bboy87 said:

He certainly did get exposed to and schooled by the masters of melody and production huh?

"Heaven can wait" also had some excellent vocals by Mike. Still love that song.

thesexofit said:

I agree. As great as The Jacksons were with harmonies - there is something extraspecial with MJ's multilayered background vocals.

Swa

Swa said:

He learned from Quincy, Berry Gordy, Stevie, Marvin, and the Gamble/Huff duo so he definitely had good teachers
[Edited 3/11/09 22:24pm]

bboy87 said:

stop kissin his ass, he aint that good

bboy87 said:

stop kissin his ass, he aint that good

EmbattledWarrior said:

I ain't kissin' nobody's ass. I'm just saying he observed their techniques and used what he learned in his own stuff

bboy87 said:

iight good, just making sure, thought you were comparing as well
As good as MJ is he isn't as good as them men he watched over

EmbattledWarrior said:

Have they REALLY change? Let's not forget, they used to print a LOT of rumors while back. Hell at one time they doctored an MJ photo to make him look blond and blue-eyed, lol. Like I said, I'll trust The Sun more than I'll trust that site. Hell they probably copy what that AEG dude allegedly told The Sun about Michael's new single coming out before the first concert, lol.

Swa said:

A fan on MJJC named arXter took Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, HIStory, Blood On The Dancefloor, and Invincible, and turned down the main vocals so that you can hear the background tracks. It makes you appreciate the production on those albums. Heaven Can Wait is really something

Timmy84 said:

Then there isn't any news about May 28th - just some rumblings about new music without there being any backup info or mention of May 28th or any other dates for that matter. It sounds like a good time to release some new music - lets see if anything happens.

bboy87 said:

Like "childhood", Iam glad "heaven can wait" gets some love here. He kills that second verse. Definately one of the highlights off "invincible".

And Mike, as I said on the other thread, is underated as a producer. Sure he often works with others, but he knows what he wants and is unique as a producer.

Though I know Quincy produced it (with Mike as co producer,) listen to those stacked harmonies on the chorus of "leave me alone" Amazing stuff. Subleties like this may take hours, but its worth it! You can blast it as overproduce, but nobody arranges backing vocals as intricate as that, thats Richard Carpenter, Bee Gee's, Queen good! Excellent stuff nobody really discusses.

thesexofit said:

Not to mention Marvin Gaye good. Even in songs he didn't write, he used the vocal multi-layering as his creme de la creme, that's one reason he gets credit for producing songs. There's something they call a "vocal producer". I found this while looking through credits for Brandy's "Afrodisiac" and while people like Timbaland and Kanye musically produced tracks, Brandy got credit as vocal producer, lol. It makes sense. Sometimes artists are allowed to be given credit on songs that they have either no lyrical or musical output. There's a certain mastery to vocals that people never look at. Why you think Ray Charles was a master at that?

Timmy84 said:

Great points.I never thought about it like "vocal producer". Mike, to me anyway, is one of the kings at arranging vocals, or at least, one of the very best.

Predictible with his productions he ain' LOL, and thats one of the many things great about him. Hopefully, he has not lost that unique quality

Timmy84 said:

Great points.I never thought about it like "vocal producer". Mike, to me anyway, is one of the kings at arranging vocals, or at least, one of the very best.

Predictible with his productions he ain' LOL, and thats one of the many things great about him. Hopefully, he has not lost that unique quality

thesexofit said:

I don't know about that. To me, Michael HAS been very predictable.

Though I know Quincy produced it (with Mike as co producer,) listen to those stacked harmonies on the chorus of "leave me alone" Amazing stuff. Subleties like this may take hours, but its worth it! You can blast it as overproduce, but nobody arranges backing vocals as intricate as that, thats Richard Carpenter, Bee Gee's, Queen good! Excellent stuff nobody really discusses.

thesexofit said:

'Leave Me Alone' is a severely underatted track, too much associated with it's video.

EmbattledWarrior said:

I ain't kissin' nobody's ass. I'm just saying he observed their techniques and used what he learned in his own stuff

bboy87 said:

That's the way Gamble and Huff said he was. They say he didn't speak much.

Let us not forget that he worked with the Motown producers that probably taught him a lot. Especially on the performance end of things.

Marrk said:

some fans say that BAD didn't age well, I disagree, "Leave me alone" was before its time, listen to how many layers in the chorus of the track, one the most underrated cuts on the album,Liberan Girl is another underrated track on the album.

Charlie Chaplin’s “Smile” and "Have You Seen My Childhood?" by Michael Jackson...

This is music that will illustrate a very unique mixing, and balancing assignment. It is "Smile", the Charlie Chaplin composition and "Have You Seen My Childhood?" performed by Michael Jackson. We recorded “Smile” and "Have You Seen My Childhood?" March 29, 1995 at the Hit Factory Studios in New York. It is a recording and mixing situation that I have had a bit of experience with over the years, so conveying the beauty of this lovely music, to the eventual listener, was right up my alley.

This piece of music is played by a large orchestra, mainly strings, with vocal. Part of the music, but more or less incidental, is a rhythm section, mainly electronic, with synthesizer parts and colors that have been overdubed. To me, when recording a piece of music of this style, the mixing concept actually begins before the conductors down beat. Here’s the way it works,(for me anyway.) First I looked over the arrangement, and discussed the studio set-up with Jeremy Lubbock, the arranger.

I decided to set up the orchestra, (in the studio), with the physical positioning of the intruments clearly in mind. In other words, the positioning of the instruments in the stereo panorama of the final mix is precisely the same as the way I set up the orchestra in the studio for the initial recording.

I borrowed a studio set-up technique that I used some years back, in Chicago, in Studio ‘A’ at Universal Recording, when I was recording the Strings of The Chicago Symphony Orchestra, performing some Gustav Mahler selections for RCA Victor Red Seal.

Actually Mahler had noted on the score what the orchestra set-up must be for the the performance of his music that we were doing at the time. This is precisely the orchestra set-up that I used for “Smile” for the Michael Jackson recording. What makes it different from what we frequently hear in recordings of this type, is that the first violins are set up to the left of the conductor, and the second violins are set up to the right of the conductor. The violas are just behind the first violins and the celli are behind the second fiddles.

The basses are in the rear, more or less in the middle. I did indulge myself a bit when it came to the Harps. Jeremy wrote the harp part to be performed by two harps, so I placed the harps far left and right to add a bit of left-right intensity interest in the mix.

The studio I selected for this recording was the large music studio at the “Hit Factory” in New York. In some recordings of this type I would have chosen to record the orchestra in a concert hall to give the music the acoustical ambience of true concert orchestra reality. However since this piece is rather “Pop Music” in concept, I figured that a large music studio would be the place to realize this piece.

To check for presence when the string section has assembled and is ready to start, have each player play the same pitch (note) separately. Listen in the control room to make sure that each player sounds equally present. You can then make individual adjustments by moving a player closer to the mic if he sounds sounds too far away or have him move back a bit if he sounds too close.

With a little practice you can ask the entire string section to play a chord and when you hear all the notes in the chord with equal presence, you will have a good balance. Both of the above methods are very simplistic in approach and will give a fairly good balance but not a "great" string sound. There is much more involved in getting a superb string sound than just getting equal volume level and 'presence' on all parts.

My favorite way to balance a string section, and to my ear the most satisfying, is to have a conductors part in the control room with me that has all the notes of the string parts on it, including all harmony and counter-melodies indicated, etc.

I will ask the string section to rehearse the part, including all the dynamics that are indicated, and as I read the string parts on the conductors sketch, I visualize each part in my minds ear and make sure that each part has equal presence and dynamic level. To me, this is the best way to balance a string section because this method takes into account the dynamic differences that occur in the different registers that the parts are being played in.

It has always seemed to me that a good string section should be miked and recorded in almost the same way you would mike and record a fine choir. There often is, to my ear, a definite sonic similarity between these two musical sound sources. I normally record a string section on two or more channels of the multi-track tape. These two channels are panned hard left and hard right in the monitor speakers. During the recording the violins are panned full left, the violas center but slightly to the right and the celli are panned from center to right.

For recording a large orchestra in a large studio my preferred microphone technique is of course, based on a Decca-Tree microphone system.

I have used the Decca-Tree mike system for many years. I simply love it for this application!

I would characterize the “Decca-Tree” system as a classic microphone placement system. It is actually an elaborate, beautifully designed and manufactured microphone stand. Here’s how it works...

The Decca Tree is a technique of recording that grew out of Decca's research and development into stereo which started in 1954. The first Decca stereo products (60 records and 4 reproducers) came in 1958.

Decca Records has a long tradition of developing their own methods and technology, and so they set out to develop their own method of recording stereo as well as developing their own proprietary designs of console and other recording equipment.

The use of the three microphone technique that has come to be known as the "Decca Tree" grew out of the desire to maximize the clarity and depth of opera and orchestral recordings. The actual "tree" is a triangle of microphones is placed roughly ten to twelve feet above the stage level, above and just behind the conductor, arranged on a specially designed and constructed microphone stand. The orchestra’s image is adjusted so that the center mike goes equally to both left and right channels of the stereo buss. The right tree mike goes to the right stereo buss, and the left tree mike to the left stereo buss.

When this technique was first used in 1954, the microphones used were Neumann KM 56s, tilted 30 degrees toward the orchestra. Other microphones were tried including the cardioid M 49 (in baffles), in 1955. Soloists with the orchestra are usually spot miked.

As for the spacing of the three mikes themselves, this varies with the venue used and with the size of the ensemble. The size of the triangle itself varies with the amount of width and spaciousness desired. Here I am adjusting one of the ‘Sweetener” mikes that I placed in the orchestra to bring out a part.


Bruce Swedien

seeingvoices12 said:

'Leave Me Alone' isn't about the press, rollercoasters, Elephant man or Liz Taylor's shrine.

"There was a time i used to say girl i need you, but who is sorry now?"

It's quite bitter in places, about an ex annoying the hell out of a man. I love it when i ignore the video.

Mixing Thriller...

When we first finished mixing “Thriller”, the album, we had much too much playing time on the sides of the LP. “THRILLER” came out in the days of the long-playing album. I know it was over 25 minutes per side. Of course on LP’s, if you have too much time on a side, it minimizes the volume level, and low frequency response, that you can put on the record during mastering. 18 minutes per side on an LP, in those days was just right for good sound. We were way over!

I kept telling the guys that the sides are too long for good sound! They didn’t listen to me! Quincy even says that one time I got really mad, and slammed the control room door! I don’t remember that! ‘Q’ says that it’s true. Of course, I am very passionate about my work.

I took the tapes to Bernie Grundmans to master them, and returned to Westllake Studios to play the mastered album. Quincy had scheduled a meeting with Michael, himself, Rod, Freddy De Mann, Michael’s manager, at the time, myself and all the big moguls from Epic Records. The Epic folks had two big bottles of Champagne on ice to toast “Thriller”. Needless to say, Epic records was very anxious to get their hands on “Thriller”!!!

I played the reference LP’s in the control room. We listened, and the sound on the LP is dog doo-doo. It was horrible... Quincy remembers that we had 28 minutes on each side... I felt like shouting “I TOLD YOU SO!!!” The Epic dudes were poping corks, but out of the corner of my eye, I saw Michael sneak out of the control room, and go to the other studio, across the hall. Quincy saw him too and followed him. I was next. Then Rod and Freddy. I remember that Michael was crying, he was heart-broken. Again, I felt like shouting “I TOLD YOU SO!!!”

Quincy Jones, as always, comes to the rescue!!!

And so, Quincy, Freddy De Mann, Rod, myself, all of us, and Michael just sat there. Quincy said let’s take two days off, come back in, and finish one song a day. We had 9 songs on the album, “The Girl Is Mine” was already out, so we needed 8 more days.

To quote Quincy Jones...”And we put those babies..put ‘em in the pocket man, that was it, it was over, over!” We edited the songs down, we remixed and overdubbed. In 8 days I was back at Bernie Grundmans. The rest is history...

I think that “Thriller” was such a phenomenal success because the music that was on it, reached everyone! Great songs! Killer songs! “Thriller” went everywhere, it appeals to people from 8 to 80. Everywhere in the world. I don’t think that’s ever happened before. Just think... a young black kid, being the idol of so many millions of kids all over the world. That never happened before.

Elvis is the guy...

Something else happened with “Thriller” that I find very interesting.... Up until the tremendous success of “Thriller”, I would hear my white friends say, “Ray Charles is OK, but Elvis is the guy, you know!” or, “Stevie Wonder is cool, but check out Billy Joel!”. Like it’s not possible to go there. Well they don’t say that anymore. I am intensly proud of being a part of the making of Michael Jackson’s “Thriller”. The biggest selling album in the history of recorded music!!!

Bruce Swedien

Bruce on mixing the Thriller album

bboy87 said:

Read that before, i'm glad it was released when it was though. Now it would be full of filler crap. like Thriller25.

We need a proper expanded version for Thriller30, it'll happen, only 3 years. Starlight, Hot Street ect in CD quality, No interviews or Fergie. Please.

bboy87 said:

Read that before, i'm glad it was released when it was though. Now it would be full of filler crap. like Thriller25.

We need a proper expanded version for Thriller30, it'll happen, only 3 years. Starlight, Hot Street ect in CD quality, No interviews or Fergie. Please.