Annika said:

don't feed the troll annika


[Edited 5/19/08 3:23am]

laurarichardson said:

There you go again By calling Centipede "one of the worst songs of the 80s",nobody should take your comments seriously.

LightOfArt said:

Aaaw, but I'm home waiting for the electrician and I'm so boooored! Can't I feed it just a little snack?

SoulAlive said:

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No my friend that you think that crap is incredible is saying so much about your taste.

Annika said:

People think Michael produces stuff because he does. Whether or not you think it's good stuff is another story, but the fact that he has produced a number of things isn't really up for debate.

Even if you take that quote as 100% true, nowhere does it negate the fact that Michael produces. In fact, it doesn't even mention it. It just gives him a quick characterisation, and notes that he felt he didn't get enough credit for his work on Thriller, which is something a couple of people have mentioned over the years. If wagging tongues are to be believed, he was particularly peeved that he was not given a production credit for Beat It, when the final arrangement sounds almost identical to his original demo.

So basically, I have no idea where you're going with this. Please clarify? [/quote]
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If you take the time to read the book or any reviews concerning the book you will find that according to Walter Yetnikoff , who was an executive at CBS at the time Mike did not want Quincy to have any credit on Thriller at all. He implied that he had produced the recording on his own. I think it is interesting that a guy who plays no instruments suddenly was able to step up and single handily do the entire Thriller album without Q’s help.

I also doubt if Mike has written all the songs in claims.

laurarichardson said:

"Centipede" is liked by ALOT of people.To be honest,you're the first person I've seen who thinks it is crap.You probably hate it because your Prince didn't have anything to do with it,lol.

laurarichardson said:

As I said to you in response to the Orgnote you just sent me, even if you take it that Mr Yetnikoff's book is completely true, the fact that Jackson wanted more credit on Thriller does not, in any way, refute the fact that he has produced a number of things, both for himself and other artist.

Do you deny that?

laurarichardson said:

Yeah,we all know about Michael's ego and how he wanted more credit for producing 'Thriller' but that still doesn't mean that he can't produce music on his own.There are early,rough demos of songs like "Billie Jean" and "Workin Day and Night",which Michael started before he even entered the studio with Quincy.Here's a newsflash for you: writing lyrics,melodies and vocal arrangements (things that Michael has done) are all part of the production process.It's not just about playing the instruments Hell,Quincy himself doesn't even play instruments on most of his productions.



Yeah,Bubbles really wrote "Muscles" for Diana Ross And I'm sure that "Centipede" was probably written by one of the gardeners at Neverland,lol.
[Edited 5/19/08 7:20am]

SoulAlive said:

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""Hell,Quincy himself doesn't even play instruments on most of his productions. "

He cannot play the trumpet due to his brain injury.
He is a musician and I doubt he needed Mike's help with Thriller. I read Q's autobiograhpy and he gives Mike props as a great singer and performer. He never mentions his production skills.

"Yeah,Bubbles really wrote "Muscles" for Diana Ross "
It is such an awful piece of shit maybe Bubbles did write it.
Or do you think a grown ass man writing a song about big men with muscles was
trend setting.

"Centipede" was probably written by one of the gardeners at Neverland,lol

No Mike should take credit for that crap.

Annika said:

We really have no way of knowing that do we? Why would he want Q's name removed from the record. Why did he not want Quincy to get a Grammy for producing Thriller? It makes me question if he ever produced anything. I think some of you are very naive when it comes to Mr. Jackson.

laurarichardson said:

What, you mean apart from all the raw demos that have been leaked over the years? Billy Jean, Beat It, etc? And Quincy's own accounts of Michael playing these back to him? Of Michael singing Beat It to him from behind a sofa?

I will continue this debate with you if (and only if!) you can come up with a clear, logical argument, that isn't full of holes and that does not base itself purely on the autobiography of one man, which contradicts all other primary (demos) and secondary (personal accounts) sources of evidence.

Otherwise, I will just continue to consider you someone who obviously has no clue whatsoever how to argue a point. And I will thank you to please stop sending me Orgnotes about this.

A couple of very short clips of MJ taking about his writing process. Unfortunately the first one stops before it should, but anyway:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...IVqlXaH8-g

http://www.youtube.com/wa...i0c12e4PJ8

Will try to find some more later.

laurarichardson said:

Regardless,that does not change the fact that Michael has gone into the studio with several artists and produced a song for them.If he wasn't capable of producing,then why would these people (Diana Ross,Rebbie Jackson,LaToya Jackson) come to him for assistance? If you want to know what Michael is capable of (as a producer),why don't you ask the people who were actually in the studio with him? Instead of making up stuff when you don't know the real truth.




You're a fan of an artist who wrote songs about incest,oral sex,and even a song called "If I Was Your Girlfriend" and you're talking shit about "Muscles",which is tame by comparison?? In addition,Prince wrote many songs for women where the female is expressing her desire for a man."Muscles' isn't any more tackier than "Sugar Walls".

Annika said:

Laura just doesn't get it.Writing lyrics,melodies and vocal arrangements are all part of the production process.That's what Michael does.You don't have to play a dozen instruments to be able to produce a track.Michael was able to come up with the lyrics and basic melody of "Billie Jean" before he even entered the studio with Quincy.

SoulAlive said:

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Laura does not care about the production skills of Mike Jackson. I have never heard anything that he may or may not have been involved with that I thought was all that great with the exception of Thriller which I think is all Quincy.
Mike is a great singer and wonderful performer one of the G.O.A.T.S but when you start making him about to be some musical genius your taking it too far.

I would not say the lyrics to Billie Jean are poetry but to each his own. I also think the one of Brothers Johnson would want his contribution to the bass line for Billie Jean credited. I think it took a decade for him to get the credit.

Annika said:

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autobiography of one man, which contradicts all other primary (demos) and secondary (personal accounts) sources of evidence.

I am not going to send you any more org notes because you are too ignorant to read Walter’s book. Since he was the executive who signed off on Thriller, I would think he would know what he was talking about but you were in the studio when Thriller was being recorded so you know more than anyone. (LOL)

My personal opinion about Mike as a producer is that he has embellished his skills over the years and I do not find anything all that interesting about him as a songwriter.

I am sure if you took a pool Mike’s name would not come up as some great songwriter.

SoulAlive said:

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“Regardless,that does not change the fact that Michael has gone into the studio with several artists and produced a song for them.If he wasn't capable of producing,then why would these people (Diana Ross,Rebbie Jackson,LaToya Jackson)”


They wanted to ride on the Thriller train and the fact that you consider Mike’s sisters to be artist is mind boggling. Do you think producers were lining up to work with Rebbie and LaToya Jackson?


” If you want to know what Michael is capable of (as a producer),why don't you ask the people who were actually in the studio with him? Instead of making up stuff when you don't know the real truth.”

I am using the information from Walter’s book. I am sorry that you do not think that the VP of CBS had no knowledge of how Thriller was put together
-----

"You're a fan of an artist who wrote songs about incest,oral sex,and even a song called "If I Was Your Girlfriend" and you're talking shit about "Muscles",which is tame by comparison?? "

I am a fan of an artist who Bob Dylan said was a great songwriter and I am not dissing "Muscles" because of any sexual content. I just think the song is stupid and juvenile.

P has had his juvie moments but Mike is not in his league as a songwriter.
In addtion, if you do not get “If I Was Your Girlfriend “ you need work on your critical thinking skills my friend.

laurarichardson said:

Right, this pretty much sums up what I have to say on the subject, cut into nice, easy-to-handle portions:

As you yourself just stated, Walter was the executive who signed off Thriller. Meaning that he was nowhere near the studio during the actual recording process. Especially not during the early stages, when the songwriting would have taken place.

Nowhere in this book you hold so dear does Walter question Michael Jackson's ability to write and produce music. Nowhere. In fact, it doesn't even come up! You have taken a couple of lines which were, in fact, about Michael's ego, and made up a whole story about how this must mean that he can't produce music, all by your very self.

I'm just gonna post some demos

Billie Jean(1st demo)


Billie Jean(second demo)


Workin Day And Night(demo)


Wanna Be Startin Somethin(demo)


The Girl Is Mine(demo)


Cheater

Annika said:

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And you know Walter never went to studio at all because you read the book or because you were on the scene. I do not think you read the book and I am sure you were not around. You have no proof that Mike can produce anything. I have an opinion that he cannot and I do not really care if you do not agree with my opinion. It is called agreeing to disagree. I know that is a hard concept for a lot of orgers but give it a try. Now I am done with you.

bboy87 said:

Don't forget these gems!





laurarichardson said

:

You really are too cute, you know that?

laurarichardson said:

No one is making him out to be a "musical genuis".I'm just saying that he is capable of producing a song.You seem to think that a person has to play a bunch of instruments in order to produce something.If that were true,then guys like Timbaland and Dr.Dre wouldn't have been able to produce all those hit songs,now would they?



Bullshit.I have the original 'Thriller' album from 1982 and in the credits,it clearly states that Louis Johnson plays bass on "Billie Jean".That was never a big mystery,as he played bass on alot of Quincy's productions (and received credit for it).

SoulAlive said:

--
I do not like Dr Dre or Timberland’s music and if you think any of that crap Dr Dre did with Emmine is good that tells me a lot about you.

In addition, Louis Johnson got credit on the Thriller record but it took him a decade to get paid for it and it is the bass line that makes the song. Yes, I do think that being able to play an instrument is important since the producer is responsible for the overall sound of the record. Just my opinion on that subject. I never said you cannot produce unless your musician. You said that shit not me.

Mike's a truly lame songwriter. He should take a leaf out of prince's book and write songs about sex and God.
And then he could write some more songs about sex and God.
And maybe after 30 years or so he could have a catalogue of songs including a variety of subjects like, say, sex and God.

As for his production skills... have you guys heard Stranger In Moscow?

"Mike's a truly lame songwriter"

Co-Sign.
-----

Cloudbuster said:

Aww, is that the best you can do? You should go get laid or something then bring some sunshine to the Org. For a change.

I did not know it was my mission in life to bring sunshine to the org.
I think Mike sucks as a song writer and I have my doubts about his ablity as a producer. These are my opinions. You do not have to agree with them and the world will continue to turn.

Cloudbuster said:

Ridiculous. I don't think Michael sucks as a songwriter or producer at all but at the same time I don't think anyone here is saying that Michael is a great songwriter on the level of a Stevie Wonder or someone, not at all but he has had some great moments. "Billie Jean" for instance is a very well written pop song (well imo anyway). I also think he did a great job writing and producing "Stranger In Moscow". Definitely one of his better compositions.

Overall, I'd say Michael is a decent songwriter/producer who has had some great moments. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though but I don't like when people act their opinion is the only right one. Knock that s*it off already .
[Edited 5/21/08 10:26am]

Cinnamon234 said:

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I never said my opinion was the only right one. Some of you can't stand for anyone to have an opinion on this board that differs from the standard.

Michael's a decent songwriter,

if you don't like MJ, you shouldn't be in this thread because you're basically gonna continue debating and MJ fans, when it comes to this stuff, know what their talking about