TonyVanDam said:

[/b]


I listen to much more rock than hip-hop and rock has been dead this whole decade. Case in point Nickelback keeps releasing the same song and keep selling. Daughtry comes along and rips off Nickelback and he sells.
I like The Ranconteurs, but not White Stripes. The fact that U2 has to be trotted out as a good rock act shows how bad off the genre is.

SUPRMAN said:

so what is the mock term for rock that keeps popping up in every other thread over and over whenever someone wants to make a point?

It amazes me when people who aren't 14 defend this shit.

I mean I understand the Jedi promo that the industry has done. I understand how thoroughly it's FUCKED people's minds, but people who really do know better and know more will defend this mess.

I guess I underestimated the power of not only the industry, but the mindfucked masses



who preach that this stuff is legit against all evidence that it's music cancer and a total insult to art.











































Seriously.

art is subjective last time I checked
[Edited 8/2/08 17:23pm]

Dance said:

It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold Us Back just called and says u have no idea what u r talking about...lol...Stick to "serious" music...
[Edited 8/2/08 18:07pm]

Meloh9 said:

Well, I may get attacked for asking this but what responsibility, if any, should "art" shoulder for its effects on people?

Is it "art" if it incites people to express the basest characteristics of their nature?

Take the Juaggalos, for instance. (For those who may not know, Juggalos are the self-named fans of rappers, Insane Clown Posse).

ICP songs regularly exalt violence and general disrespect for others. They created their own label called Psychopathic Records.

If you listen to ICP lyrics the choice of the name is self-explanatory.

The Juggalos basically think it's cool to act out in real life what ICP raps about on stage. You have kids as young as 11 and 12 listening to this "art" and becoming Juggalos.

Vandalism and violence is the norm for Juggalos and there have been occasional murders.

When asked about this behavior ICP says they have no connection to what kids do in their name; that they are just a stage act and their lyrics should not be taken seriously. Of course they give these answers with big smirks on their faces.

Uh huh. Sure, they don't know what they're doing.

So the question is this: If someone has a talent for rhyming and mixing beats can we still say it is "art" if what they rap about adversely affects young people who are at a phase in their lives when they are leaving childhood and seeking to develop their own young adult personalities by looking for acceptance in a peer group?

I give this example because it is an extremely obvious demonstration of the influence "artists" can have on their audiences but its clear that there is widespread influence on kids trying to emulate their heroes across the whole spectrum of hip hop.

You've got multi-millionaire rap stars who behind the scenes live in gated communities and take their kids to private schools in their Volvos but still sing about how ghetto they are pimpin' in their Escalades.

They know what they're selling and they know who's buying and why but still they use their talents to portray images that lead young kids into unnecessary trouble.

I have a hard time calling that art.
[Edited 8/2/08 22:01pm]

Dance said:

Dance said:

Dance, for Christ's sake, get over yourself. At least vain talks about what he actually digs. You do absolutely nothing but take shots at what you hate.
[Edited 8/2/08 19:53pm]

Dance said:

LULZ

DakutiusMaximus said:

the question I was raising is why do ppl have such a prejudice outlook on Hip Hop when there is so much diversity in it and others genres of music dont seem to suffer the same fate. It all gets lump together as bad and immoral.

Did the crappy hair metal bands of the 80's ( who also had amoral themes in the music and lifestyle) did that have a impact on how people came to see Lennon or Paul McCartney? No people knew the difference between these acts and their respective sub genres and the wires didn't become crossed

But not with Hip Hop, Why should the Yin Yang Twins represent Common? Music is just like people, I could watch cops and act like thats how all black ppl are, or that whites are meth heads with no teeth after seeing the same episode, or I can seek out healthy intelligent people and judge them on their own terms. Its easy to watch whatever is on television or pay attention to what some idiot suburban kid imitating the antics of ICP ( which many don't consider Hip Hop ) and write the whole genre off.

The environment I was raised in folks didn't listen to Rock hardly at all. Many people called it devil music. If I had of payed attention to that, I would have thought that Jimi Hendrix sang about Satan and everybody else that falls under the genre of Rock & Roill are all devil worshipers

Bfunkthe1 said:

That's my A list of hip hop there just throw in Common and Brand Nubian.

[/quote]


the question I was raising is why do ppl have such a prejudice outlook on Hip Hop when there is so much diversity in it and others genres of music dont seem to suffer the same fate. It all gets lump together as bad and immoral.

Did the crappy hair metal bands of the 80's ( who also had amoral themes in the music and lifestyle) did that have a impact on how people came to see Lennon or Paul McCartney? No people knew the difference between these acts and their respective sub genres and the wires didn't become crossed

But not with Hip Hop, Why should the Yin Yang Twins represent Common? Music is just like people, I could watch cops and act like thats how all black ppl are, or that whites are meth heads with no teeth after seeing the same episode, or I can seek out healthy intelligent people and judge them on their own terms. Its easy to watch whatever is on television or pay attention to what some idiot suburban kid imitating the antics of ICP ( which many don't consider Hip Hop ) and write the whole genre off.

The environment I was raised in folks didn't listen to Rock hardly at all. Many people called it devil music. If I had of payed attention to that, I would have thought that Jimi Hendrix sang about Satan and everybody else that falls under the genre of Rock & Roill are all devil worshipers[/quote]


People like "Dance" if we locked them in a room with say the following from different eras: Large Professor/Shock G/Dj Premier/Madlib/Count Bass D/Daru Jones/Buckwild/Pete Rock/Sa Ra/Will I am


People like that would shut up pretty quick when given the chance to make a track and show "Shit hop" how to do it. The point is alot of people don't realize that hip hop has inspired some of their favorite artists for over 3 decades. If you don't like the music, that's fine. But here's where I take the sword to your stomach and spill out your insides.

I would advise for anyone to really think for a second on what bands they listen to and maybe just maybe your favorite composition was inspired by a "Shit hop" song. That in itself cancels your argument in a split second and basically drops you and your rhetoric. Your favorite song wouldn't EXIST.

Now what do you think the chances of that are with over 3 decades of recordings , Grandpa Simpsons of the Org ?
Yea,thanks for playing. You've been greeeeeat



[Edited 8/4/08 9:13am]

LoveAlive said:

Y'all are making good points and asking good questions. We seem to be zeroing in on what it is that causes people in general to lump it all together and thereby prevents them from appreciating the really good stuff.

I'm going to take a snippet of my first post in this thread and reprise it here at this point in the conversation.

"Ok, so there are 100 pieces of shit hop for every piece of consious hip hop; why shouldn't we be able to wade through the shit to find the nuggets?

Because the vibe of the shit hop is not benign. It's full of in your face, fuck you attitude. To listen to it is to have to feel attacked by it and who wants that?"

That's where it stands for me. I listen to music for my own enjoyment and exposing myself to what amounts to sonic intimidation is not my idea of a pleasurable listening experience.

The vibe and the style of gangsta generally shoves itself down your throat celebrating values that I find extremely offensive.

Now if my listening experience were to be more selectively guided by hanging out with a friend who new the territory and could play me some individual cuts that had substance to them, that would be cool but just getting it random is something that I've learned to avoid.

In my collection you will find De La Soul, The Fugees and some Wycleff, Madlib, Paris, Guru and Us3 as well as many, many Jamaican artists who started the genre.

Because other forms of music were never played on R&B stations so they were no threat. Country, symphony, opera, etc. didn't kill anything on the R&B side that was danceable.. Shit hop did.

I dig all your post in this thread !
Right on !

DakutiusMaximus said:

namepeace said:

Namepeace, leave my name the fuck out of your mouth unless you actually know what the fuck you're talking about.

Be blessed.

There is no such thing as good hip hop.

It's not music.

It's not art.

Never was, never will be, and people need to give up the lie.

This is just like people who refuse to give up the curl and wearing small gold chains over their ties.

Dance said:

listen to the hit dog holler.

Stop playing high post and you'll stop getting called on it. That simple.

peace to you.

That's because it wasn't shit hop back then. That music was uptempo, fun, ass shakable, and definately made for a party. What music is supposed to be in the first place. And lots of the songs had original grooves behind the raps made with instruments from the ground up.

I didn't call it shit hop until the tempo slowed down to an opera pace, damn near all instruments were stripped off the songs, and they started using those weak sounding drum machines that just barely tap. All that remained was a slow weak sounding beat with some talking over it and a sample (that was slowed down) every now and then. These folks can debate over the quality and content of the lyrics all they want to but the quality of the lyrics don't make it shit hop at all. The stripped down songs, slowed down tempo, and weak sounding drum machines are what define the shit hop sound. I know because I invented the term and that is the reason I invented the term. I invented the term when the genre started sounding like shit and those things are the reason it sounds like shit.

vainandy said:

So you're still missing the perfect beat of the old school.

That's right. Music should be made for the dance floor or the bedroom. It's fine to have all these complex storytelling or political lyrics as long as they are placed over something that is for the dance floor. But it wouldn't matter to me either way if they had complex lyrics or simply kept saying..."get up, get down, shake that booty, shake that ass".....just as long as the music is slammin' and the music ain't slammed in over 15 years. If these folks want to "recite poetry" then they need to get their asses in one of those smokey clubs where everyone wears black turtleneck sweaters and berets and beats on bongos while reciting it. The music business needs to be for the dance floor.

vainandy said:

Hold on a second Chelsea.

I invented the term in 79. I was feeding the fish in my platforms and I heard this vile noise coming from somewhere. I thought someone was beating a hooker in the street, so I ran outside with a brick to chase the dude away because public beatings affect property value. Then I realized it was a group of homeless people rambling and throwing their arms around(most likely the result of drug withdrawal), and the drunken a-holes explained that they had invented a new genre of music to which I replied, "IF YOU DON'T TAKE THAT SHIT HOP SOMEWHERE ELSE..." Then one of them stole my watch and ran. And that is where the term really comes from.

Meloh9 said:

-----
I can't speak for the "Dance" but most people call ship-hop that crap that you are hearing on the radio today.

I do not consider old school rappers like "A Tribe Called Quest" to be shit-hoppers but let's also be honest as soon as the sampling started music was going to go downhill and the genre that relied on sampling was the first to go down.

phunkdaddy said:

-----
To see an art form recognize its potential and then denegrate into a manifestation of self loathing and stereotypes is enough to drive someone mad. #2 I think there is such an OBVIOUS racist component in mainstream hip hop that goes unnoticed or not talked about. You cant tell me that the ONLY hip hop that people are willing to listen to and support is the negative and exploitative stuff. There is still TONS of positive and good hip hop out there that people will never hear and labels will NEVER support. You cant tell me that isnt rooted in racism
-----
Co-Sign your not going to get anyone on this board to address the racist aspect of what has happen to Hip-Hop. A lot of people just want to live in a fantasy world and pretend that racism does not play role in the music industry promoting self-hatred and negativity ship-hop or positive and consious hip-hop.

laurarichardson said:

Come on, laura, you know better than that. Orgers have been doing so for years.

namepeace said:

-----
During what getting angry and calling anyone that brings up race as an issue a racist.

Because that has happened to me a dozen times on this board. You have a whole generation that can not discuss racial issues.

laurarichardson said:

Well, I don't know about that, but Blaque, myself, and others have discussed the "minstrel show" aspect of hip-hop for a long time running. I don't doubt there are some sensitive Orgers on this issue, and believe me, our P&R forum shows the limits of our abilities to talk race. But some of us can have the discussion, and as a matter of fact, it's the very reason many older hip-hop heads have fallen away from it over the last 10 years or so.

sign me up for a good ol' minstrel conversation any time !!!
I hate that bullshit...and commercial hip hop is nothing but that !!!!
Its kinda pointless discussing the handful of artist with integrity...
they will always be around on the outskirts of any Genre..
the majority are talentless fools !

namepeace said:

I've said many times that these clowns are nothing but puppets that are making old rich white men even richer. Not only are they pleasing them by dressing and acting like idiotic low class thug trash, but they are also pleasing them by influencing young black males to fight, rob, and kill each other, all for the sake of trying to immitate the hero image that has been fed to them by rich old white men running record labels. Meanwhile, the white kids who are buying the majority of the bullshit are listening to it in the comfort of their suburbs. And that's not even getting into the part yet about the thugs pleasing the old white men's ears by slowing everything down to a damn opera tempo in which they (an old fart) can relate to.

I definately see racism involved but I see money as their main concern. If shit hop were to take a turn and have nothing but positive messages, the labels would still push it to the public and keep everything else out because it would still be the cheapest damn thing to make which would make them the most profit. I guarantee you, if funk (with all it's multiple musicians and instruments) were to make a comeback with just as negative lyrics and influence as shit hop, they wouldn't push it to the public because it cost more to make. They are definately racists but they are cheap money hungry racists first.

I also have always said that I would love to see music downloads kill the record labels and watch all these old farts go so broke that they have to move into the ghetto next door to the thugs they helped to create and raise.
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[Edited 8/5/08 14:00pm]