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PrintableIt's funny and kind of sad how some of these D'Angelo fans need to use Marvin Gaye's career to knock-out Prince.
D'Angelo is returning, and be happy about that without having to use such tactics.. [Edited 8/20/08 1:39am] | |
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midnightmover said: mozfonky said: I did read the book, more than once. It was one of the main reasons I became such a Marvin fan, I could relate to him on so many levels. It was one of the most painful books i've ever read. Marvin did have ambivalence, that is why the book was called divided soul. Him saying he wasn't a great artist was like saying he felt "ridiculous" being a sex symbol. He wouldn't have done it if he didn't really want to and if he didn't have what it took. He did want to be the black sinatra and felt demeaned maybe, but he also was a freak. I'm sure he loved all the attention, the women. And also, even if he did believe he was a fraud, that's not really for him to say. That question belongs to his audience and we generally say he was a great artist, in my mind, one of the very best of the last 50 years. They don't make them like that anymore. His singing alone was probably some of the best ever, he along with Billy Holiday and a few others was a master of using his voice to express and also use it like a jazz instrument. Then, his versatility in his voice alone was just plain phenomenal. Prince became a great singer through hard work, Marvin was gifted. I'm glad you said that. David Ritz's book is responsible for much of the revisionism surrounding Marvin's less successful albums. It's no coincidence so many here have praised that book just as much as they've praised Marvin. The book makes folks fascinated with him so they then get fascinated with his more personal material. You are the first person to openly admit (though you perhaps didn't realise you were doing it) how the book influenced your judgement of Marvin's music. I'm sure if you asked most people in this thread they would say they judged his music purely on it's own without any outside influence, but they'd be kidding themselves. At the time of Here My Dear's release people didn't have all that personal knowledge of Marvin's troubles so they just judged it for what it was (which is the way all albums should be judged) and they concluded it was self indulgent (though it had a nice sound). IMO they got it right. The album has interest if you're interested in Marvin personally, but it's a hard album to enjoy otherwise. Still, it's much better than I Want You which is well produced, well arranged and utterly boring. It was also slammed at the time. Quite rightly. [Edited 8/19/08 7:46am] Well, I have actually only listened to hear my dear maybe once, not enough to judge it. I need to get it soon. Recently i've been listening to his live concerts and they are wonderful. Backed by a full band, even the "final tour" cd which is almost universally panned, i love his performances in it. And is it possible that people contributed to his legacy? Absolutely, doesn't impact it in my mind. Sinatra never wrote or played, Elvis never wrote and hardly played, Ellington has been accused of being a mediocre talent with only the ability to manipulate others. There are always going to be those questions about people. Either way, they were responsible for substantial contributions to American music, just like Marvin. However lazy marvin may have been, it never got in the way of his most passionate performances, the kind that can make grown men cry. Have you heard that one "Piece Of Clay" brilliant and it's his performance that makes it so. Don't know who wrote it, but I know that Marvin understood it and could deliver it like no other. | |
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mozfonky said: midnightmover said: I'm glad you said that. David Ritz's book is responsible for much of the revisionism surrounding Marvin's less successful albums. It's no coincidence so many here have praised that book just as much as they've praised Marvin. The book makes folks fascinated with him so they then get fascinated with his more personal material. You are the first person to openly admit (though you perhaps didn't realise you were doing it) how the book influenced your judgement of Marvin's music. I'm sure if you asked most people in this thread they would say they judged his music purely on it's own without any outside influence, but they'd be kidding themselves. At the time of Here My Dear's release people didn't have all that personal knowledge of Marvin's troubles so they just judged it for what it was (which is the way all albums should be judged) and they concluded it was self indulgent (though it had a nice sound). IMO they got it right. The album has interest if you're interested in Marvin personally, but it's a hard album to enjoy otherwise. Still, it's much better than I Want You which is well produced, well arranged and utterly boring. It was also slammed at the time. Quite rightly. [Edited 8/19/08 7:46am] Well, I have actually only listened to hear my dear maybe once, not enough to judge it. I need to get it soon. Recently i've been listening to his live concerts and they are wonderful. Backed by a full band, even the "final tour" cd which is almost universally panned, i love his performances in it. And is it possible that people contributed to his legacy? Absolutely, doesn't impact it in my mind. Sinatra never wrote or played, Elvis never wrote and hardly played, Ellington has been accused of being a mediocre talent with only the ability to manipulate others. There are always going to be those questions about people. Either way, they were responsible for substantial contributions to American music, just like Marvin. However lazy marvin may have been, it never got in the way of his most passionate performances, the kind that can make grown men cry. Have you heard that one "Piece Of Clay" brilliant and it's his performance that makes it so. Don't know who wrote it, but I know that Marvin understood it and could deliver it like no other. Yes, I've heard it and you're right. It's brilliant. If someone else did it I could imagine people would probably just hear it and shrug, but when Marvin does it you listen close. I'm a fan of Marvin. I remember when I was 14 blowing a month's worth of pocket money on Marvin albums.  But I take an objective look at EVERYONE. There are no exceptions, no matter how much I might like some of their work. There is no artist that I can't criticise on some level because the perfect artist has yet to be born.“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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blackguitaristz said: mozfonky said: I will; I remember a few years ago when D'angelo was talking shit about Prince putting out bad albums, not trying or whatever, and met the guy and said he felt like taking a shower afterwards. Way to talk about your hero D. Anyway, I didn't say much then but I just thought "what nerve, let's see where he is in a few years" and look at him. hahahah. Yeah, I remember him knocking P for putting out bad joints...Wasn't hip to the part of him meeting P and then he felt like taking a shower afterwards...What kind of way out shit was that supposed to be? You're going to copy a cat to DEATH like he did on Untitled but then say something like that? Personally, I don't have a problem with him slagging P. Let's be honest, as much as we all love his music, P can be an annoying little prick on a personal level. As inspiring a figure as he once was, he is someone who I would have absolutely no desire to meet. It's perfectly possible to admire and be influenced by someone, but also to see their personal shortcomings. D was just talking straight. There's not enough people out there who are prepared to do that. If only he could bring that kind of candor to his music then he might get out out of this rut he's in. “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
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midnightmover said: blackguitaristz said: Yeah, I remember him knocking P for putting out bad joints...Wasn't hip to the part of him meeting P and then he felt like taking a shower afterwards...What kind of way out shit was that supposed to be? You're going to copy a cat to DEATH like he did on Untitled but then say something like that? Personally, I don't have a problem with him slagging P. Let's be honest, as much as we all love his music, P can be an annoying little prick on a personal level. As inspiring a figure as he once was, he is someone who I would have absolutely no desire to meet. It's perfectly possible to admire and be influenced by someone, but also to see their personal shortcomings. D was just talking straight. There's not enough people out there who are prepared to do that. If only he could bring that kind of candor to his music then he might get out out of this rut he's in. ----- "There's not enough people out there who are prepared to do that." Really have you read some of the post on this board? 
The reality of the situation is you have a young dude who had not put his time in slag off an artist he ripped off wholesale in that artist's studio. D was disrespectful and you now see almost 10 years later how D turned out. | |
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midnight, I don't have a problem with someone criticizing P but when you are in the same business, a young kid, unproven, you really should keep your mouth shut in my way of thinking. For several reasons, respect for the way pavers, and just so you don't look so inept and incapable when you fall flat on your face as D'angelo did. It's not as easy as P makes it look and if D can't even accomplish a fraction of what he did then he ends up looking like an idiot. It makes anything he said null and void. As far as Marvin, I was just thinking how delusional the man was, I remember him saying he wanted to be a pro boxer and football player and firmly believed he had what it took, I've seen him training, and I know about boxing, the man was laughable. That is why you don't take personal statements like his into account, they are biased one way or the other. As far as his playing piano as a child, that makes sense but you still have to do work to keep up your chops, unless you are a musician you can't appreciate how hard it is to play like that. No matter how much talent you have, you still have to work, there are very few exceptions to that rule. | |
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laurarichardson said: midnightmover said: Personally, I don't have a problem with him slagging P. Let's be honest, as much as we all love his music, P can be an annoying little prick on a personal level. As inspiring a figure as he once was, he is someone who I would have absolutely no desire to meet. It's perfectly possible to admire and be influenced by someone, but also to see their personal shortcomings. D was just talking straight. There's not enough people out there who are prepared to do that. If only he could bring that kind of candor to his music then he might get out out of this rut he's in. ----- "There's not enough people out there who are prepared to do that." Really have you read some of the post on this board?
The reality of the situation is you have a young dude who had not put his time in slag off an artist he ripped off wholesale in that artist's studio. D was disrespectful and you now see almost 10 years later how D turned out. I mean people in the industry, not anonymous posters on the internet.  “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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mozfonky said: midnight, I don't have a problem with someone criticizing P but when you are in the same business, a young kid, unproven, you really should keep your mouth shut in my way of thinking. For several reasons, respect for the way pavers, and just so you don't look so inept and incapable when you fall flat on your face as D'angelo did. It's not as easy as P makes it look and if D can't even accomplish a fraction of what he did then he ends up looking like an idiot. It makes anything he said null and void.
I totally disagree. D's comments were about Prince PERSONALLY. You don't have to be a genius to recognise when someone is an asshole. Now, if he'd come out and said "Prince is overrated. I'm gonna wipe the floor with him", that would be a different matter. But he didn't. He was speaking as a man about another man, not as an artist about another artist. I don't go in for this over the top reverence. Treating people as if they're gods who can't be criticised by lesser mortals. It's bullshit. Prince probably came across as a condescending prick when they met, and D was saying how he felt. As far as his playing piano as a child, that makes sense but you still have to do work to keep up your chops, unless you are a musician you can't appreciate how hard it is to play like that. No matter how much talent you have, you still have to work, there are very few exceptions to that rule.
I can appreciate full well how hard it is to play like that. All I'm saying was that the bulk of that work was accomplished when he was a child. In terms of keeping up his chops, I'm sure he never stopped playing. It was probably therapeutic for him. As for Marvin being delusional, yes, but the examples you gave are the delusions of an egotist, someone who overrates themselves, not underrates themselves. “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
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midnightmover said: laurarichardson said: ----- "There's not enough people out there who are prepared to do that." Really have you read some of the post on this board?
The reality of the situation is you have a young dude who had not put his time in slag off an artist he ripped off wholesale in that artist's studio. D was disrespectful and you now see almost 10 years later how D turned out. I mean people in the industry, not anonymous posters on the internet. Anonymous or "in the industry"..... I don't call it the truth... It sounds slanted assumptions. What happened? What was said that night? You all need to stop. Honestly. You have no facts of what happened in that studio, but some stuff ?uest said back on Okayplayer.. Back then, there were some people pretending to be "in the know", and telling tall tales.. I remember then.. Its the trick of leaving this assumption that they knew more than they were willing to type on the board = They knew nothing, but assumptions and stuf that they wanted others to believe. Plus, you forget that the liner notes from Saul Williams came before any Prince could've said or done.. I would not have let them into my studio.. Honestly.. For all you say, it doesn't add up. [Edited 8/21/08 7:21am] [Edited 8/21/08 7:23am] | |
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midnightmover said: laurarichardson said: ----- "There's not enough people out there who are prepared to do that." Really have you read some of the post on this board?
The reality of the situation is you have a young dude who had not put his time in slag off an artist he ripped off wholesale in that artist's studio. D was disrespectful and you now see almost 10 years later how D turned out. I mean people in the industry, not anonymous posters on the internet. ----- I am sure there are people in the music industry ( at the old WB) who had plenty of criticism and bad things to say.  | |
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Linn4days said: midnightmover said: I mean people in the industry, not anonymous posters on the internet. Anonymous or "in the industry"..... I don't call it the truth... It sounds slanted assumptions. What happened? What was said that night? You all need to stop. Honestly. You have no facts of what happened in that studio, but some stuff ?uest said back on Okayplayer.. Back then, there were some people pretending to be "in the know", and telling tall tales.. I remember then.. Its the trick of leaving this assumption that they knew more than they were willing to type on the board = They knew nothing, but assumptions and stuf that they wanted others to believe. Plus, you forget that the liner notes from Saul Williams came before any Prince could've said or done.. I would not have let them into my studio.. Honestly.. For all you say, it doesn't add up. [Edited 8/21/08 7:21am] [Edited 8/21/08 7:23am] ----- The only info we have is what was stated by QuestLove who should not have repeated any of it in the first place. | |
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mozfonky said: midnight, I don't have a problem with someone criticizing P but when you are in the same business, a young kid, unproven, you really should keep your mouth shut in my way of thinking. For several reasons, respect for the way pavers, and just so you don't look so inept and incapable when you fall flat on your face as D'angelo did. It's not as easy as P makes it look and if D can't even accomplish a fraction of what he did then he ends up looking like an idiot. It makes anything he said null and void. As far as Marvin, I was just thinking how delusional the man was, I remember him saying he wanted to be a pro boxer and football player and firmly believed he had what it took, I've seen him training, and I know about boxing, the man was laughable. That is why you don't take personal statements like his into account, they are biased one way or the other. As far as his playing piano as a child, that makes sense but you still have to do work to keep up your chops, unless you are a musician you can't appreciate how hard it is to play like that. No matter how much talent you have, you still have to work, there are very few exceptions to that rule.
----- "It makes anything he said null and void" Co-Sign | |
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laurarichardson said: Linn4days said: Anonymous or "in the industry"..... I don't call it the truth... It sounds slanted assumptions. What happened? What was said that night? You all need to stop. Honestly. You have no facts of what happened in that studio, but some stuff ?uest said back on Okayplayer.. Back then, there were some people pretending to be "in the know", and telling tall tales.. I remember then.. Its the trick of leaving this assumption that they knew more than they were willing to type on the board = They knew nothing, but assumptions and stuf that they wanted others to believe. Plus, you forget that the liner notes from Saul Williams came before any Prince could've said or done.. I would not have let them into my studio.. Honestly.. For all you say, it doesn't add up. [Edited 8/21/08 7:21am] [Edited 8/21/08 7:23am] ----- The only info we have is what was stated by QuestLove who should not have repeated any of it in the first place. In an interview around that time: D'Angelo said about the PP Studio experience was: D'Angelo said that all Prince talked about was James Brown's music.. [Edited 8/21/08 7:38am] | |
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laurarichardson said: Linn4days said: Anonymous or "in the industry"..... I don't call it the truth... It sounds slanted assumptions. What happened? What was said that night? You all need to stop. Honestly. You have no facts of what happened in that studio, but some stuff ?uest said back on Okayplayer.. Back then, there were some people pretending to be "in the know", and telling tall tales.. I remember then.. Its the trick of leaving this assumption that they knew more than they were willing to type on the board = They knew nothing, but assumptions and stuf that they wanted others to believe. Plus, you forget that the liner notes from Saul Williams came before any Prince could've said or done.. I would not have let them into my studio.. Honestly.. For all you say, it doesn't add up. [Edited 8/21/08 7:21am] [Edited 8/21/08 7:23am] ----- The only info we have is what was stated by QuestLove who should not have repeated any of it in the first place. Wait a minute, mozfunky said that D met Prince and "felt like taking a shower afterwards". The quote didn't say anything about this studio story you guys are going on about, and neither did any of my posts. I translate that quote as basically saying P was an asshole. What happened on this little expedition you guys are talking about isn't really the point. The point is, if the quote is real, then he was dissing P's personality. In which case he can join Morris Day, Jesse Johnson and about two dozen other Prince associates who all basically say the same thing. As much as we respect him, he really is not a very nice guy. “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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midnightmover said: laurarichardson said: ----- The only info we have is what was stated by QuestLove who should not have repeated any of it in the first place. Wait a minute, mozfunky said that D met Prince and "felt like taking a shower afterwards". The quote didn't say anything about this studio story you guys are going on about, and neither did any of my posts. I translate that quote as basically saying P was an asshole. What happened on this little expedition you guys are talking about isn't really the point. The point is, if the quote is real, then he was dissing P's personality. In which case he can join Morris Day, Jesse Johnson and about two dozen other Prince associates who all basically say the same thing. As much as we respect him, he really is not a very nice guy. No, he's not very nice. He has some very good moral qualities but he is not nice. A great analogy would be someone saying Howard Cosell was a very good person but not a very nice one and that he'd sooner take a nicer person over a really good person. I guess I'm trying to say, being nice and being good are not the same. However, I don't know why D said that but knowing that he was young just makes me think he was the one who had the attitude, I could be very wrong though. I have never been one of these fans who thought Prince was an ideal as a human being, but then neither was Elvis, Marvin etc.., Most people fall way short of sainthood so i don't hold that against anyone really. Anyway, I was thinking of this thread and how Prince is such a strong person to persist the way he has through all these years when the D'angelo's come and go, not many people from Prince's era still put out stuff, still put on vital performances. So to see a D'angelo whining about women lusting after him sounds like a total cop out to me, and i guess I was just never really a fan of his. | |
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midnightmover said: laurarichardson said: ----- The only info we have is what was stated by QuestLove who should not have repeated any of it in the first place. Wait a minute, mozfunky said that D met Prince and "felt like taking a shower afterwards". The quote didn't say anything about this studio story you guys are going on about, and neither did any of my posts. I translate that quote as basically saying P was an asshole. What happened on this little expedition you guys are talking about isn't really the point. The point is, if the quote is real, then he was dissing P's personality. In which case he can join Morris Day, Jesse Johnson and about two dozen other Prince associates who all basically say the same thing. As much as we respect him, he really is not a very nice guy. If I recall there were comments regarding this meeting with D and Quest that suggested that the main problem they had was that Prince was trying to give them career advice. Now the tone in which Prince gave the advice could be the problem -- he was condescending, is what I remember being what they objected to. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll play it first and tell you what it is later. -Miles Davis- | |
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mozfonky said: midnightmover said: Wait a minute, mozfunky said that D met Prince and "felt like taking a shower afterwards". The quote didn't say anything about this studio story you guys are going on about, and neither did any of my posts. I translate that quote as basically saying P was an asshole. What happened on this little expedition you guys are talking about isn't really the point. The point is, if the quote is real, then he was dissing P's personality. In which case he can join Morris Day, Jesse Johnson and about two dozen other Prince associates who all basically say the same thing. As much as we respect him, he really is not a very nice guy. No, he's not very nice. He has some very good moral qualities but he is not nice. A great analogy would be someone saying Howard Cosell was a very good person but not a very nice one and that he'd sooner take a nicer person over a really good person. I guess I'm trying to say, being nice and being good are not the same. However, I don't know why D said that but knowing that he was young just makes me think he was the one who had the attitude, I could be very wrong though. I have never been one of these fans who thought Prince was an ideal as a human being, but then neither was Elvis, Marvin etc.., Most people fall way short of sainthood so i don't hold that against anyone really. Anyway, I was thinking of this thread and how Prince is such a strong person to persist the way he has through all these years when the D'angelo's come and go, not many people from Prince's era still put out stuff, still put on vital performances. So to see a D'angelo whining about women lusting after him sounds like a total cop out to me, and i guess I was just never really a fan of his. ----- Co-Sign All your points are on point. Maybe P is an asshole I don't know him so I don't really care. What I do know that if a young person is in the presence of an elder in their studio they need to be respectful and it sounds like D was not respectful. After all you do not have to heed anyone's advice but it is not going to hurt to listen to it and in the end D is the one with his carreer in the garbage can not Prince. | |
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* [Edited 8/26/08 10:51am] “The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson | |
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Nice is overratted anyways, as they say nice guys finish last | |
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The only time he and Saadiq came anything close to Mr. Nelson's level was "Lady".
I don't dig some of the lyrics though.. [Edited 9/17/08 8:53am] | |
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Linn4days said: http://www.jamglue.com/mixes/3951609--Your-My-Lady-Gold-City-Mix-D-Angelo
That should be "You're My Lady." "Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis | |
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AlexdeParis said: Linn4days said: http://www.jamglue.com/mixes/3951609--Your-My-Lady-Gold-City-Mix-D-Angelo
That should be "You're My Lady." You're correct.  | |
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