vainandy said:

With Donna I was mainly speaking in terms of appealing largely to the white (pop) audience. She was a pop artist herself and she had no shame in it. She could care less to cater to the blacks. Atleast Whitney sat her ass at Soul Train Awards show, amongst other black award events. Even Diana will show up to the BET Awards, but I have yet to see Donna even caring to show up to events like that.

Anita Baker and Michael dominated that show that year when Whitney got boo'd.

Speaking of Narada Michael Walden, if you notice, before the success of "Thriller", he was producing Stacy Lattisaw. He seemed to be concerned with having a moderately successful R&B hit and if the pop audience liked it, that was fine, but he didn't lose any sleep over them not liking it.

Just picture Shitney trying to do funky jams like Stacy's "Dynamite" or "Feel My Love Tonight". She's never done anything like that and I don't think she's capable of doing something like that because she has no rhythm.

vainandy said:

Donna was crossover in a good way anyway, she didn't whitebread her shit.

That's mainly why Whitney got booed. I was only five when the incident with Whitney occurred but if I could remember, the boos were too much that Whitney tried to say something and then said "thank you", she looked on the verge of tears and then she either ran or walked off stage. It was embarrassing for her.

Marrk said:

Yeah the brothers were like "the fuck?! "

shesoffthewall said:

But that's because Donna was and is hard to categorize. Also she had that disco stigma, lol. Plus black folks showed her respect. Diana, Dionne and Donna were more respected by black folks because their vocal styles allowed them success in other formats. The reasons why Whitney didn't get the same treatment because she sung like her mother and Dee Dee Warwick but she had an image that was more whitebread than Donna, who was really a rock chick.

shesoffthewall said:

Ain't that odd? And unfortunately for Whitney, she struggled between wanting to be a "crossover artist" and then trying to figure out what her supposed main audience was into. She never knew what she wanted in her career.

I would say Michael is in that same struggle since he's ages away from the soul music wunderkind that turned Motown and some Philadelphia International joints into gold and the boy wonder that created "Off the Wall".

Take it back to Michael and a supposed "Thriller world tour", I agree that he may not have had taken part in it because he would've been criticized for not doing another tour with his brothers. But what people don't realize is that the Jacksons (as Jackie, Tito, Marlon, Michael and Randy) disbanded in 1981. Every other Jackson family project was a reunion of sorts. "Victory" was a Jacksons reunion album, lol.

Timmy84 said:

I honestly think that was the moment Michael said "Fuck ya'll, I'm gonna do my own thing from now on"

Hell, remember how he didn't tell his brothers he was leaving the group UNTIL during the last Los Angeles show

Timmy84 said:

Not really, they were constantly working on new material from the end of 1980 to 1983. Michael and Marlon did some songs including "Doing Dirty" during the time Michael was working on Thriller. They were always going to release another album in 1984, that was the plan. Jermaine just didn't become part of the plan until months after Motown 25

Michael had alot on his plate in 1984. He was doing Victory, he was in the planning stages of Bad, he was doing that shelved Broadway play, doing that "Scared Of The Moon" project and he was in talks to buy ATV

Timmy84 said:

In black cirlces Whitney has won a lot of respect even more so than Janet, Donna and Diana. People be straight hatin on Diana and Janet but will praise Whitney in a heartbeat.

shesoffthewall said:

People hate Diana for "breaking up" the original Supremes. Janet is hated because she's a Jackson ( ) and Whitney is adored in black circles where initially it was more the opposite.

Timmy84 said:

Janet is hated because of the Superbowl.

bboy87 said:

Oh yeah so I heard. Marlon shortly thereafter found a good excuse to leave the group too. He had to follow Michael his whole time with the Jacksons. Once MJ left, Marlon left.

Timmy84 said:

You know that's why he made the song "Don't Go" right?

It really did. I find it so weird how mj fans think Victory is so original! To me most of the tracks with the exception of State of Shock and Torture sounded like watered down versions of music that was popular at the time. Even Torture reminded me of songs like Sweet Dreams Are Made of This, Small Town Boy. And Janet did One More Chance justice.

I think pop music killed a lot of r&b/pop divas of the late 70's and early 80's. Good examples are Patrice, Donna Summer, Atlantic Star, Teena Marie, even Latoya Jackson would have been alright if she stuck to disco.
[Edited 10/23/08 9:59am]

alphastreet said:

Which MJ fans? That album sucked. And it was far from original- I have NO idea how it's their biggest selling.


I seriously don't think launching a solo tour would have made a difference. The media treated the Victory tour like it was the Thriller tour anyway. They didn't do any songs from Victory anyways- and they did songs from Thriller and Off The Wall anyways. Plus, it was the biggest and most successful tour of its time.

marnifrances said:

It's the biggest selling because of all of the hype behind it at the time. They did perform "Tell Me I'm Not Dreaming" from Victory. That song is good I don't care what nobody says.

shesoffthewall said:

Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin isn't on Victory. It's on Jermaine's 1984 album

SoulAlive said:

I wudda included some Ben and I Wanna Be WHere You Are in there for the old fans

vainandy said:

I agree, the jacksons messed up. They could have put out the best Jacksons album ever in 84, but messed up with their egos. Most of the albums was done individually instead of a collective unit (a la Triumph and Destiny.) With Jermaine in the mix, the should have been great, a double LP but Marlon and Tito just had too have solo spots.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Yeah,the 'Victory' album is a very weak album.The brothers submitted some crap songs.Even Michael's two contributions ("State Of Shock" and "Be Not Always") are nothing to write home about."State Of Shock" is a funny song to me.It's supposed to be a 'Jacksons' song,but Michael chose an outsider (Mick Jagger) to sing it with him...lol...the other brothers can barely be heard on the song.That shows you how disinterested Michael was in working with his brothers.He didn't even appear in the two videos for this project ("Torture" and "Body").He was just going through the motions.I agree,this album could have been great.Maybe they have brought Quincy Jones on board to produce it?

SoulAlive said:

"State of Shock" and "Be Not Always" were "Thriller" outtakes, I think.

"State of Shock" and "Be Not Always" were "Thriller" outtakes, I think.

Timmy84 said:

I didn't know about "Be not always", but for "State of Shock" I'm pretty sure.

he should have released the version with Freddie Mercury though, I never really liked Mick Jagger or the Stoens for that matter, so that pretty much ruins the song for me

Actually,LaToya's first attempt, the song "If You Feel The Funk" was pretty decent. She performed it on "Soul Train" and it actually got a little bit of radio airplay in my area. It just didn't get enough airplay to become a hit.I don't remember her doing anything else until years later with "Heart Don't Lie" which was absolutely awful. As for her becoming a joke, I don't remember people actually laughing at her (other than that horrible video) until the 1990s when she was married and saying her family was trying to kidnap her.

alphastreet said:

I thought it was cute too when I first saw it. But over the years, to me, it's lost its value. The Jacksons in the video looked like they had no identity. It was like they were destined to be "Michael's brothers" and nothing more than that.

"You Give Good Love" sounds more like adult contemporary to me and should have been played on adult contemporary stations only. The fact that the record label would even consider promoting an artist that has no rhythm to an R&B station (the "R" in R&B is short for "rhythm") is ridiculous.

bboy87 said:

shit My Victory album has collected so much dust I've forgotten what's on it.
[Edited 10/23/08 22:14pm]

SoulAlive said:

"State of Shock" and "Be Not Always" were "Thriller" outtakes, I think.