Wait...

Isn't there a difference between a songwriter and a composer?

A songwriter writes lyrics and a composer writes music, right?

Ain't Michael a songwriter?

Timmy84 said:

nah he's both because he composes as well...
Back when he was workin with quincy, he was strictly songwriter...
But even starting with bad he started composing shit...
If you analyze his work... he has a certain type of style...
He composes his songs a certain way... poorly I might add...
But he still composes it...
Ever notice that Off The Wall and Thriller sound different, while Bad , Dangerous, History all have the same sound/style (shitty albeit)
It's because he started doing most of it
I can tell when he writes a song, he layers them a certain way...

EmbattledWarrior said:

You are being pretentious and I don't really see why. As I said, I play keys and used to wonder how it's possible myself too.

Mariah, Madonna are 2 famous examples.

I was just watching Unsung about DeBarge and Bunny Debarge said she doesn't play but comes up with bass lines, etc.

MJ as far as we know. He wrote Billie Jean and Beat It himself and as far as we know he doesn't play. He does vocalize the parts which he's shown and others like Quincy have talked about.

People in bands I've played in are singers who have written songs and they can't play anything.

Given your experience, I'm sure you're well aware that as far as US Copyright law is concerned, a song is only copyrighted in terms of the MELODY and LYRICS.

Crazy as it sounds, you can't copyright a chord progression. Makes no sense to me.... but that's the way it goes.

BTW Dolly Parton has said she writes songs by singing them into a tape recorder and others then turn it into a full song and arrange it. She does play guitar as far as I know though.

Donna Summer has written songs (Dim All The Lights is probably her best) and I don't believe she plays an instrument.

Timmy84 said:

Well to get technical....

a Lyricist writes lyrics. A composer writes music.

A songwriter is a broader definition that would include both lyricists and composers as well as people who do both.

GaryMF said:

Madonna, and Mariah Carey...
C'mon seriously name 1...
one pantomimes playing guitar on stage (so she claims to play an instrument)
Mariah hasn't produced a single track by herself...
I'm a big mariah fan, she only Ocaisionally contributes lyrics, and executive produces, which probably means she has say on the tracklisting
She hasn't composed anything though by herself
Neither has Madonna...
Whereas Michael Jackson has composed MANY songs by himself...
Dude believe me I work In recording studios...
You cannot compose/produce any song (by yourself)
without knowing a thing or two about the keys...
Hell Bjork even knows her way around one, and she's barely a composer... Just a programming loop artist...
God love rher tho, shes amazing

I know I'm an asshole right know, that because I'm positively 100% sure on this one bro...
Trust me...
I'm not saying he's mozart, but dude knows his way around the keys

Timmy84 said:

There is a difference ,and Yeah , MJ is both, songwriter and composer

A Songwriter is someone who write the lyrics of a song while composer is someone who writes , creates the melody of a song, Mj in my opinion is a genuis composer, he creates meldoies from another planet ,and thats the most important thing to him,he is a huge fan of melody, A great melody can take a song with silly lyrics to a new level ...but also Mj is a capable songwriter ,"stranger in moscow" is the prime example..... .

THANKS FOR THIS PEARL OF WISDOM.

EmbattledWarrior said:

EmbattledWarrior said:

Not true at all. He composed the music to the songs he wrote back then too. Listen to 'The Girl Is Mine" original demo for an idea of how he did it.

When Michael is making a demo with his voice he does perform the chords. He literally sings each note of the chord separately. I've read that from a couple of people he's worked with.

EmbattledWarrior said:

Well you just prove dmy point. Madona can't realy play guitar yet she supposedly writes songs.....sometimes by herself. As hard as I find it to believe, she wrote Lucky Star herself! and that was before she "learned" to play guitar.




I already said Mariah always co-writes with a pianist. I used to think she only wrote lyrics but after hearing/seeing more interviews with her, and her process, I have learned she does much more. She writes the melodies and works on the chord progressions with her co-writer even though she herself is not pushing the keys on the piano. This is true more on her first few albums before she started so much sampling and working with 5 co-writers for one track (e.g. on Emancipation).



You just proved my point. MJ has written songs himself.

You are ASSUMING that means he can play the piano. But there is no actual evidence to that fact. It's possible you are correct, but your logic is:

1. he writes songs himself. thus 2. he can play keys.

That is not valid logic.

I play in bands and have been in studios too. Big shit.

I used to think like you did because I only play keys really and could't understand how someone could write a song NOT on a piano (or guitar).

But by your logic, anyone who plays a non-chordal instrument only (e.g. woodwinds, brass, hell even drums) would never be able to write a song.

Not to mention singers who don't play.




Hey you said it...not me! LIke I said, I used to think the same way but have opened my eyes so to speak as I got more involved in music.

What is obnoxious is how you are "100% sure" but only based on your thoughts and assumptions. You are confident with no proff other than your own opinions (e.g. michael can play piano, Mariah only writes lyrics, etc.)

Now if you said you worked in the studio with either of them and had evidence, etc. that would be different.

And for the record, as I said before, I would be the first one cheering either MJ or Mariah on and encourage them to sit at a keyboard, Rhodes, Steinway, whatever, and just play a few damn chords while they sing.

But until we get some evidence, there is no reason to believe MJ can play. And in Mariah's case, to be fair, we're going by her word (i.e. that she can play albeit "bleakly" to quote her).

seeingvoices12 said:

Where do some of y'all get your information from?

As I stated a few posts above, a songwriter is a broader term that encompasses BOTH composers (who write music) and lyricists (who write words).

So I'm not a hypocrite, I went and double checked my own information and lo and behold:

http://www.merriam-webste...songwriter

song·writ·er
Pronunciation:
\ˈsȯŋ-ˌrī-tər\
Function:
noun
Date:
1821
: a person who composes words or music or both especially for popular songs
— song·writ·ing \-ˌrī-tiŋ\ noun

GaryMF said:

you overanazlying and generalizing things...and I didn't say you are hypocrite

If thats your theory then in albums creidts they must write for example -written by michael jackson NOT written and composed by michael jackson , writing a song is a thing and composing it is another thing , songwriter is MAINLY a person who creates the lyrics , writting lyrics of a song is a thing and a composition of a song is another thing .....there are many composers who don't write lyrics, and they call them composers Not songwriters ,and there are many songwriters who don't compose and they call them songwriters, so if you call someone a songwriter it doean't mean he is also a composer, and that defintion you got from your dicitionary doesn't prove anything.

A composer: One who makes music or creates the melody of the lyrics of the song.
[Edited 12/24/08 10:52am]
[Edited 12/24/08 10:59am]

GaryMF said:

Yeah But I know because of very different reasons...
One because keyboard skills is a minimal requirement and standard to compose music, Hell even Miles Davis, knew his way around a set of a piano, though he hadn't publically performed or recorded it. It's just a standard requirement for composers.
YOU should know because your a pianist
Keyboard is the only instrument where you can compose bass treble and harmonies...
(I mean you could probably do it on guitar, but just not as efficient as on piano)
Songs composed on guitars, sound completely different than those composed on the piano. Mikes songs all sound like keyboard arrangement shit, because he uses alot of block chords, songs lack inversions (and when there are inversions its usually because theres a set bassline that clashes with the harmony, Money's a good example of that)
I assume that he knows how to read music at the most basic level (like most unclassically trained singers) probably knows the Every good boy knows fudge shit, and probably composes most of his stuff in a Leadsheet notatiion way, or from what I hear back from the now defunct Hit Factory, He uses the sequencer logic pro, which you don't really need sheet music for...
You talk to all the people hje's worked with, tehy all sayy the same, that he knows his wayy around a studio...
C'mon it's obvious that MJ learned most of his keyboard programming skills from Quincy Jones and Bruce Swedian, Quincy's main engineer.
Quincy was partial for synth based leads and pads, back in the the 70's and 80's and MJ basically copied that style, and made it his own...


But this I stress...
What you hear on the recordings,is very rarely MJ
He's not much of a programmer...
Basically what happens is MJ develops a very basic arrangement , coomprised of bass, chord melody, gives it to a keyvboardist, etc...
and then proceeds from there...
simply because his skills are just not that good...
he knows very basic keyboard stuff
nothing amazing, I would even say he might have trouble playing frere Jacque
But he does know his wa¥ around the keys...

Jesus Christ. I haven't read every post but Michael has said many times in depositions and other times that he composes his music and lyrics on tape with his mouth- or he beatboxes. That's simply the way he composes. I don't see a damn thing wrong with that, because as we all know here, he has written many great songs all on his own.

He says he does not READ music. There is a pic of him playing the piano. LaToya says he can play the piano IF he needs to, but composes with his mouth most of the time.

He's credited with "playing" instruments on his albums (is that even legal if he doesn't play the instruments on the albums?). But I couldn't really give a shit. I don't understand why people need proof in the form of videos that he plays, when the songs he has composed himself, speak for themselves, even if he doesn't play a physical instrument (other than his voice).

All these threads about Michael make me realize one thing: the world is desperate to see Michael back.

Ronnuz said:

No it proves another thing: "People must be really, really bored and shit."

What about the I´ll be there pepsi tv-spot??

Whas it all fake??


Michael Jackson - I'll Be There (Pepsi 1992 - Ver. Original)

http://www.youtube.com/wa...o-6wIC5Q7g

Are there other Michael piano video on the tube??

Timmy84 said:

co-sign

Oh please, to settle this for once and for all:

Put MJ on a piano and then put Prince on a piano on the same stage.....and lets see who will come off as the musically talented PIANIST....we all know who will win that battle.

As I said earlier..the "MJ plays an instrument" threads never die. Check the one from Summer 2008 by thebanishedone.

And missfee I agree with you 100%.

r u sure i mede a thread about jackson this summer?

lol..OK maybe it was in the Spring of 2008.

Does he or does he not play an instrument now?

OzlemUcucu said:

EmbattledWarrior said:

Dude, i understand everything you say above, but the bottom line it's all your THEORY. YOu have not proof of anything!

and people can compose without playing keyboards