asexual / not interested in sex. maybe he is, it's something i've never considered about anyone, although maybe the pope and people like that are, but i would have imagined they were really closeted and repressed homosexuals

i wonder what he would be like if he did come out, if he would be happier like george michael, although his precoming out music was better. being unhappy usually makes for better music

what phone conversations? can you download them anywhere, or is there a transcript or something? what do they say?