graecophilos said:

I'm sure most people would agree MJ had much bigger influence on music than the Beatles. Are u stupid? I don't care what you think. Give me some arguments.
You don't see any innovation in MJ's music, I see plenty.
Why are talking of Quincy? As far as I can remember, Michael worked with other people as well.
As far as I'm concerned, I believe Prince was an innovative artist, so was Michael. What made Prince more innovative than Michael? Let me know?

Bad had (and was the first album to EVER have) FIVE #1 singles (six top 10)
Faith had FOUR #1 singles (six top 10)

Bad sold 8 million in the USA
Faith sold 10 million in the USA
(Bad sold more than 30million worldwide compared to Faith's 20million - at the time of release, in 1988, Bad was the second biggest selling album in history, behind his own Thriller album)

Unquestionably Michael Jackson's Bad World Tour was the BIGGEST TOUR IN HISTORY at the time (a record which MJ continually broke himself with future tours)

So for me it is kinda impossible to go past MJ. Michael Jackson wasnt JUST big in 1988 because of the Bad album, he was big because his music career dated back to 1969 and had collected sixteen #1 hit songs to that point, had the top two biggest selling albums ever, the biggest tour, a world record for having his first four singles ever release (jackson 5) ALL go to #1, and having the first FIVE (first time ever) singles from BAD go to #1. He was considered to be the greatest entertainer in the world and possibly EVER back in 1988, before he even DID the Dangeous and HIStory album/tours!

That is not MJ fan rambling that is facts! Michael Jackson was the biggest person on the planet in 1988. No question!

mega1999fan said:

You pretty much stated all of the facts. I think this end the dicussion. Thank u very much.

Bishop31 said:

You're very welcome:)

Bishop31 said:

but being big doesn't mean just facts. MJ sold 2 mio records of Thriller this year. that's much. But he wasn't big.

Speeddemon. You say MJ's music was innovative. In which way?

I can tell you why the Beatles were innovative. The took inspiration from the underground and brought this right into the mainstream, when no others dared to do this.
They experiemnted with new sounds, hell, they CREATED new sounds (Have you ever heard of Rain, Tomorrow Never Knows).
One could say they robbed other people's ideas, but they transfered this well into mainstream music. From 1965 til 1967 they drwaned from they drug experience. John Lennon was one of the first people who dealt with totally personal stuff in his songs.
Yesterday and Eleanour Rigby were two of the first songs from a rock band with a proper string section.

I'm sorry but Mj always played it pretty safe.

What's innovative in Thriller? Three songs were written by Rod Temperton, an excellent songwriter, but he has a certain style he never got rid off.
Billie Jean featured a great bassline, but at least since CHIC loud and heavy basslines were nothing special.

And MJ always was too commercial to come up with innovative sounds.

Could someone of the more mature fans, and someone who actually likes Prince and not only MJ, tell this boy how spoiled he is by MJ's propaganda?

Btw, someone who names himself after such a stupid Mj song....
[Edited 12/25/08 6:19am]

thread question remains who was bigger. 1988 - GM vs. MJ
michael jackson was bigger.
take or leave the answer, but you asked for it.
no two ways about it.

mega1999fan said:

Okay, you're right. Though i dislike that fact (and how some weird fans's arguments)

A'ight, that's enough:

@ this thread...


[Edited 12/25/08 7:02am]

graecophilos said:

hey I love speed demon, but that was fucking hilarious anyways lollll

MJ was one of the biggest selling artists this year. So Yes, stupid guy, that translates to being big. Thriller's celebration was all over the place, from commercial to viral internet showings.



A lot of people were doing this, not only the Beatles. All music forms were created by bringing out the best of different other music forms.
They were inspired by popular Rock & Roll singers and many black entertainers. They were not underground by any means.
And they didn't bring anything in the mainstream in their initial breakthrough. Later on, they did use sitar in pop, brought new ideas, that's right. But they mostly were influenced by their environment. The Beach Boys's Pet Sounds encouraged them to do Revolver. Frank Zappa's Freak Out gave them the idea of Seargant Pepper. Bob Dylan was the inspiration for Rubber Soul. They were just like MJ, Prince or others who innovated by using past ideas and uplifted them into new directions.



Listen to They Don't Care About Us,Who Is It, Why You Wanna Trip On Me, these songs brought new sounds as well. As far as I can remember, MJ was always ahead oh his time by bringing his own sound in popular music.
He used ad libs, human beat box, electronic and strings, his songs structures banished conventional song construction. He melted soul,Rock and rap and whatever other styles.




Just like the Beatles: Yellow Submarine, I Want To Hold Your Hand,... pretty scary!

You're a stupid guy. Did you ever heard Stranger In Moscow, They Don't Care About Us,Scream, Who Is It. Michael dealt with fear, paranoia, mysticism, politics,...



In 1983, nothing sounded like Billie Jean or Wanna Be Startin's Somethin'.




Yes, and the Beatles were an underground band. Damn, you're stupid!

actually a lot of songs sounded like billie jean or wanna be startin something. Check out Lionel Richie, Sting, Donna Summer etc. in 1983 even go back to earlier songs like Good Times, Another One Bites the Dust etc. It's just that when Michael did it, he reached something close to perfection with those elements that were present in hits

MJ is a pioneer for sure and has great music, but it's really an extension of what was being done already and then it slowly evolved into his signature sound with Bad and so forth, even though there was always mainstream music that sounded like his type of song before and after the releases.

And I'm sure he's borrowed much from underground. Though he has amazing beatboxing, he was not the first to do so and definitely not the last.
[Edited 12/25/08 8:15am]

damn didn't know that "faith" sold more than "bad", news to my ears on this Christmas day. Being that I was only 6 years old in 1988, from what i remember, Michael Jackson was all over the place. Tv, Radio, Movies, T-shirts, concerts, MTV, Vh1, BET, everywhere. At the same time, i do remember hearing and seeing George Michael quite often as well. Funny thing though, i remember being more fond of the "Father Figure" song, than "Faith"....my parents must have sat me in front of the television a lot because I even remember faintly seeing the "Careless Whisper" video on MTV too.

Bishop31 said:

Michael won!!!!!. Case closed!

Has someone realized how often speeddemon calls me stupid, haha? ´

"Speed, you're a fighter, not a lover"....

monk76 said:

NO-HO! He said Faith sold more, first round goes to GM. He didn't say that I Want Your Sex was pretty much long in the top 5 and a #2!!

And that's exactly what Mj fans don't get. It's not important if a song is #1 when it goes downstairs the second week, and noone's talking about it.

Sex was "only" #2 but caused much more controversy and hype than "I Just can't Stop loving You", which only hyped because it was the first new song.

The BAD tour was better though. It's in fact the only MJ solo tour I like. This served as a blueprint for the other two tours.

alphastreet said:

you must have destroyed speeddemons world! but you're right. But don't you think Prince was more risky and innovative?

Was there much that did sound like When Doves Cry?

Also once again I'd like to point clear that although Quincy Jones might be my favorite producer, he's not a risky one. He's a master, a craftsman, who bring quality even ton the worst songs. But he was not a mad professor who experimented with sounds.

That a lot of the "innovation" comes from Quincy you can hear on the albums he did during the Thriller period.
Masterjam, The Dude, Gimme The Night... Especially the dude uses the same gimmicks as on Thriller. I just don't see innovative thing on it. Sorry.

1988 will always belong to the king!

Here's the stats:

Bad-the album
US 200 #1, US R&B #1 UK #1
+++++
I Just Can't Stop Loving You Hot 100 #1, R&B #1, UK #1
Bad Hot 100 #1, R&B #1, UK #3
The Way You Make Me Feel Hot 100 #1, R&B #1, UK #3
Man In The Mirror Hot 100 #1, R&B #1 UK #21
Dirty Diana Hot 100 #1, R&B #5, UK #4
Another Part Of Me Hot 100 #11 R&B #1 UK #15
Smooth Criminal Hot 100 #7 R&B #2 UK #8
Leave Me Alone UK #2
Liberian Girl UK #13

Worldwide Sales- around 29 million copies

The tour: 123 dates attended by 4.4 million
grossed over $125 million

Faith the album
US 200 #1, US R&B #1, UK #1
+++++
I Want Your Sex Hot 100 #2, R&B #43, UK #3
Hard Day R&B #21
Faith Hot 100 #1 UK #2
Father Figure Hot 100 #1 R&B #6 UK #11
One More Try Hot 100 #1 R&B #1 UK #8
Monkey Hot 100 #1 R&B #1 UK #13
Kissing A Fool #5 R&B #33 UK #18

Worldwide sales- over 20 million copies

The tour: 137 dates attended by ?
grossed over ??

graecophilos, do you know the details of the Faith tour? I'm still looking


So basically, from 1987 to 1989, Michael and George could be equal billing with Madge at #2 or 3, with Prince and Bruce Springsteen following

So for the ones who were old enough to see at least one of these tours


I hate you very much

speeddemon said:

MJ doesn't have his own sound. Pop artists don't have that, they need collaborators to achieve a new sound to stay relevant each time they put out something. He did end up repeating certain formulas that make it seem he has a sound, but that's more like not having enough ideas.

"They Don't Care About Us", "Stranger In Moscow" & "Who Is It" are indeed the most original things MJ has done post-Thriller but that's far from his whole discography.

Since Thriller, MJ has never been ahead of his time, he jumped on the New Jack Swing bandwagon in 1991, the Jimmy Jam/Dallas Austin/David Foster/R. Kelly sound on HIStory and let's not get started on Invincible that has absoutely nothing original on it and was just MJ trying to fit in the hip hop craze of this decade. Oh and I heard even the Bad album was trying to achieve the Flyte Tyme sound already...

bboy87 said:

@ the last comment.

I'm surprised no one has info on how much George grossed, which was probably a lot since his tour was as big a draw as Michael's.

I think MJ and GM were the top dawgs between '87 and '89.

Timmy84 said:

I don't know anything about his Faith tour. there is a hole concert on youtube in awful quality. Someone literally filmed the screens...
About how much money he made..,. who knows. Honestly, I think George is not soemone who tells people how much he groosed and stuff. He must have made millions with his 25 Live tour (It lasted 2 years) but no official statement was released. I don't care anyway, I loved the concert I was in.

I hate those who were lucky enough to see MJ and HM live in 1988/1989 too!

The only difference is: Apart from the Monkey video, there aren't any official clips of the FAITh tour.
There's a recording of Monkey (not the video, the performance) which is quite cool in terms of SINGING AND Performance! And of I Want Your Sex live from Sydney.
Also there are three clips of a Madrid concert from 1989.

graecophilos said:

George Benson's album produced by Quincy which came out between OTW and Thriller was excellent too and not that different either. Though I love all of mj's music including that time period, there was so much r&b/pop music that sounded similar to it before and after mj's releases, and Quincy Jones was always a good producer.

I agree When Doves Cry is innovative, it's the sound all the big pop artists copied after, especially the flyte tyme sound jimmy & terry did for Janet and others. I had an 80's marathon the other day and purposely left mj out, most of the songs I played back to back for an hour were linked back to Prince. Produced by Prince, produced by jam & lewis, produced by andre cymone, jellybeat etc. I think he was creative in the 80's the way the neptunes and timbaland are but very underrated at the same time.
[Edited 12/26/08 8:58am]
[Edited 12/26/08 8:58am]

graecophilos said:

Ah I see.

Sorry, nothing sounded like Billie Jean in 1983. Michael had this ability to be ahead of his time artistically. He sure was influenced by his environment but he took different elements to create a new entity. Clearly, you can't stick Billie Jean in any category: It's neither funk, r&b or pop.
I don't see any corollation between Billie Jean and Another One Bites The Dust or Good Times.



Yes, just like everything that is made in music. The Beatles sound was coming from a convergence of influence, including the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds, that set the blueprint for their future experimentation.
By your logic, the Beatles were not innovative as well.
Prince learned from the Rick James lexicon to lay down his musical ground.



Nobody was the first to do anything. Being innovative is to bring out existing things and create something new with it.
Rock & Roll was born from years of evolution of R&B.
Hip Hop was created from an amalgam of funk, disco involved in a different social climax.
Michael innovated by melting his various influences to create his own sounds, sounds you immediately identified with him.

yes he definitely developed a signature sound

did you know mj was the one who suggested to queen they make another one bites the dust a single?

alphastreet said:

But that it sounded more like Chic.

Yes, I believe Prince was risky, but just for the sake of being risky.
His lackness was to be spoiled by an eagerness to chase risk and innovation, without finding cohesiveness.
Except few moments of brightness, most of Prince material sounds repetitive, fluffy,amateurish. Quantity over quality.
On the other hand, Michael found perfect balance between creativity and commercialism, which I find more difficult to achieve.

Otherwise, When Doves Cry is indeed a masterpiece, but more of an exception in Prince's catalogue. This song found a mass audience without artistic concession.



Yes, and Midnight Star, Slave or the Bar-Kays sounded like Prince as well.

alphastreet said:

Yes, I know. And it became their biggest hit ever.

I once said Ring My Bell sounded very Prince and I got flack for it, so maybe some of the funk prince did was also underground and he brought it to the mainstream. Maybe Vainandy will have something to say about that

and yeah Another One Bites the Dust, along with Bohemian Rhapsody are great. MJ had a great ear for hits back then.

Timmy84 said:

yeah i thought it sounded like good times