MJ is the best all-around performer ever.

He's enthralling.

midnightmover said:

I've always heard very positive reviews about Springsteen concerts. I love the idea of just walking out and playing.

Maybe it's age but over the years, I just love someone with a microphone and a good band, peferably a great voice and/or skills on an instrument.

when i think of great live vocals i can think of one other name. minnie ripperton!!!!

[quote]

shorttrini said:

See what happens when people try to take my comment and make it seem like something else?

Timmy84 said:[quote]
That happens ALL THE TIME on the internet.

midnightmover said:

Yeah. I wasn't even trying to argue and shit.

graecophilos said:

Although I totally disagree with your Madonna comment, you're actually making an important point. If you judge someone by just what they themselves do on stage (singing, moving, etc.) then Mike is clearly the best of all time. But if you're talking about the overall live experience then he had some major shortcomings. He never seemed to grasp the importance of keeping your show fresh and surprising people. He put all his attention on special effects, while the arrangements, costumes, choreography, and personnel all stayed the same. Also I thought the sound was pretty poor on both the Dangerous and Bad Tours. Prince's live shows sounded great. Maybe because he personally oversaw the band, whereas Mike never even spoke to his musicians.

I also hated the dancers he had on stage. They were fucking AWFUL, particularly when they pretended to sing. He generally kept the stage too bare as well. He'd have been better off bringing the musicians forward, rather than having them shunted to the back like that.

midnightmover said:

The outfits they wore on the Bad Tour were cringworthy

michael jackson is one of the worst live acts ever. as he isn't highly rated as a live performer, you couldn't really say he was the most over rated live performer, but compared to what some people say about him, it's getting close

part of the problem is his lack of talent compared to his fame and popularity. the one talent he actually has, or at least had, was his vocals. he could sing, and he was pretty good, but by no means outstanding. he couldn't hold a candle to the best of them, like aretha or sinatra, but for a pop singer, he wasn't bad. he's no musician either, so he can't, and doesn't, play any instruments in a live setting, instead he relies on choreographed dance movies to entertain and fill the void by his lack of music talent. he's not bad at dancing either, or at least he wasn't bad at dancing, he was pretty damn good at copying all the moves that jeff daniels taught him, such as the moonwalk, and the smooth criminal moves, and the shake your tailfeather routine from the blues brothers was excellent in the thriller video

he had some excellent producers and musicians playing on his albums, particularly on the wall and thriller, and with some great writers on board, it meant the albums couldn't have failed, regardless of who sang on them, so to add great videos to the tracks on thriller, no wonder the sales soared through the roof. unfortunately, the problem with putting together great albums with session musicians, guest stars, and songs you didn't write, and using other peoples choreography and talents and huge budgets to create music videos to sell your product is that it's very hard to recreate in a live setting. most other great artists who toured before him had the same people playing on stage that played on the records, who wrote the songs, and sold records purely on musical merit and radio play, the visuals were irrelevant. whilst the michael jackson tour band was made up of some great individual musicians, the sum total of the skills and experience was far less than what came across on stage. and this was because they weren't a real band who evolved and jammed and played with each other for years, creating the music they played live, they were paid to play. the were the touring equivilent of payola. michael jackson wasn't a band leader, he wasn't a musician, so he couldn't lead that band the appropriate way for the huge tours they played

the fact that michael jackson was so out of touch with normality and his fans probably has a lot to do with it too. as he was fired into the spotlight at an early age, he couldn't attend gigs like regular people, or hang out, listen and discuss records like regular kids, and becoming such a huge star at the time he would be surrounded by yes men on his payroll, so he couldn't even get proper critism from anyone as to how the music sounded live, and the end result was it sounded awful live. somehow, with such a great catalogue of tracks to play live, the band managed to remove ever ounce of what was good about the tracks when they played them live. with such great songs, it must have took real effort to destroy those songs in the way they did. they were played with no emotion, too fast, too hard, and with no feeling and certainly no soul. you couldn't hear any other band in the world play a michael jackson song with less feeling and soul than the michael jackson touring bands.

it wasn't just michael jackson either, this was a common issue in the 80s and 90s, the madonna tours were almost as bad. that's the problem with some of these megastars who didn't write and record and produce the hits they had, and that's were prince shone, he wrote, produced, recorded and taught the band the songs that were his, and he made sure when they were played live, they were played the way he wanted them to sound. they weren't played too fast to try and liven them up, they played them like they should have sounded

there aren't many live official michael jackson shows in circulation, certainly not officially, from what most people will recall is tv "performances" which are mostly choreographed and mimed works, and not real life performances. the motown 25th anniversary routine was pretty cool, but copying someone elses dance routine and singing (or was he miming?) is far from an experience you could call the greatest live performance ever. the moonwalk is such a simple move, but most people can't figure out how easy it is, so they think it's fantastic. just remember, it's jeff daniels from soultrain and shalamar who taught him this, and he also choreographed some of janet jacksons most notable videos. michaels performances are recreations of his work, along with singing or miming. if that is what you consider to be worthy of being named the greatest performer ever, then just wait till you see someone truly worthy of that title, cuz they are going to blow your socks off

it's just a shame that michael and madonna don't have proper touring bands like prince, as i'd love to see them both play their catalogues live with the same feeling as prince does. bands that are interested in playing the music instead of being paid, people who want to perform the songs in the best way possible, concerts based on music instead of show, no choreographys and special effects, just music and singing, it's a concert, not a fucking musical. if the audience need distractions from your vocal and musical performance, then something is lacking there. stick prince on a plain stage with no lights and a guitar or piano, and he would whup the ass of anyone else in the same shoes

unique said:

What a waste of effort.
Ignorant, deluded, jealous or racist. Pick one or a combination.

THERE'S SOME HOT BS..

Being spoken on this thread. And you won't be surprised to learn it's the usual culprit spewing it.

unique said:

wow, you really thought this through, huh?

There aren't that many concerts circulating? There are alot of concerts out there that are pretty easy to get from the Jackson 5 days to the Michael Jackson and Friends. The Smooth Criminal routine was made by Michael and Vincent Patterson with Jeffery Daniels on assistance.

And did you just say that the Shake Your Tailfeather was the same as the Thriller routine
They're similar but they're also vastly different.

Studio wise, I want you to listen to the demos of the Off The Wall, Thriller, and Bad sessions....go ahead, I'll wait

the problem with putting together great albums with session musicians, guest stars, and songs you didn't write, and using other peoples choreography and talents
Off The Wall, Thriller, and Bad ALL had a maximum of 3 guest spots. and he wrote 4 out of the 10 OTW songs, 4 of the 9 songs on Thriller, and 9 of the 11 songs on Bad.

As a dancer myself and knowing about the work that went into Michael's choreography, it's kinda mute to say that he used other people's choreography

because you know why?

When you're a dancer, you're probably gonna always use someone else's choreography Michael would work with a various team of dancers and together, they would come up with the routines. Look at the practice sessions of
Thriller, Bad, Smooth Criminal, Remember The Time, and others. It wasn't Michael sitting down while others did the work and then taught him the whole thing

And to say that the touring bands had no emotion and no soul is a real insult to those musicians, fam. Listen to the Triumph Tour, Victory, Bad, and even Dangerous tours. Those cats were talented

but hey, you have your opinion

and so you know, Jeffery didn't choreograph that many of Janet's videos. It was either Paula Abdul in the early days and Tina Landon later on
[Edited 9/19/08 13:23pm]

bboy87 said:

Are these available online somewhere? I haven't seen them, but they sound awesome.

Annika said:

just small parts, but those parts tell you a good story. Instead of Bad and Smooth Criminal, I should've said Ghosts and Captain EO which you can find on Youtube
The rehearsal of Thriller is included on the Making of Thriller documentary.

My list--


JB
Prince
Michael Jackson
Jimi Hendrix

bboy87 said:

i said there aren't many OFFICIAL live shows in circulation, and jd did some janet videos. do you really need to misquote as well as show lack of facts and understanding in what you are writing about? do you really know much about the work of michael jackson? it certainly doesn't sound like it

i have heard the demo's you mention, along with many others released and otherwise, and frankly they are shit, and you can't deny that if you've heard then. listen to the demo compared to the official released normal version, they couldn't release those demos as they were, whereas most of princes recordings are releases as is. if you hear the outtakes of most of the alternate versions of princes tracks they are usually 90% like the released version, only with minor differences of longer, the demos don't sound like and embryonic shit in a box to be rerecorded later with professional musicians. he literally goes in the studio, lays down the instruments one after the other himself, usually in one take, and that is what appears on the final record, without instrumentation being rerecoded, and a track is usually finished in a day. in fact whilst at paisley park he would complete on average two full tracks a day when not on tour

and it's laughable how people make so much out of his dancing, it's something he does because he can't play instruments, so what else can he do onstage. it's clear you don't know much about his choreography. the shake your tail feather sequences was specifically choosen for the thriller video, which was directed by john landis who directed the blues brothers, and jeff daniels did a lot more for michael jackson than he'll ever be credited for, but he was paid as a hired hand, and that work was many years ago and he's moved on greatly since then and doesn't need to "take credit" for the work. i've not seen jackson dance in a long time, but being 50 i don't blame him. thats the problem with relying on a lack of musical talent when you are a pop star. you can't hear the dancing on the records, and the music is the most important part

and the musicians, it's not thier fault the end result was souless, it's the music directors fault, and ultimately jacksons. they are paid to play, and from one of the richest stars in the world, so if he wants it to sound a particular way, that's what he gets. if thats shit, then so be it, they ain't gonna turn down a paycheck, and that's what the tours were about, as well as satisfying an ego, bringing in money. the music came at the bottom of the list on those tours

if you are a fan of michael jackson, if anyone here is a fan of michael jackson, you really can't honestly say that any of his post thriller solo tours were musically and artistically credible or satisfying. compared to the excellently produced quincy jones albums they are truly awful and an embarrassment to such a high profile artist. it's unfortunate that the effort went on the "show" and special effects instead of a great musical performance, because there was huge potential to put on a great show, but it was truly lost and wasted, and that is why there aren't any officially released killer essential michael jackson live dvd's

it's clear you obviously aren't particularly familiar with either prince's or michael jacksons work, or the origins of it, and your arguements are weak at best. all i can suggest is that you dig deep into the catalogue of quincy jones and the other artists credited on jacksons records, and review what you've said in a few months time when you are more knowledgable and experienced, and i think you'll want to take back every word you've said

how many times have you seen michael jackson and prince live in the flesh anyways? and have you ever been to paisley park and neverland, or are your views based on a few cds, some bootlegs and a load of youtube viewings? i remember distinctly how dissapointed i was when i bought bad on the day it was released, it didn't even live up to it's name. it should have been called shit instead. thank god prince released parade and then sign o the times and even the worst thing he's released was never as truly awful as dangerous or invincible. give me the night is evidence that jacksons hits were the result of quincys talent for production and picking the right writers and session musicians

2 cents...

-In terms of pure spectacle: MJ wins

-In terms of overall performance and artistry (singing, dancing, directing the band AND playin an instrument all at the same time) Prince wins hands down.

Much respect to both http://SoundGallery.wordpress.com
[Edited 9/19/08 16:11pm]

I'll co sign on this one !

purplecam said:

unique said:

Fam, I'm very familiar with both Michael AND Prince's work. Anybody who frequents this particular forum knows that for sure. I know about Jeffery Daniels contribution to Michael's dancing along with Robot Dane, Poppin Sam, Michael "Boogaloo Shrimp" Chambers and Vincent Patterson.

I said that the choreography to Shake Your Tailfeather was similar to the routine to Thriller, but they are quite different. If they lifted the routine from Shake Your Tailfeather, what was Michael Peters' contribution?

Yes, it's true, the tours post 1989 are as great, but that's the thing. Michael's tours are about theatrics. People who have worked on those tours since the Victory Tour can tell you that.

it's clear you obviously aren't particularly familiar with either prince's or michael jacksons work, or the origins of it,

Really, go back and look at my threads like my Thriller 25 thread or my recent one about Michael's unreleased work. I'm not some naive poster who has only listened to a couple of records , especially considering I helped out a book on Michael's music and how did this thread become a MJ vs Prince thread YET AGAIN?


anyway.....


That being said, Michael IMO is one of the best, but my pick would probably be either Sammy Davis Jr. or JB
[Edited 9/19/08 23:16pm]

Jeffery Daniels


Michael Chambers



The Electric Boogaloos


Destiny Tour



Dangerous Tour


Hell, the demo to The Girl Is Mine is better than the album version

[Edited 9/19/08 23:43pm]

Wow, what a load of crap some of these posts are. Yes i am a fan, but I am yet to come across a single person who denies MJ has singing, dancing and entertaining talent, even if they HATE Michael Jackson.

Even Frank Sinatra said "The only singer I have come across who is better than me is Michael Jackson" (or something like that).

Now I have never seen MJ live, but i know plenty of non-fans (as in people who like him a bit and just went to see him just coz they could) who have seen him live and they all say the same thing (even of the HIStory shows): "He is the best live performer I have ever seen" or "He is one of the best live performers I have ever seen".

you know what? We have this thread and we have that best dancer in music and more.

there can only be one



so you know what that means?

marnifrances said:

the reason they say he is the best act they have ever seen is very likey because it's true. it's very common for very big fans of specific artist to have a massive interest in that artist, and a completion collection of discography, and even seen them many times, but have a tremendous lack of music from other artists, and lack of understanding of other artists, and not even seen any other artists perform live. i've known a few prince fans for example, who have never seen anyone else live apart from prince, and have no real interest in any other artist apart from passing interest in certain tracks. as MJ was such a big star he attracted many fanatical fans who previously had no deep specific interest in an artist in the same way before, thus many of his fans would be fairly new to following an artist in a fanatical way, and new to attending concerts or even buying records regularly

how many of the michael jackson fans who you refer to who said he is THE best live performer they have ever seen have seen prince, the beatles, elvis, rolling stones, pink floyd, led zepplin, the doors, jimi hendrix, james brown, marvin gaye, aretha franklin, stevie wonder, miles davis, etc? i would imagine very few of them. they are making a fanatical excited passionate comment, rather than one based on a great deal of experience and understanding about music, a very biased point of view based on seeing few if any other artists of similar caliber

you at least admit that you yourself have never seen him live, so thus aren't in the position to be able to compare a MJ show with a prince one, but there are a few MJ gigs in circulation that you could hunt down and have a listen to, and i'm sure you will agree with my comments about the poor show once you've heard them

unique said:

She said very specifically they were non-fans

bboy87 said:

it's interesting how most MJ fans skip the parts about music and focus so much on the dancing as the important part of his live show, particularly when at 50 he probably can't even do it anymore, thus if he did tour again he couldn't perform in the way that fans would expect or demand. the guy just needs to get a decent band that can play his back catalogue with justice, and stand still in front of a mic and sing the songs without fucking about, and he could put on a great show, even if his voice has half shot. elvis did it, he was fucked up on drugs, fat and looking awful, but his shows were still enjoyable because of the band

i would say one of the best ways to judge a performance is to listen to the audio only afterwards, as the music is the main part of the show, and if you just listen to the MJ shows live you will understand exactly what i mean about how bad they sound. the band don't sound right, and MJ's voice is far from prime. he has left behind a truly awful live music legacy. i don't frequent MJ forums, but how often do people poll for a live album? and not a live dvd or video, i mean a music only live album. i doubt the majority of fans are interested in that as the main interest seems to be about the visual aspect rather than music

i have a number of live MJ shows, and a lot of prince shows, and the prince shows i'll listen to again for enjoyment, but not the MJ ones, i'd rather listen to the album versions. likewise the demos, i've got a fair number of MJ demos and outtakes, and listening to them it's clear why they are unreleased, but i listen to prince demos and outtakes and wonder why they didn't get released. again, that's why MJ can't get away with releasing a one disc set of outtakes, nevermind multiple discs like prince and other artists, and that's why the reissued versions of albums have crap like interviews and remixes instead of filling the disc up with more tracks from the sessions. the reason fans keep harping on about the billie jean demo is because although it's shite, it's one of the few notable outtakes that were released. it really shows how much work quincy jones put into the early albums, and it's incredible that MJ fans deny the guy the credit he deserves for making MJ the star he was. the fact that his music took a large slide downwards after quincy left just shows this, particularly when MJ hired some of the biggest producers and writers to work on his music afterwards, and they still couldn't come up with anything that was a patch on thriller or off the wall. it's been over 20 years now since he released an decent album, and 8 years since he released any album. that's not the sign of someone you could call the greatest performer, at least not whilst they are still alive and reasonably healthy

All this talk about Quincy made me do this:



I'm gonna funk this thread up, you keep it up...lol

unique said:

Sorry I should have clarified. These people are my friends' parents or are now over 50, and commented on both the Bad and HIStory tours. They all have a very wide taste in music. The youngest person in this "survey" of mine is 35. They have seen everyone from the Stones to the Beatles and pretty much everyone you have mentioned. My friend who is 35 has seen pretty much everyone and everything you can imagine (except artists before his time) and he still says Mj is the greatest live performer he has ever seen.

And yes, i said specifically non fans. Most of these people went for the "I have to see MJ live before I die / for the spectacle" syndrome. It's the only way I can get an unbiased opinion.

I never compared or made a comment based on my own opinions. I have never been able to afford to see MJ OR Prince live.

And yes, I have and or have seen practically every live show available on video and video file format from Jackson. I do not agree with you. There is no poor quality at all except in the video files themselves. I have no idea what you're talking about. I have seen my fair share of gigs in the last 20 years to know that what I see when I watch Michael Jackson concerts on TV is good. Sure some of the singing sucks but I have seen and heard far worse live singing before. (Garbage and NIN if you will) And when you listen to near perfect live performances of say, "I Just Can't Stop Loving You", "She's Out Of My Life" etc there's not a real lot that's bad. Plus from the early days to Bad Tour are supreme live vocals.

I am not even going to say any more, I have made my point.
[Edited 9/20/08 0:57am]
[Edited 9/20/08 0:58am]