Nobody is asking you to defend Ice Cube, even though you're trying valiently. You say we have to "understand the conditions" he lived in, but what about the conditions of the rest of the world that are created in some small way when such sentiments as his are spewed out into the world, especialy on underdeveloped minds that may not understand context or irony or satire ? Its not a vacuum...
As I said before, he has a right to say what he wants and not be censored..but people have a right to be offended or outraged or disgusted..it cuts both ways


Liar. That's not what I said. Read more carefully.

jjhunsecker said:

Actually, its freedom of speech I'm defending, not Ice Cube. You seem to be the type to pick and choose what speech should be free. I am not. I have defended plenty of perspectives that I didn't agree with simply because they have the right to exist.
If you're saying I offended you - "tuff". You know I don't care and I don't back down, so let's not go down that path, please. No one is trying to take away your little "right to be offended" - a liberty so many people seem to prefer these days over actual analysis. All I did was suggest that you actually listen to more than the cuss words and maybe you might learn something about the perspective of the artist. That goes for any artist, not just the ones that communicate in the way YOU want them to. It doesn't matter to me either way and I doubt Ice Cube gives a damn either. He doesn't seem to be the hypersensitive type. He's already refused to apologize for his lyrics on national television, so I guess he's not the sell out you're trying to make him out to be. He's grown up and changed the way he communicates with the general public. When he was making rap records, he wasn't making them for little suburban white kids, he was making them for the hood. Its funny what a sense of entitlement people get and how their egos get bruised when they are told "I wasn't talking to you", which is basically what he said about his lyrics. Yet he STILL managed to become a movie star after saying that. Hmmm. Sounds like his integrity is still in tact. Art is art. What people say on stage is for ENTERTAINMENT. Like I said earlier, Ice Cube has moved on. Maybe you should, too. Freedom of speech will live on long past you as well.

He may say he ain't apologizing...but he damn sure ain't repeating anything like that now . He knows where the money is at these days...You may see that as "integrity", I see it a lot differently...
As for "freedom of speech", did any of my posts suggest this song should be banned or taken off the shelves or anything ? You cannot point to ONE WORD in any of my posts that suggest that...In fact, I explicitly said the opposite...that he (and any artst) have a right to say whatever they want , and they have to be willing to take the heat for it as a result of that freedom. My only issue is the "double standard" (seen Michael Richards on TV or in the movies lately ???)

jjhunsecker said:

So you equate groupie chicks with all black people? You equate what basically amounts to someone not wanting to sleep with white groupies with someone who said "50 years ago you'd be hanging from a tree right now" Gotcha. Your real name wouldn't happen to be "Ruckus", would it? The more you type, the less you sound like you are who you say you are. (Clarence Thomas, is that you?) Most black people LIVE a double standard of social bias on a daily basis in a society that is CLEARLY unequally biased against us. That may not be your life experiences but it is that of the greater majority of us.
Like I said, you've got issues with Ice Cube's old lyrics? Write him a letter or send him an email or something. Seems like he's "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" with you anyway - because he changed and grew up a little - he's a "sellout" and if he'd have stayed the militant rapper then he'd be a hate-monger. Seems like you have something personal against dude. I suggest you take it up with him.

Oh, and integrity is being able to say what you feel at any given moment, even if it isn't politically correct,hunsecker. Cube did that.
[Edited 5/12/08 7:40am]

Nobody is asking you to defend Ice Cube, even though you're trying valiently. You say we have to "understand the conditions" he lived in, but what about the conditions of the rest of the world that are created in some small way when such sentiments as his are spewed out into the world, especialy on underdeveloped minds that may not understand context or irony or satire ? Its not a vacuum...
As I said before, he has a right to say what he wants and not be censored..but people have a right to be offended or outraged or disgusted..it cuts both ways


Liar. That's not what I said. Read more carefully.

jjhunsecker said:

Actually, its freedom of speech I'm defending, not Ice Cube. You seem to be the type to pick and choose what speech should be free. I am not. I have defended plenty of perspectives that I didn't agree with simply because they have the right to exist.
If you're saying I offended you - "tuff". You know I don't care and I don't back down, so let's not go down that path, please. No one is trying to take away your little "right to be offended" - a liberty so many people seem to prefer these days over actual analysis. All I did was suggest that you actually listen to more than the cuss words and maybe you might learn something about the perspective of the artist. That goes for any artist, not just the ones that communicate in the way YOU want them to. It doesn't matter to me either way and I doubt Ice Cube gives a damn either. He doesn't seem to be the hypersensitive type. He's already refused to apologize for his lyrics on national television, so I guess he's not the sell out you're trying to make him out to be. He's grown up and changed the way he communicates with the general public. When he was making rap records, he wasn't making them for little suburban white kids, he was making them for the hood. Its funny what a sense of entitlement people get and how their egos get bruised when they are told "I wasn't talking to you", which is basically what he said about his lyrics. Yet he STILL managed to become a movie star after saying that. Hmmm. Sounds like his integrity is still in tact. Art is art. What people say on stage is for ENTERTAINMENT. Like I said earlier, Ice Cube has moved on. Maybe you should, too. Freedom of speech will live on long past you as well.

jjhunsecker said:

So you equate groupie chicks with all black people? You equate what basically amounts to someone not wanting to sleep with white groupies with someone who said "50 years ago you'd be hanging from a tree right now" Gotcha. Your real name wouldn't happen to be "Ruckus", would it? The more you type, the less you sound like you are who you say you are. (Clarence Thomas, is that you?) Most black people LIVE a double standard of social bias on a daily basis in a society that is CLEARLY unequally biased against us. That may not be your life experiences but it is that of the greater majority of us.
Like I said, you've got issues with Ice Cube's old lyrics? Write him a letter or send him an email or something. Seems like he's "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" with you anyway - because he changed and grew up a little - he's a "sellout" and if he'd have stayed the militant rapper then he'd be a hate-monger. Seems like you have something personal against dude. I suggest you take it up with him.

Oh, and integrity is being able to say what you feel at any given moment, even if it isn't politically correct,hunsecker. Cube did that.
[Edited 5/12/08 7:40am]

Well, it didn't take long for the personal attacks , didn't it ?? Surprised you didn't call me "Uncle Tom"... Pretty much what I've expected for those who don't really want Black people to think for themselves, but to march in lockstep with the accepted "philosphy"...(BTW- you jump to a lot of conclusions about me based on these posts- how little you know... I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1970s where there used to be race riots in schools, so I probably saw more racist violence first hand than Cube -or you- ever did. I simply chose not to make excuses for stupidity..from anybody !) Ice could have easily said "I don't find white women attractive" and not slept with any of them and leave it at that(though I don't think he'd be geting much play if he wasn't famous...Denzel he ain't). Why speak in such derogatory terms ?? And go to the trouble to write it out and release it on a CD ?? Is THAT the same as somebody saying something extremely stupid in anger and frustration , which I'm sure we've all done ??


Two other points:1. I couldn't give a shit about Ice Cube- to me his music is garbage and his movies are childish junk. I'm more interested in the points of view raised in this post, and the social reactions to behavior and language by some and not others.

2. Clarence Thomas is as distateful to me as Bush, Cheney, Gingrich, Lott, Scalia or any other right wing asshole. However, I'm not going to say he shouldn't be such an asshole because he's Black. He has a right to his ridiculous point of view as much as anybody else does

And I'm STILL waiting for you (or anybody) to show where I stated anything here in favor of censorship or banning freedom of speech
[Edited 5/12/08 8:32am]

jjhunsecker said:

Man I grew up in the South. Don't try to talk to me about racism. NY ain't seen racism like the "good ol' boys" back home could dish out. As to why Cube states things the way he does - I already answered that. You must have missed it. HE WASN'T TALKING TO YOU AND "OTHERS". He ain't Common or Fresh Prince. His audience was the hood and if you want the hood to listen to you, you have to communicate in a language they speak and understand. If you want to appear to be a boss in the hood you have to OVERSTATE. You probably still don't get it. And before you jump to another conclusion, I am not saying that everyone in the hood is ghetto and talks that way. I am saying his target audience was the gangster rap crowd and they don't want to hear that "let's all contemplate the existence of love" bullshit when they just got their phone cut off, mom just lost her job and to top it off, the Koreans just kicked them out of the corner store for not buying shit even though they were in there two days ago "buying shit". What YOU can't seem to understand is that the world is not this candy-coated surface you want it to be. There are people in this world who would slit your throat for stepping on their shoes. Now just who do you think they'll listen to? Common, Nelly or Ice Cube and Scarface? He communicates the way he does just as Kurt Kobain did, just as Prince does, just as Andre 3000 does, just as Marilyn Manson does...everyone has their own target audience and speaks to them accordingly. You seem to have trouble understanding that. "Cave Bitch" is an angry song about white female GROUPIES. ITS NOT MEANT TO BE NICE, its meant to crush an ego or two and at the same time profess a black man's preference for black women. You and the rainbow coalition crew may not get it but a lot of black women in the hood did. Cube is married to a sista and he never had a bunch of white women in his videos. Its his PREFERENCE and like it or not, that's on him.
He's saying he doesn't need Spring Thomas when he can have Jasmine Cashmere.

To DakutiusMaximus:
"Smack My Bitch Up" was released as a single, had a video and the irony was that at the end of the video, the person that was causing all that trouble, doing drugs, throwing up, and treating the women like that was....A WOMAN. At the end of the video, they show you that its a woman by the reflection in the mirror. Nonetheless - that song was wildly popular. "Cave Bitch" never received any airplay. "Black Korea" is literally about one minute long. Neither of these songs went any further than the cassette/CD, which was clearly stamped with a sticker. Suffice to say, when you speak of social impact - "Smack My Bitch Up" has much more of it that "Cave Bitch" or "Black Korea".
If parents do their jobs and monitor their children or at least talk to them and buffer what they hear with some understanding, it would have less of an effect on them and they would have the tools needed to deal with it.
[Edited 5/12/08 9:06am]

spacedolphin said:

I'd be more shocked if I found out it took talent to make it.