I remember a few years ago, Babyface was winning various awards and people were throwing around the "Genius" tag quite a bit. I would always cringe when I heard the term applied 2 him.

My question is, does anyone think that Babyface should be thought of on that level? I certainly don't.

definitely not, we also should remember that such awards are not even made by fans picking them ..the record companies dictates who get them
[Edited 9/3/08 12:20pm]

I don't think so, because he's never done anything that is really interesting or new. He's very good at appealing to a middle of the road type of audience.

Nope.

No way

At one time, he had the ability of writing a person's thoughts on paper. "Breathe Again", and "Water Runs Dry" are great examples of him putting one's thoughts on paper during a relationship. When "Water Runs Dry" came out, Boys II Men expressed all of my feelings about my ex in that one song. especially the part that goes, "Don't even say I love you no more, cause saying how we feel is no longer allowed". Now, I believe he feels that he has to change with the times. This is a perfect example of, if it isn't broke, don't fix it"...Well he fix it, and broke it all in one shot. He has lost the ability to get into the character of the people that he is writing about.

Maybe he's not a "genuis" but he's certainly one talented songwriter/producer.His songs basically ruled the first half of the 90s.There was a time when everything he touched truly turned to gold.

Hell naw. If he was such a genius, he could come up with a hard jam like "Body Talk" or "Material Thangz" like he used to make with The Deele, and turn it into a hit these days.

I'm glad it is not just me.
Thanks.

vainandy said:

I agree with you. Hell, even his early slow jams were more "genius" than the later stuff he did. It's like after "Two Occasions", he kind of figured out a formula for a slow jam. He did the same thing with uptempo stuff. After "Rock Steady", he kept the same mode of uptempo songs. I'm not saying that they were bad, just he didn't stretch out creatively.

I remember hearing an interview with him about 10 years ago and they asked him about songs like Body Talk and Sweet November and it was as if he wanted to avoid that part of his life. It kind of pissed me off. How can you forget your early stuff.

Was is the word.

And yes, he was a genius.

Harlepolis said:

I say once a genius, always a genius. Not trying to argue with you, but in your POV, what do you think changes to make a person not a genius anymore? Do you think it's that they lose something in their brains, or is it that god has moved to another person, or that the timing just isn't right anymore...I'm curious.

If Babyface posses any amount of "genius" it would be the art of storytelling/writing lyrics. That is the one thing that sets him apart from a lot of songwriters. If there's any doubt, search for this album. It's one of the best concept albums of the last 10 years (that never got released).

daPrettyman said:

One of my favs. It's very good.

NDRU said:

I agree

But alot of artists go with the motions as opposed to stick with their own style, and thats how they "get dried" out, so to speak.

Duke Ellington was the ONLY exception I could think of who lived to see his 70s and never lost his "IT" touch and thats mainly because he was stubbornly competing with himself, as opposed to beating his rivals and feeling content about his produced work.

With Babyface, eversince he let others produce for him(out of label pressure I suppose) he lost his IT,,,same thing with Luther Vandross, eversince he let others come and tell him to 2nd guess each and everything he did, he lost it.

Maurice White fell for the same trap as well,,,,and the list goes on.

Harlepolis said:

I see, and I totally agree. I feel that "ex-geniuses" like Stevie or Prince haven't lost the capability, all that they were (leg flexibility aside) is still there. But still there's something missing. And unfortunately it happens to almost everyone, like you said.
[Edited 9/3/08 13:50pm]

NDRU said:

Maybe the change is in the listener?

No! But, I think he's good, and I used to have a friend who was CRAZY about him, it's made me laugh thinking about it!

Graycap23 said:

maybe. the listener gets older, and an artist can't make a first impression twice. Or maybe the times have caught up to the artist who was once ahead of the game.

Sometimes the material is still good, but the artist makes the mistake of trying to be contemporary instead of being themselves.

NDRU said:

There's nobody out-there to compete with

Thats what I'm saying, they believed their own hype and stopped feeling the need to outdo themselves like they've always done.

With Stevie though, I think its different. Eversince he got rejected by the critics and the public for choosing to go to a totally different route(Secret Lives Of The Plants) he started catering to the airplays rather than go with the FIRST thing he records.

vainandy said:

So by that rationale Prince is no longer a genius cuz he hasn't produced another Sign o' the Times.

SCNDLS said:

Prince is among the ones who've lost it unfortunately.
[Edited 9/3/08 14:13pm]

Harlepolis said:

He'll probably wake a year off and try to prove to us that he hasn't lost "it". That's why we're getting a live album with the book (i'm sure).

daPrettyman said:

He doesn't want to

All you'll hear is fluff untill somebody tick him off(like the song P-Funk) or he get introduced to a new concept to him(JW~Rainbow Children).

He could fuck around for all I care,,,I'll keep a hold of my money untill he releases something worthwhile.

Harlepolis said:

To be honest, I think P is at a point where he is all about the money and nothing else.

The same could also be said for Babyface. If you notice, after he was bought out of LaFace records by Arista, he slacked off on his music. I think after huge/monster hits like Change The World, I'll Make Love To You, etc. he had made the amount of money he wanted. As for solo material, I think he wanted to concentrate on making the type of music he wanted to make, but the record companies wouldn't let him. I know for Grown and Sexy, he was made to write and record several tracks before Arista got the product they wanted. After all of that, they still didn't promote it worth anything and the album didn't sell well.

daPrettyman said:

Yes! I agree...thank you again!

No. He was never a genius. Was he prolific in his output? Yes. Talented? Yes. Hitmaker? Yes. But he was SEVERELY formulaic, and in my opinion, that doesn't spell genius.

he wrote a lot of good songs, but he's just a conformist for the masses and made r&b music depressing and chill compared to the 80's

He's a deeply talented guy but he wasn't able to piece the words together quite smoothly than Smokey, with whom he's often compared with, or do things so fluently (playing instruments, singing and writing almost at the same time) like Stevie. So in that sense, that's why to me he doesn't fit the role of a genius. Not even as a record executive, he didn't handle affairs much like Berry Gordy and he and L.A. were a poor man's Gamble & Huff at best.

MuthaFunka said:

Yes, versitile he wasn't. He was very influential though. I feel after L.a reid broke their songwriting partnership around 1993, Babyface went totally MOR and generally got boring.

"the day" album has to be one of the dullest albums I've ever heard. Its sooooo safe and predictable. Only "how come, how long" has any momentum.

Funny, alot of rnb acts jumped on his style (calloways "sir lancelot" for example sounds like Babyface to me), but by the mid 90's, even soft rockers/mor acts like Kenny Loggins and Michael Bolton were using his services. Funny thing was, both their mid 90's albums were alot better then "the day".

His style was very recognizable though at one stage.

Genius no, but I respect him alot though. He was sorta like rnb's answer to rocks Desmond Child (except Face is alot more sucsessful). Both brought a crossover pop edge to their work, and definately had a identity that you could pick out quickly.