Ewww...

SUPRMAN said:

1.) No, NKOTB, N'Sync and others were directly based on the success of New Edition. NKOTB were formed by Maurice Starr, who originally formed New Edition and then lost a legal battle when the group broke away from him. Boyz II Men were a discovery of N.E.'s Michael Bivins, and I don't recall anyone comparing Boyz II Men with The J5.

2.) The Jackson 5 were not a vocal group in the mode of The Temptations, like N.E. was; The J5 were a semi-self-contained band, a la The Isley Brothers. I surely don't recall The J5 later involving hip-hop elements into their music nor did all the members have some solo success.

3.) The only semblance of N.E.'s career to The Jackson 5 was their first album, "Candy Girl," where they did have an electro-J5 sound. Not coincidentally, after they left Starr's auspices they developed their own style so none of their subsequent albums sounded anything remotely like The J5.

4.) It seems like your knowledge on N.E. is lacking here, not to mention some outright factual errors (Boyz II Men were a '90s act).
[Edited 6/26/08 6:06am]

SUPRMAN said:

Boyz II Men had more pop success than New Edition (which led them to sell more albums), but their careers essentially burned out via obsolence after the "II" album. In reality, Boyz II Men had fewer hit songs (11 Top 10 hits on the Billboard R&B Singles charts) than New Edition and the same number of No. 1 singles (five).

I'm not getting your logic in your opinion of N.E. vs. Boyz II Men (who not only were discovered by New Edition's Michael Bivins but were named after one of N.E.'s songs), but it seems to be more on crossover success than meaningful impact. Despite having huge sales and being constants in the media in 1992-96, not one member of Boyz II Men was known by the general public on a first-name basis while most people who are familiar with pop and soul music in the late'80s to early to mid-'90s can tell you the names of each N.E. member.

SUPRMAN said:

Their solo work is being mentioned because it is an expansion of the success and impact they had collectively. In addition to having more hits than Boyz II Men as a group, individually each member had a platinum album and several hit songs. The only other act that can claim that distinction of being successful as a group and each as solo acts is The Beatles. Not to mention each member of N.E. attained solo success in a manner that was different from how they made music as a group (which is even more unique) and Bobby Brown and Bell Biv DeVoe in particular made strong impacts in how black popular music was formed (and still is presented).

It's simply more than agree-and-disagree, because part of your argument is not even based on factual information or not wanting to use it. It seems like a lot of what you're ignoring speaks on your ignorance of the group (much less pigeonholing them as a J5-knockoff based on an album they did as early teen-agers 25 years ago and they moved on way since then).

SUPRMAN said:

That's because New Edition (save for Bobby Brown) made solo albums with the intention of expanding their impact and never had intentions of never coming back to the group. And you keep overlooking the fact that EVERY N.E. member had a platinum album and several hit songs away from the group, something again only The Beatles can really claim as a group and as solo acts.

Apparently, you're being facetious on the Tito Jackson reference (or maybe you truly didn't know) because he was the only member never to record a solo album. Jermaine Jackson had a long career, but largely his work was after he left The J5 in the spirit of not coming back to the group.
[Edited 6/26/08 6:22am]

no way, not famous enough. one hit wonders in th UK w/ candy girl, and err, that's about it.

If MaDonna is there.....everyone should be.

murph said:

Exactly, not to mention the success of Bobby Brown and Bell Biv DeVoe had a large impact in the shaping black popular music (in both the soul and pop markets). Brown was arguably the first black male artist of the MTV to cross over without having to "whiten" his music -- acts like Usher, Chris Brown, etc., are basically knockoffs of what he did. BBD was the first act to fully merge rap elements into soul music, leading to (good or bad) the dominance of hip-hop in the genre.TLC was created as a female version of BBD.

Like you said, some of the biggest acts of the past 20 years (Usher, NKOTB, Boyz II Men, TLC) trace and credit their success to the N.E. flag. Other acts have received such acknowledgements as being influential, so I agree a double standard is being applied here.
[Edited 6/26/08 6:31am]

I love N.E. and I think they were a better group overall than Boyz II Men. But in the HOF?

AlexdeParis said:

I'm not making a case for New Edition to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but like murph said some people seem to think N.E. was some marginally successful and influential act. I know right now, they have a better chance than a lot of acts who have come in the past 20 years.

My point is let's say what is part of the underlying criteria for induction: How relevant the act is to a white, pop music audience. To that segment, they don't see N.E. as that relevant. If N.E. had their success on the R&B charts (which was greater than Boyz II Men's) plus Boyz II Men's pop charts success plus their solo career success and overall impact on the genre then this wouldn't even be a discussion.
[Edited 6/26/08 7:13am]

LittleAmy said:

I feel you. They were certainly influential.

I just think it comes down to folks not really knowing the history and impact of New Edition...Again they are the diverse link to everyone from Guy, New Kids On The Block, Jodeci, Boyz II Men, TLC (they got their style from BBD) to Usher (bobby Brown all day...), Chris Borwn (ditto), N'Sync, and Backstreet Boys (lol...but true)...

They are the template for alot of what R&B and pop have done over the past 25 years...Again, I'm not a cheer leader of NE...But their influence cannot be questioned...
[Edited 6/26/08 7:39am]

murph said:

Influence or not, they don't belong in the hall. That said, if Madonna is there, they should be as well.

Graycap23 said:

But why don't they belong in the Hall?...Is this your opinion, or are u basing this on the facts?....or is it because you may not take modern R&B from '88 (keep in in mind they were making records in 1983)to the '90s very seriously...

On the real, I'm not even a huge Madonna fan...But the fact that you are saying that one of the most impactful female acts of her era (and of all time) shoudln't be in the Hall says it all...Things are pretty clear now...You r going by whether or not YOU like or have respect for an act instead of the facts...
[Edited 6/26/08 7:54am]

murph said:

Other than the one cd they made, I think it was N.E. Heartbreak, I don't they they were very good. Hell most of their songs are song out of tune.

Don't get me started on madonna no talent ass.

Graycap23 said:

Hmmmm.....like I said, this is all about what u like rather than using the facts...There are a lot of acts that I don't like, but that doesn't mean I have to dimiss their impact...

LittleAmy said:

I do not overlook the fact that they had solo careers to be that is not part of the criteria for the act New Edition to be in the Hall of Fame.
Bobby Brown the solo artist is not New Edition. It is the group he was in.

Let me say this.

This discussion has become circular. You state your positions, I state mine, we rebut each other and go back to square one.
I don't need to argue ad infinitum. I am not going to change your view nor are you going to change mine.
Don't say it's due to a lack of knowledge because plenty has been provided to me on this thread. I just don't see the case for New Edition in the HOF. You do.
IF you think New Edition is all that then campaign or whatever for them to be included.
Just don't insist that I have to believe it because you do.
Don't insist that I have to consider their work as solo artists just because you do.
I don't and probably never will.

AS I said, time will tell but I would not put them in the Hall of Fame.
That's my opinion and I'm entitled, as you are entitled to disagree which we already know you do.
\

murph said:

What would those facts be Murph? I don't think they had that big of an impact but that is just my opinion. They were a cheap version of the Jackson 5. Nothing more really.

murph said:

Thanks 4 that laugh.

Graycap23 said:

It amazes me that folks are running with the idea of them being a cheap J5 knockoff...It's like you guys are stuck in the era of "Pop Corn" love and forgot all about New Edition's adult transition as a group and as individual acts..

Again, I think the main problem is folks not taking their genre of music seriously...These are the same folks that think that New Edition, Guy, Bobby Brown, BBD, Jodeci, Boyz II Men, and TLC meant nothing to the big picture of music...That's what seems to be going on here....

murph said:

What seems to be going on is people simply disagree with you. You preach New Edition, Bobby Brown, etc., as gospel and we are just sinners who haven't seen the light . . . yet.
Accept the fact that you grew up with New Edition & Co, treasure them and enjoy them. Everybody doesn't feels them that way. You do you. The are some of us who choose other religions.

SUPRMAN said:

Again, the problem I have is NOT with folks saying that New Edition should or shouldn't be in the Hall...Nor is it whether people like New Edition, because believe it or not I am not a super fan...(cute "sarcasm" line...but you seem to be missing my whole point...) I'm a student of all music whether it's The Beatles, The Clash, Johnny Cash, Stevie, Prince, Eric B & Rakim, Nas, New Edition or Jodeci or Erykah Badu...

But I do have a problem with people dismissing them and the acts of their genre and era as mere footnotes instead of stating the facts without bias or ignorance...And that's the underlining theme...Not whether or not you or anyone else likes New Edition...
[Edited 6/26/08 11:07am]

Graycap23 said:

I was gonna touch on this. Madonna doesn't belong there either. Put her in a business hall of fame, but not a music one. She's a businesswoman who uses music to get where she wants to be. She's not a musician. Neither is Janet, New Edition, Backstreet Boys, etc.

Sure, New Edition had a lot of influence: on making crap music. All the groups Murph listed as being influenced by them with the exceptions of Boyz II Men, and maybe TLC were crap.

Now, I know the RRHOF is a suspect, tool-of-the-man organization, but why should we put just anyone in there because they sold a few records and had a few hits?

Should they?

Will they (as the original post asked)?

guitarslinger44 said:

Two acts were "crap"....Backstreet Boys and N'Sync....The rest, I can't really say that...Certainly not Guy, Jodeci and the acts you named...Hell, there were more acts in that era I didn't even name....And if you think I'm giving them props because they sold a few albums, you barking up the wrong tree on this one...

murph said:

In all fairness, you are the one that brought up their chart success and used it to show why you felt they should be in.

And what makes NSYNC worse than say, Jodeci? To me they're two sides of the same coin. If we put in NE, why not just put them in too?

guitarslinger44 said:

Well, if u were following the entire conversation you would see that I brought it up as a response of people saying that New Edition didn't "crossover"...I then followed that up with my underlining point: That their impact went beyond going platinum...

As for the other acts you named, they don't have the longevity or influence...

And if you don't know the difference between N'Sync and Jodeci, that's the problem right there...lol...Seriously...That's like saying Guns & Roses and Winger were the same group...
[Edited 6/26/08 11:22am]

murph said:

U are killing me. I like N.E. but they don't belong in the Hall.

Graycap23 said:

I already know you don't take their genre of music seriously...So it is what it is...U are also the same cat that says Madonna shouldn't be in...And on the real Cap, we can agree that she is overrated as all hell...lol

But to say that she shouldn't be in the Hall shows me where your head is at...I don't go into whether or not I like an act to admit that they have had an influence on music and culture...Madonna did...A huge one..And yes, she's still overrated...lol

murph said:

Yeah, I've been following it, but what does crossing over have to do with it? Who cares if they crossed over? That has nothing to do with membership to the RRHOF. It's a moot point from the beginning.

And I know the difference between Jodeci & NSYNC. Don't patronize me dude. I'm using them as an example. If NE were influenced by J5 and the J5 are already there, then why should NE get a spot? J5 were MORE influential.

guitarslinger44 said:

[B I N G O] I think we have a winner.