Her face looks too altered by surgery.

Why is she turning herself into Cher? She's worth so much more than this.

MattyJam said:

ugh

MattyJam said:

Whateva. She looks great, even if there is some noticeable surgical enhancement.

Besides, the fact that you're here talking about her looks rather than her music is justification enough for her to be inclined towards botox or surgery.

sassybritches said:

Honestly, this disturbs me, as I consider Tori not only a great artist, but a feminist role model. I thought she was more gorgeous before and find it sad that she gave in to the pressure to conform to conventional beauty, which in my mind, is far less beautiful.

heartbeatocean said:

i'm confused with the notion that a woman can't be concerned with her outside, "superficial", appearance AND be a feminist/feminist role model. i thought the idea of feminism was equality and unity with your fellow females. i didn't realize to be a feminist meant one must swing in the opposite direction and refuse conventional beauty.

perhaps feminists could use a role model who doesn't fall in line with the groupthink mentality which, ultimately, contradicts the whole basis of feminism.

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[Edited 3/14/09 20:01pm]

sassybritches said:

well, my hope is that women don't have to conform to some media driven idea of what female beauty must be. That they feel it is okay to be who they are without undergoing physical manipulations to conform to someone else's idea of what is right. Tori's beauty was astounding and unique, one of her assets, IMO.

And to me, the definition of "groupthink" is when everyone aspires to have the same nose.

heartbeatocean said:

haha, nice one!

but by saying you hope "women don't have to conform to some media driven idea of what female beauty must be" you are, in fact, asking that they conform to another view. your view. how about they do what they want as equal and free women, without us sticking our nose into it? no pun intended, i swear.

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[Edited 3/14/09 20:38pm]

sassybritches said:

Sure, women are free to do what they want. I am not in the position to have my photograph publicized through the mass media and my career does not depend on it. So I guess I am not in a position to judge the actions of others.

But aesthetically, I miss Tori's unique wonderful face. Now she looks a little plastic and artificial to me and I'm really sad about that.

My values rest on not obsessing with physical appearance, not obsessing about body image, not overly identifying with the body or how it looks. I am aware of the fact that I am one of very, very few women in this society who never worried much about being fat, rarely have worn makeup. I just feel there are so many more important things to concentrate on.

I am not requiring that all women bow to some feminist standard. But these are the values that I hold dear. Feminism has affirmed this belief that women have value beyond their bodies and physical appearances. And I get strength from that.

heartbeatocean said:

We all have values and we all make decisions based on those values. surely, tori's decision to look a certain way is based on her values. aside from her family, i'd probably bet her top value is her career. so she's made decisions based on both, content and appearance, to support those values. good for her for putting herself first and not what others want for her.

you may counter that she might be putting other first if her industry is the reason behind the decision to have work done. to that i would say one must weigh their values and if a sacrifice must be made, you should always sacrifice the lesser value to the greater value. if her career is of higher value than worrying about what people perceive of her use of cosmetic enhancement, then she has certainly put herself first.

on a side note (and a totally different thread ), you say you are not in a position to judge...i disagree. i think we are all in a position to be judgmental and we all need to be prepared to be judged. nothing else will keep us on our toes. most people say they don't want to judge BECAUSE, in reality, they don't want to be judged. i say BE JUDGED, just be ready for it and know why you value what you value with no fear of judgment for those values.

sassybritches said:

I am judging, yes. I do not like it one bit. But I guess what I mean is that if I were in the same shoes, perhaps I would consider it? My career is also very important to me, but I have never had to face that decision. I am just leaving room for that.

But I am truly suspicious of the idea that changing your face helps your career even if you are a star. I read an article recently about famous people who regretted their decision to get plastic surgery. One actress changed her very unique nose so much that nobody recognized her and her career plummetted.

So how much of this plastic surgery nonsense is based on illusion and vanity? Tori's fans adore her for her music and everything she is, why change? Maybe I am just naive.

heartbeatocean said:

i would have to say if jennifer grey's nose is what got her acting jobs, she has no business being an actress.

I loved, love and will continue to love the way this woman looks, sounds, feels, touches, tastes, smells, gives, works, talks, sings, plays, understands, communicates, loves, fights, muses, smiles, dances, rocks, bitches, glams it up until one of us (she or I) drops dead.

And hopefully long after that.

TRON said:

I agree with all of this. And, she hugs very nicely too.

now I'm feeling guilty...

www.yessaid.com

new song, welcome to england.

thoughts?...

I love the new song.
As far as the picture, although Tori has probably had plastic surgery and Botox, she doesn't look like that in real life. The album cover has been photoshopped to show her in a certain way. I guess it fits in somehow with the idea she is trying to get across with the album. She doesn't look as plastic and artificial when you see casual pictures of her.
I don't get the feminist criticism of makeup or caring about your body or appearance. Why can't people concentrate on more than one thing? I can think about my looks and also deeper things like politics or art. It's not one or the other.
Just because I care about how I look doesn't mean I think physical appearance is the be all of everything and women don't have any value besides how they look.
I find when I wear makeup and feel in shape, I have greater self esteem and am a nicer person and feel more confident in my ability in other non-physical areas. For me, dressing up, doing my hair and wearing makeup gives me confidence. I don't see why I shouldn't do something that makes me feel good about myself.
I find this idea that caring about your appearance is unfeminist very outdated. Feminists used to think that in the 70's but you rarely hear that from contemporary feminists.

Glindathegood said:

great, you have a healthy relationship to your looks
I guess no one on this thread understands a thing I say
and if you can tell me that this culture does not have a problem with objectifying women, and that women, especially teenage girls do not respond with body image issues then hallelujah, I am an outdated feminist

but I wonder why I personally know a fourteen-year-old bulimic
but I guess women's magazines no longer obsess about dieting
and it's perfectly normal for every female performer to surgically alter her face

hallelujah I'm outdated praise the lord

sassybritches said:

looked for it, can't find it

heartbeatocean said:

http://ayohay.com/blog/ta...o-england/

heartbeatocean said:

yes, and i know 14 year old boys taking steroids. and what? body image concern is not a male or female thing, its a human thing. chalking it up to chauvinism or feminism or whatever...man, its stupid to categorize. it's called life and we all want to look our best and some people, male and female, deal with it via surgery. who cares?

do ya like her music? do ya enjoy her art? great! she's an artist, not a role model.

TRON said:

there's apparently another song out there as well...SOOOOO salty i'm not at sxsw this year. since i've been going, this is the first year i've skipped out (due to my pending move back to the west coast)...couldn't have been a worse choice!

Bullimia and anorexia and other body image disorders are very complicated. It'a gross simplification to say they are caused by magazines, pop stars and other cultural things.
A lot of people who suffer from those have very difficult family situations. They feel they are out of control in their life and they feel their weight is the only thing they can control. The message they get that there is something wrong with them often comes from their parents not from magazines. Unfortunately some parents will tell their kids they look fat and are obsessed with food and pass that on to their kids.
If magazines were the cause, many more people would be bullimic or anorexic since we are all exposed to the same cultural influences.

Glindathegood said:

my cousin is bulimic/anorexic. she's also an actress. i don't doubt that body image plays a big part in her illness, especially as she was a fat child. however, i agree with you that this comes from parenting/personal issues rather than societal standards. my cousin is from a VERY affluent family background and had everything handed to her...she came out of undergrad with her education paid for, she studied theatre in london for two years without any cost to her (her parents covered this in full), she has no loans or debts for her education, her parents paid for her car, insurance, and rent, as well as provided her with a "family" credit card. having done nothing on her own (or feeling that way) she feels as though the only control or illustration of independence she can exert is through this illness.

i agree that this is a parenting issue and not a cultural/societal issue.

That's interesting. I've seen pictures of people before they became anorexic and bullimic and for the most part they weren't obese to begin with, maybe a little plump but certainly not fat. But for some reason, they think they are.
Look at Princess Diana who had bullimia. She was never fat as a young child or teenager, only slightly curvy and plump.

3 new songs on www.undented.com AND tori discusses her tour, which will be from July until Christmas! Holler!

I really like "500 Miles." Sounds really dreamy.

sassybritches said:

And the principles of feminism apply to all of humanity. I have always felt these principles apply equally to men and women in obtaining freedom from cultural oppression.

And Tori is a role model for me, personally and artistically, which (especially in her case) I cannot separate.

But I'm afraid I am feeling like I better bump off this thread. It's not the place to be having this discussion I guess. I feel like everything I say is being misconstrued and my basic complaint (which is valid) is being dismissed.

Glindathegood said:

cultural phenomena is a SYMPTOM of cultural sickness
your claim that these things are not related, that the personal and the cultural have nothing to do with each other, in my mind, is also a gross simplification and absolutely incorrect

but WHATEVER!!!

heartbeatocean said:

I don't get your point. What are you saying because someone like Tori is famous and influences people, she shouldn't wear makeup, wear interesting clothes, do her hair, watch her diet and exercise because that's a cultural influence that's likely to lead to obsession with looks.
The culture reflects things not just influences people. Like it or not, a lot of women are interested in looking nice and having a great body. You don't like wearing makeup or staying in shape. That's your choice. But don't tell me I can't wear makeup, like fashion or go to the gym. And don't tell Tori Amos it's wrong to have plastic surgery or Botox if that's her personal choice and how she wants to look.
Live you life how you want, but accept that everyone is different and other people will make different choices than you do.