npgmaverick said:

Funny unrelated thing about "I Love New York". In her "I Want To Tell You A Secret" movie, there is a rough cut of the song (perhaps self produced) that is kind of a rock pop take without the electronic flourishes of Stuart Price. It might have been missing a verse but guess who got sole credit as a songwriter? Madonna. I wouldn't doubt she does demo quite a lot of her songs and than works with producers to add to them.

badujunkie said:

well, her main collaborators used to be songwriters who also produced. her main collaborators for the last several albums have been producers who also write songs.

the difference as it pertains to her output is subtle, but it is there.

xlr8r said:

It was written by Lisa Stevens and Curtis Hudson.

Because Holiday is my favorite pop song ever, I did some research, both of them were in the band Pure Energy.

They released only one proper album plus some singles.

They are divorced now but have a 22 yo son.

So, does anyone have an article or report about what happened with Madonna and Bray exctly? Why did they argue and why were songwritiner credits split?
I only know she didn't write Everbody on her own, neither did Bray write Ain't No Big Deal on his own?

Who wrote Crimes Of Passion?

^They did divide the credits between those songs, I believe Stephen didn't like that "Ain't No Big Deal" did not end up on the first album, but the main reason they fell out is because he released the compilation In The Beginning / Pre-Madonna containing pre-1983 demos...

LiveToTell86 said:

well, there was a fell out in 1983, but then they became friends though.

So probably Bill was pissed because Big Deal didn't make the album, which means million of dollars less.

For Madonna and the writers Holiday was a big step.

LiveToTell86 said:

No. It was way before that. He's never been one to shy away from giving interviews, and I think he was a little peeved that a lot of his work on LAP and TIC was passed over.

^Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot about that, the actual reason for the fallout was Shep Pettibone remixing "Express Yourself" & "Keep It Together" for single versions and Madonna preferring them. The song "Get Over" was intended for TIC but it was given to Nick Scotti instead.

graecophilos said:

Yes, where *are* the people who will automatically agree with me when I dare ask an open question about Madonna on a forum unrelated to Madonna? "Haters" or anyone interested in a logical discussion, beware!

errant said:

Agreed.

VoicesCarry said:

well then why don't you chime in

badujunkie said:

Madonna usually hires the best in the business and that's generally what she's been good at - picking the best in the business. I don't think many of the fans understand how far that goes or what that means in the context of her musicianship. It's her business acumen that has given her staying power, not her musical talent. I respect her for that, but I'm not going to hail her as some underrated genius. Patrice Rushen is an underrated songwriter - Madonna, not so much. Time to get real.

At the core of it: I think she's a decent lyricist who has really struggled in that department as of late (and as Aaron pointed out, I feel she's regressed since the 90's, but it's probably because her recent collaborators have simply been less interesting, talented or innovative as the ones that preceded them).

Stick Madonna alone in a room with a pen, a piano and a sheet of music, and I don't think she'd get very far.

VoicesCarry said:

And how far would Janet Jackson get alone in a room with a pen, piano and a sheet of music? Madonna can play guitar, and a little drums and keyboards. What instruments does Janet play?
And the fact that Madonna surrounds herself with other talented people doesn't necessarily negate her own songwriting talent. Many people work with other people to create their stuff. Where would Michael Jackson be without Quincy Jones?

Glindathegood said:

And Janet can play keyboard. Neither of them can do it very well. These are pop stars, not musicians or songwriters. Can we move beyond the obvious?

As for Michael, it's very easy to argue that he's a better songwriter than Janet and Madonna combined, and I'm not even a fan.

People should think about what collaboration means in the context of music. If Bob Dylan hires a producer, there's collaboration. When Stevie Nicks works with Tom Petty, these are two musicians and songwriters collaborating. Madonna hires Timbaland to produce a record and add his spin to her lyrics (if she's written any), and that's a completely different form of collaboration. She adapts to the sound of whatever producer is moulding her material - the producer being chosen wisely, of course, for various reasons, most of them related to whatever image Madonna wishes to project at that moment and whatever goals she wishes to accomplish with the project.
[Edited 4/14/09 11:48am]

VoicesCarry said:

Well she wrote most of the tunes on that first album herself

Pertender
Shoo Be Doo
Everybody
Burning Up
Lucky Star
Think Of Me
Act Of Contrition

All have sole writing credit by madonna

paisleypark4 said:

Yeah, and Beyonce writes, too.

Songwriting credits serve a political and economic purpose for smart artists like Madonna, who know that publishing brings in the big bucks. They show that someone is smart enough to get their name on a track. In contrast, Whitney Houston was stupid because she never did - she could have, easily, with her commercial clout, but never took advantage of it. Or maybe she was just too honest. Either way, it's amusing to me to see solo writing credits for people like Britney Spears, as if she sat there and actually wrote an entire song, lyrics and music, without assistance. You can't judge someone's talent based on songwriting credits (nor can you judge vocal ability based on a studio track these days).

Nothing to me before or since indicates that she's somehow capable of genius solo songwriting. Lyrics, yes, songwriting no. There's a difference. Maybe she'd make a decent poet.
[Edited 4/14/09 12:02pm]

i think madonna dumbs her lyrics down to suit the pop vibe of her songs
or to just be "easy on the ear" and easy to sing along to or easy to be
remembered after hearing them on the radio once or twice.

she can certainly write good and deep lyrics. no one ever mentions the
song and almost everyone seems to hate it, even her long time fans but
for me personally, "mer girl" is one of the best songs of her entire
catalogue simply because of those amazingly well written lyrics. a lot
of songs on the "ray of light" album have far superior lyrics to any
of her other albums.

i'm sure she could write a lot more like that but she's marketed herself
as one thing and she sticks to it. it seems she's intent on being the
"queen of pop" until she finally calls it quit.

if she would have any other aspirations she would have already released
different types of albums with more subtle music, like piano and live
studio bands. stuff like the fanmade pianomix of "power of goodbye" is
amazingly beautiful and makes you realise how warm and different a new
madonna album could be if she would just stop trying to be the most
hip and the most in-touch and the most "pop" sensitive.

and the same reason, imo, why she doesn't stray from that path, like,
ever, is also the reason why she writes pretty basic and often 'dumb'
lyrics. they are in many cases still great 'pop' lyrics but nothing to
really be remembered for in regards to literary substance.

but i truly don't believe that it's a matter of can't. it's calculated
marketing and a case of won't or 'don't have to'.

i just wish she'd take more chances. the two times she went beneath her
own skin "erotica" and "ray of light" procudes much more intimate and
thought provoking, long lasting material than usual.

she should do that again. why on earth is she so hell bent on releasing
album after album of basically the same stuff?

IstenSzek said:

i love the lyrics on the "Like A Prayer" album. BS and E are great too, but "Death Do Us Part," "Express Yourself" and "Keep it Together" are some of the best pop lyrics ever.

But that's the basic question: Why do people believe she can't write?

As I pointed out in my first post, I think Madonna surely wrote some of her hits on her own - but over produced music by others.

Also I'd like to point out that Steve Bray, Pat Leonard, Shep Pettibone, Mirwais, Stuart Price and Orbit did write for others too, but it's not half as good as the songs they did for Madonna. Coincidence??

Just think of the songs Price wrote for Seal - they are nowhere near to the COADF stuff.

Nile Rodgers didn't write on LAV, but I think Pharrell's songs on Hard Candy are some of his best pop songs ever.

You don't even have to play an instrument to be a songwriter. You can hear melodies in your head and sing those to people who do play instruments who translate your melodies into chords.
If the rule is to be a real songwriter, you have to be able to write a song all by yourself with no assistance, then an awful lot of great artists would be disqualified.
[Edited 4/14/09 13:02pm]

Glindathegood said:

that's correct. Michael Jackdon wrote Heal The World, Childhood, Speachless among others in his head, without instruments on his Wanking Tree (it was featured in the Bashir docu).

George Michael wrote I'm Your Man, Kissing A Fool and Freedom (Wham! version) in his head.

Both are songwriters though.

That old bitch ain't underrated in any way, shape or form.

Wowugotit said:

and why?

George Michael plays guitar, bass, keyboards and percussion on his albums. He produces them and write mosts songs himself.

moussemaker said:

And now most of his songs are not as catchy or entertaining..

anyway..

Exactly ..who says the producer did not write the song? Who is to say that they did write the song?



Remember back in the day when the producer was not included as someone who wrote the track? Remember that? Remember they used to show who wrote the song and who produced the song SEPERATLEY?

I think that may be an issue

Yeah, and Beyonce writes, too.



And that's the problem...no one will ever know except for the producer and the songwriter themselves.

VoicesCarry said:

Again I cite "I Love New York" from"I'm Gonna Tell You A Secret". It's nearly finished expect for some additional music but is soley credited to Madonna. I think this is the rule (at least over 50% of the time) and not the exception. But who knows for sure. Something tells me that the Madonna of now is not that calculating to "plant" the song in order to fool critics (especially considering the supplemental CD is widely ignored...I have no idea what is with the recent half CDs of live material. It's a very cheap add on.

VoicesCarry said:

So again...1983/1984 Madonna had enough clout to take SOLE credit on some songs (often only album tracks at that...heavily in the case of "Like A Virgin" either) but in her hey day can't afford the same luxury.

Britney Spears has never had a sole writing credit as far as I can tell. She has written all of the lyrics for a few drippy ballads.

isn't there some quote from her where she said she wrote a ton of songs in the early days and then got lazy and had others start writing the melodies?
[Edited 4/14/09 15:55pm]

VinnyM27 said:

And I can just as easily turn it around and ask you why, if she's such an underrated, amazing songwriter, Madonna has failed to write songs on her own consistently throughout her career.

Bottom line is songwriting credits mean zilch if you're trying to qualify someone's talent.

VinnyM27 said:

She would be a fool to plant that song as some sort of evidence of her talent - it's a piece of shit.

Again, we're talking about songwriting credits. Do I think Madonna is capable of writing a song on her own? Yeah, anyone is, especially craptastic trash like I Love New York. Do I think she can write quality stuff without assistance? No.

I still fail to see what makes her underrated. Most of her fans think she's some sort of songwriting genius, and some of her critics have conned themselves into believing it when in reality it's her business plan they should be praising.
[Edited 4/14/09 16:18pm]