yes I agree there are many veteran superstars today and mj is definitely one of the big ones

and I'm one of those mj fans that also looooves Madonna and can admit she's a bigger star than him today. However, I wish he would come back and crush her like in the old days

LiveToTell86 said:

And MJ is the biggest superstar overall, so what?
Yes, it's a pity he doesn't release new material, but that doesn't erase his past career. MJ was a biggest superstar than Madonna from 1969 to 2000. And, he still sells more albums than her today. And no, Abba didn't sell more albums than MJ this year.
Just accept the fact that no matter what he does, he'll always be bigger than Madonna in the eyes of the world.

I think MJ fans just come up with sales and figures. There are people that sold more and who had more influence on culture and music than MJ. The Beatles definitively and some say Elvis.
The Beatles sold more than MJ, had more impact and more and bigger hits. They may not have sold 50 mio of their album (although they come very close to that figure) but the 60s was anothjer period. You have to analyze the cultural and historical context to understand WHY Mj has sold so much. sure, he was big and made great music. But it's a fact in the 80s everyone sold shit loads of records.

Btw, this topic is about GM being bigger than MJ in 1988 in the USA?

And what do some of you consider big? Big means imo having an impact, reaching people's souls and minds...
and I think it's right to ask that. Because certainly MJ became a freak sensationa nd a big joke for many in 1988.

even if mj was kind of a joke in 1988, it's better having mj as a joke in 1988 than 2008

anyways this thread got me listening to some george michael, it's been awhile!

Hasn't Thriller sold over 100 million copies.? No one has even come close to that.

alphastreet said:

that's great. what are you listenting to???

dreamfactory313 said:

noone knows but I sooo doubt this figure. 100 Mio? That's rubbish.

graecophilos said:

I was listening to I Want Your Sex, Freedom 90' and Too Funky. I was singing Wham's Freedom also.

alphastreet said:

That's similar to what I was listening to from George and more.

Timmy84 said:

when I was little, I was listening to Wham and Faith though I didn't realize until the 90's that George Michael IS Wham lolll

alphastreet said:

I kinda noticed in 1990, lol. I listened to "Careless Whisper", the original "Freedom", "I'm Your Man" and "Wake Me Up" and I knew it was George Michael but it sounded different from "Faith", then I looked at MTV and they played old videos and that's when I knew of Wham! And I was like "oh I see why he left!" But I loved Wham!'s music though. :p I also knew George had done the duet with Aretha. It was a huge song back then so I couldn't miss it. I don't remember seeing the actual video because I was two and a half but I do remember that my dad taped Aretha videos and the GM duet happened to be one of probably two or three Aretha videos dad taped.

yeah I was a Wham fan for years and loving Faith from hearing it endlessly but didn't put the two together till later hehe

alphastreet said:

But you know the strangest thing when I first knew of MJ I heard of the J5 the same time since Motown music was and is always played and I could actually differentiate. With George, it was the videos. Since he emerged during the video era.

that is interesting for sure. I think around the black or white premiere I heard of jackson 5 and the cartoons, but didn't realize he was in it and thought it was his brothers though I knew he had a family in the business since michael and jermaine were the first 2 jacksons I knew of

I discovered ABC in like 1993 and put it on tape and would constantly play it but didn't realize it was mj until I saw the jacksons american dream movie a few years later and was crazy about him already!

Timmy84 said:

ThT's what I wanted to add as well: The Aretha song was #1 and though it wasn't on Faith it was basically a #1 during hat era. So GM had felt 6 #1s.
Anyway, the only thing that maters is how many people a song affects and if it's gonna stand the test of time.

alphastreet said:

Even stranger, I was five when I knew Michael was in the Jackson 5. I saw it first on "Moonwalker" but it didn't really HIT me until "The Making of Thriller" and John Landis was talking about Michael approaching him and they cut to the Ed Sullivan performance. I think I saw "The Legend Continues" at three or four (I think it was 1988) and saw other footage. It made sense by five. "Ah he's been around for a LONG time, huh!?"

graecophilos said:

Like "Careless Whisper", "One More Try", "I Knew You Were Waiting..." and stuff like that. "Careless Whisper" will have me be a fan of GM for life tho.

I'm not a george fan though I think he's very talented, but I will always like him from afar cause careless whisper is one of my first memories ever and timeless. And I have the Faith album too which I like.

Timmy84 said:

The song that will have me be a fan of GM (and made me a fan) is Fastlove... Man, I loved this in 1996 but i didn't understand a word (couldn't speak English back then) and I didn't know who it was...
And then, 8 years later I got the Older CD and suddenly there was this great song that reminded me of the summer of 96....
That beautiful, gentle voice, the smooth sax...

Would have been too cool if the duet with Stevie Wonder would have been possible!

Timmy84, have you watched the Rock in Rio and the C2C clips on youtube? At the moment I love this George the most. His voice was at its peak during the 1991-1993 period. He looked different with that cropped hair but he was thin and stuff...

graecophilos said:

If MJ was a freak, why was he the #1 superstar in the world in 1988? Why his tour attracted 4.5 million people? Why his songs and videos were constantly played on heavy rotation in every formats?

Otherwise, MJ's contribution to culture and music is indeed on par with the Beatles, but it's impossible to know who've been more influential? The Beatles indeed sold more records but today, MJ's influence is more visible on culture. Plus, MJ reached every people of different greed, colors and race, not the Beatles.
At last, if everybody was selling more records in the 80's, why MJ wasn't outsold by the Police, Culture Club or Duran Duran?
MJ revolutionised culture by turning the industry upside down and changing the rules. He was a black man who didn't have airplay on MTV who suddenly became the most talked about and visible star on the planet.
/

speeddemon said:

he was considered freak by the general audience. He still had and has a big following. The general consence still was: He's wack.
The Beatles have had and still have more influence. They influenced people since the 60s. It's not visible? Well, the Beatles were pre-MTV, so they did not have the influence MJ had in terms of performing. But MJ never had at any point the influence the Beatles had on the 60s generation.

Still, you gotta consider the circumstances Jackson was in in the 1980s. You only read what you wanted to read, right? I said he was better than others, his music is timeless and stuff that's why he deserved his huge success. Still in the 1980s every one-hit-wonder could earn millions with just one hit song since albums and singles sold like bread. MJ reached more people because of MTV. Without this medium he would not have been as big as he became. Period.

And wtf he didn't have airplay on MTV? Which current songs did he have from 1981 til the end of 1982? What was MTV supposed to play??

But anyway, if it makes you happy that MJ had more influence than anyone else, be happy. personally I'm not listening to only one artist.

Who are you to know what was going on on the minds of the general public in 1988?
Yes, the media portrayed MJ as a loon and weird person. Still, people flucked on stores and box offices to buy everything related to him. Radios and video networks played him to death. Magazines graced their covers of MJ's photos.
There's a gap between public perceptions and actions and media's intentions.



I never said MJ was more influential than the Beatles, but I didn't see anythin that could make me think the Beatles are more influential than MJ. They predated MJ, so what? Does that make Louis Armstrong more influential than the Beatles?
Which criteria are u using to say their influence on the 60's is greater than MJ's influence on the 80's?




Are u stupid? MTV didn't play black videos up until MJ.

speeddemon said:

Excuse me? That's what you said:

He was a black man who didn't have airplay on MTV who suddenly became the most talked about and visible star on the planet.

Probably you don't know much about the Beatles so you don't realize their influence. Musically they were more groundbreaking and innovative than Mr. Jackson. They influenced a lot more musicians than MJ did or will. MJ relates more on images and performances then on music. I'm a big fan by myself and don't see much innovation in his music?

Oh, btw. The people that bought his records were certainly not the ones who gossiped about him. And talking about fucking record sales: More people went to buy George Michael's Faith than BAD. George Michael even sold more singles. He had a bigger following. Again, we're talking about the USA in 1988. One can't deny that.

And I don't wish to talk with Mj loonatics anymore. It's boring to discuss with freaks. As said before, if in your world MJ is the biggest star of all time, go with it. It just bores me to death that his fans are spoiled by MJ's stupid record breaking attitude. I mean,m how fucking crazy is it to list all your awards and sales in your Cd booklet.

Yes mj was the biggest seller ever and outsold george worldwide though definitely not in the states. But it's silly to compare him to u2, sting, culture club etc. and say he's bigger and better just cause of sales. I'm going to play devil's advocate, but Britney outsold so many artists too in the last 10 years and she really sucks in comparison and had mj-like fame as well, though she does not match him in talent at all. Numbers are not relevant anymore.

And I'm not going to lie, though I liked mj as a kid, I preferred so many artists over him like Madonna, Prince, Sade, Phil Collins, Culture Club, etc. and at a young age too. Until I was a preteen, mj was just an entertainer to me who did fun videos, but then I realized there is more to him than that when I actually started buying the albums and discovered more of his music.


[Edited 12/24/08 6:22am]
[Edited 12/24/08 6:23am]

Are u aware that, one upon a time, a channel named MTV, the first 24 hour channel dedicated to music, didn't play any music videos by black artists up until MJ in 1983. That was an argument I used against your argument that MJ had all the media tools in his hand, so he could only succeed. That's stupid! That was pretty much the opposite. He wasn't on a dominant position. Radios stopped favorising R&B on their playlists, MTV played only so called Rock & Roll and music magazines like Rolling Stone barely showed black faces on their covers.
But MJ single handedly changed everything. By becoming the greatest celebrity in the world, he convinced the medias to change their attitudes towards black stars. hence, people like Prince were the first to benefit of that revolution.




I probably know more about the Beatles than you, an again you didn't bring any arguments that prove they're more influential than MJ. Yes, they were musically innovative so was MJ, but he also influenced video, stage performance and dance among others.
The Beatles influenced a lot of musicians? Cool, MJ influenced musicians, dancers, rappers, R&B artists, Rock artists,...
Just come with better arguments.



There still were more people buying his records than for anybody else. If he was seen as a loony, wouldn't they been alienated to buy anything related by him? I think they made a distinction between the talented guy and the image portrayed by the media.



You're right, so what?

graecophilos said:

[/quote]

I'm looking at several articles from the 1985-1989 period and it seems mixed. Some are saying Bad was a mixed album but by the time the tour came around, it was completely different.

You also have to remember BEFORE Thriller, Off The Wall was a huge success as was the Triumph album and tour. MTV's exposure helped. But what about the success in the UK, who I believe didn't have MTV in 1983?

If anything, he was seen as "bizarre" and a complete mystery

speeddemon said:

thank you, so the answer in your original posting should have been

YES.

Btw, I'm sure most people would agree with me the Beatles had much bigger influence on MUSIC (not on fucking videos) than MJ. To this day I don't see much innovation in his music. His songs are well crafted, but he and Quincy didn't invent a new sound. Quincy is such a fabolous yet "conservative" producer. Prince was much more innovative in music than Mj ever was. This is another thing MJ implied to his fans: "I am innovative and the best has yet to come".

Guess, what? He said that right before the Invincible release as well.

bboy87 said:

biboy87, you're scans are always welcomed. Did you collect some about George as well???

graecophilos said:

No unfortunately

You know how hard it is to get scans from GeorgeMichaelForums.com


I got these from The Michael Jackson Archives. 2 of my friends (the authors who released "For The Record") compiled the whole site
[Edited 12/24/08 16:46pm]

IMO- Bad is a bad album, with the exception of 2 songs.