TRON said:

And on most of the world, claiming no victory or something. It is a firmer album. I like that Velvet Rope is going into old Madonna territory, yet I think it's whimpish for not speaking out; it's all rather under the surface.

Yet Ray Of Light is Madonna's coming of age album, which she quickly buried to go and revive disco.

Ray of Light. Although both albums were the last I purchased from each of them. I was horribly disappointed in 'Music' after 'Ray Of Light' because I thought Madonna had just gone somewhere else artistically. And I was so looking forward to going there with her.

So much for that....

violator said:

Yeah. From genius straight back to Ali G.



Fucking pity. But maybe that was all the personal growth she had in her.

HamsterHuey said:

I don't think she quickly buried it. Music and especially American Life had some heavy shit.

And I don't think TVR is wimpish either. It's just really broad in its messages - issues of sexuality, interpersonal relationships, abandonment, mental health, AIDS, domestic abuse, accepting oneself, belonging. She covered a lot of ground. And it maybe got overlooked because of the hairstyles and songs like "Go Deep". The severity of what she was going through at the time didn't seem to get much attention.

Ray of Light is just much more focused and cohesive in its sound and message, spiritual self-actualization. There was no mistaking what she was going for.

HamsterHuey said:

Maybe you wrote her following work off too soon.

Make a disc of:

Gone
I Deserve It
Nobody's Perfect
Paradise (Not For Me)
Time Stood Still
Love Profusion
Nothing Fails
Intervention
X-Static Process
Easy Ride

and get back to me. She was far from purging after Ray of Light. It's just with the past 2 albums that she's gone a bit soft to me.

Another Janet vs Madonna thread. Anyway, I can't choose between two introspective cd's by both artist that touched me during a turmulous period in my life. Both Janet and Madonna became sort of a soundtrack for me during that time. (honorable mention-Mary cd)

TRON said:

Oh no, I do not underestimate her later work; I adore stuff like I Deserve It or, my fave, What It Feels Like For A Girl.
But it's buried in too many singy singy singy/wingy wingy wingy/ rhumba rhumba rhumba/ samba samba samba's
And yet, the intro to that same song is so fucking hawt, it makes me cry she fucked that one up.

HamsterHuey said:

Ah. Gotcha. I know what you mean.

TRON said:

Why is it that I have no recollection of ANY of this and everyone else does? I swear I feel like I'm on Candid Camera

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

You already answered your own question. It's PJ. She kinda trumps everything when she's in control.

TRON said:

That has to be it. Cuz I'm a lyrics freak and I had no idea that Janet Jackson was on the brink of suicide

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I mean, look at the cover. She went from strong and proud and stark on Rhythm Nation to bold and naked on janet. to hanging her head on TVR.

TRON said:

Wow! I had never made any connection from album to album but when you make that point, it's pretty stark
[Edited 12/9/08 18:24pm]

HamsterHuey said:

This tone mirrors depression, the overarching inspiration for and theme of the record.

ROL and TVR don't cover the same subject matter, anyway. They are simply each artist's most introspective record overall, but they will likely appeal to people at different points in their lives. For many gay fans, TVR was their coming out album, therapy for their conflicted sexuality. I haven't heard a Madonna fan make that claim about ROL.

I actually think Erotica and The Velvet Rope have more in common.
[Edited 12/9/08 18:20pm]

The Velvet Rope.

This was I think the first album I ever bought for myself. Got it at at Sam Goody for $17.99 and it hold the record for the most money I've ever spent on a single cd

Worth. Every. Penny.

Ray if Light is delightful though!

Unfortunately, for Janet, the best she could do to relate the depression she was going through at the time was to cite an incident in her youth with a teacher yelled at her or something.

Which is fine. Maybe she didn't want to talk about it. She shouldn't have to. But she shouldn't have used it as a selling point for the album.

errant said:

That wasn't the only thing she talked about. She also talked about how it hurt her when her father told her not to call him dad anymore and to call him Joseph as well as the teacher calling her stupid incident, also being told her butt was too big for ballet. However, the turmoil she was going through really had to do with an accumulation of things over the years, including her marriage, which was falling apart. Sometimes it's just emotional shit you don't want to talk about. As she said "There's nothing more depressing than having everything and still feeling sad"

I think when you write a dark album and you're being asked what was the catalyst for it, you have to say something. I never saw it as a selling point for the album, just her sharing something without sharing too much
[Edited 12/9/08 23:26pm]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Here I am in your face
Tellin truths and not your old lies
Seems to me that you care
And I know that you're runnin out of time

See ya can't get away
I'll be here forever and again
Whisperin in your ear
Do believe cause you know you cannot win

Spent most your life pretending not to be
The one you are but who you choose to see
Learned to survive in
your fictitious world
Does what they think of you
determine your worth?

If special's what you feel
when you're with them
Taken away you feel 'less than' again
That's right


You gotta mean what you say
You gotta say what you mean
Tryin to please everyone
Sacrifice your own needs
Check in the mirror my friend
No lies will be told then
Pointin the finger again
You can't blame nobody but you

There's a feeling inside
No you cannot change it right away
Gotta make a try
And with time it'll start to go away

I'll be here when you need
That one to sit and cry to
Cause I'm the you you forgot
The only one you know you cannot lie to

Bitter you'll be if you
don't change your ways
When you hate you you hate
everyone that day

Unleash this scared child
that you've grown into
You cannot run for you can't hide from you
Can't hide from you
That's right

You gotta mean what you say
You gotta say what you mean
Tryin to please everyone
Sacrifice your own needs
Check in the mirror my friend
No lies will be told then
Pointin the finger again
You can't blame nobody but you

VoicesCarry said:

I'm sure it's an age gap, as we all did that when Madonna released Vogue. And we're not conflicted, we're out and we're proud! I always got this sense of shame radiating from Janet and even though I love her for 'coming out', it's just not where I was at; I've never been ashamed. Bashful, sure. But never ashamed.

I really, really dug Janet. the album. This Time's intro with Kathleen Battle, if I remember correctly, was exquisite. As were That's The Way Love Goes and If. To me, Janet is much more of a singles artist than an album artist, exept maybe with Rhythm Nation. After that, too many slow R&B and albums that just went on and on.

On the other hand, I am glad Janet ain't Madonna, but I would love to see her rip away from that R&B mould she's in cuz she's got great cross-over possibilities; still has; I love her voice. If she's going to stay in the mould she's in, I rather have her do a short album with killer songs. Common Janet!

LiquidGold said:

My coming out song.

VoicesCarry said:

Yes, these two are more similar. Erotica was my teenage gay album.

This is honestly tough since I'm a fan of both (putting about ten tracks each of both on my MP3 player although I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to burn the tracks from my Japanese DJ disc...it worked before!).

Let's look at both seperately:

"The Velvet Rope" is a packed to the rim masterpiece of Janet's most personal songs set to many different types of music. Not a ton of safe poppy R&B singles, but there was a far amount. She also had some great carefree dance tunes like "Go Deep" as well as some dance tunes with a message like "Together Again" and "Free Xone". All the songs fit well together and there are no real weak points. It's funky, fun, senusal, personal, cool....It's "The Velvet Rope".

"Ray Of Light" has some of Madonna's most epic tunes like "Frozen", "Ray of Light" and great non-singles like "Skin" and "Swim". The songs are often abstract in message but worth digging through for their meaning. It also has an excellent personal song, "Subsistute For Love" Not everything works. "Nothign Really Matters" but just sort of there (no wonder it's her lowest charing single) and "Ashanti Shanti" or whatever on the album when something as chilling as "Has To Be" doesn't make the cut? It's an album full of Madonna's best written pop tracks with an excellent sound (that she drove into the ground on subsequent albums and soundtrack songs) and great singing...It also has some tracks that are too idiosynstratic and distracting ("Mer Girl" maybe would have been interesting for a b-side or should have saved the lyrics and been made into a more pop sounding track).

It's hard to say cause while I like "The Velvet Rope" more as a full album, I'm putting 10 or Janet tracks onto my MP3 player and I didn't totally consider TVR. However, I would at the very least include the full verision of "Frozen" on there. So while I think TVR is a better full album, ROL has better songs....does that make sense?

VoicesCarry said:

Not Free Xone?

LiquidGold said:

You was more personal for me. Free Xone is about sexuality in general.

Today's apples and oranges thread brought to you by...

Seriously, if we're doing a comparison, then I say Ray Of Light is the better album, as far as the idea it presents. I like Velvet Rope a lot too, though.

Today's apples and oranges thread brought to you by...

Seriously, if we're doing a comparison, then I say Ray Of Light is the better album, as far as the idea it presents. I like Velvet Rope a lot too, though.

I remember buying 'Ray Of Light' the day it was released and I just stayed home,in the dark,and listened to it non-stop.Yes,I turned off all the lights I was totally mesmerized by it! It was truly unlike anything Madonna had ever done before.

TRON said:

Problem with those are that they have no chorus; no memorable melody to go for her more personal songs...

paisleypark4 said:

You just shut up, lay down and just be pretty for me.

:snap: