I grew up in Mississippi and still live there. In the 1970s, white people were listening to disco. In the 1980s, most of those same white people that liked disco, all of a sudden hated disco. They hated funk also and called it "jungle jive music". In the late 1980s, a lot of white people started listening to shit hop. Looks like they hated black music until it became slow enough to fit their ultra white Lawrence Welk tastes. Anyway, their love for shit hop didn't stop them from being racists. They continued on business as usual.
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[Edited 5/10/08 8:51am]

vainandy said:

YEAH IT LIKE

NOBODY EVEN LISTEN TO CUBE LYRIC!

Being half Asian I found his lyric both offensive and immature.

Being half white, I found his songs very difficult to dance to.

Early Ice Cube = when rap music was actually half decent. I don't really listen to rap music anymore. I kind of grew out of that. But when I did listen to these songs I was smart enough to not take the lyrics too seriously. Wasn't Cube hanging out with the Chilli Peppers around this time anyway?

Very interesting song.

& I very much appreciate BlaqueKnight's posts in this thread.

BlaqueKnight said:

Yes, people have their preferances. But just because he has his preferance DOES NOT mean that he should spout RACIST HATE against white women and no body says nothing!!!! If a white man said this about black women he would be crucifed. and rightfully so. Hate against any race is disgusting, and WRONG. I am outraged, and thats all I have to say on the subject. There is absolutely NO excuse for anyone of ANY color to say such things about any woman no matter what color she is. Hate is hate, and its ALL wrong!

vainandy said:

This is true, I was dating Italian guy once and he was prejudiced as hell, although strangely, he was all about hip hop. I am a "white girl" (I freaking HATE the term "white girl"!!! arugh!) Not because I am not proud to be who I am but I hate the connotation. I have always said, "Yes, I may have white skin, but I am not a "white girl". Because for me the term has always been more of a mentality than a skin color. You guys KNOW the stereotype that the term refers to when someone says it- racist, snobby & stuck up. and that is not and has never been me. I have loved R&B & Hip Hop my whole life., have a rainbow of diffrent friends, and dated mostly Hispanic guys. So where I grew up, and the with the crowd that I have hung with, I have been in the minority and have had my share of prejudices. So it goes both ways.

You're absolutely right Purple Alegria; hate for hate's sake is wrong no matter what colors are involved ... but unfortunately controversy and shock appeal sells records.

Cube either actually believed in what he was saying or he knew stirring people up would make him money.

Whichever the case he had no scruples.

The real damage done with stuff like this is to the impressionalbe young kids who look up to the the rap stars as role models. They are largely learning about life from their music. It's sad but true.

I wish more rappers would see that because ofthis influence they have a responsibility to send messages that heal rather than perpetuate hate.

Well, that's just my idealistic thinking but it's not impossible as evidenced by:
[img] http://www.latimes.com/ne...tory[/img] Big ups to "The Businessmen."

And as for all the rappers rich on record sale money, didn't somebody start a thread here once pointing out all the thug rappers "singing" about life on the streets in the ghetto who were still plying that shit but living in big gated communities and sending their kids to private schools?

I guess songs about living next door to some microsoft exec and dropping the kids off at $5000 a month kindergarten wouldn't sell records though.

It's a tough situation. Maybe someone could start a thread about rappers who offer positive messages; there must be some, eh?
[Edited 5/11/08 9:22am]

DakutiusMaximus said:

I agree! Great post. Common is one of them, a rapper with a postive message I mean....

I don't disagree with your points blaqueknight however I do have a strong opinion about valuing money over influence.

If what you're saying is that Cube isn't really what he claims to be in his raps but is just doing it to make money without giving any thought to his effects in the world there's a dissconnect there.

This is not a new argument. The fact that glorifying a violent and hateful lifestyle through either music or film has been disucssed to death but I don't think there's any doubt that (especially young) people are influenced by what they see on the screen and hear from their speakers.

And it's not just Cube. What about the Jackass guys on MTV who do all those dangerous and stupid stunts? How many kids have been killed or injured by mimicing those a-holes?

Or the Insane Clown Posse? I've seen these jerks interviewed about all the violence their Jugalo fans perpetrate and they just sit there and laugh about it. Selling more records no matter what the social fallout seems to be what drives them.

So I don't look upon Ice Cube as a smart business man who is just working the system nor do I dismiss his dismissal of knowing what effect he may be having on today's youth where they think it's cool to be a thug.

It seems like every week we see something shocking in the news about young peoples lack of respectful values. Murder over tennis shoes, gold chains or sports jackets. Those girls that beat up the other girl just so they could put it up on Youtube. The girl who stomped the 82 year old woman in a road rage incident just last week.

You have to wonder what is shaping these kid's beliefs and actions. I don't think there can be any doubt at this point that the effects of gangster rap music play a big part.

And didn't I just read that the new version of Grand Theft Auto sold $500 million in it's first week?

Funny coincidence: Timmy Thomas's Why Can't We Live Together is playing on the radio as I write this post (Sade's version).
[Edited 5/11/08 11:34am]

SCNDLS said:

Yeah, Cube was the s***, but those lyrics, those lyrics He was a crazy mofo.

I'm curious ... do you guys have anything to say about ego-maniac white women who believe they are god's gift to the world, the height of femininity, and that all black men secretly lust after them and would grovel and do anything for the blessed chance to touch them? ...because Ice Cube has something to say about that. And he said it.


His comments were for a particular type of woman with that mentality, which truly exists in the world. And, um, got checked in this song.

It was also about the historical myth of the coveted, untouchable white women on a pedestal ...which has brought death and crisis to many a black man ...with most black men validating the myth even to this day.

I see this song as an assertion of Ice Cube's typical lyrical rejection of society and his assertion of self-respect. I don't see it as racist.

For every action, there's a reaction.
[Edited 5/11/08 10:42am]

SynthiaRose said:

They don't hear you because they covet those very groupie chicks Ice Cube was dissing. They love those slutty, blonde, bi-sexual chicks who flash their tits at a moments notice and will do anything to artists backstage. Those Pamela Anderson type tramps are highly coveted and many in "mainstream" America can't understand why a black man wouldn't fall to their feet and worship them when they offer themselves up for aftershow sex. Not every brotha has self-hate issues and is brainwashed by television.

As to Ice Cube's form of expression, talk to HIM about that. I think its silly to get so "enraged" over a song that's over a decade old that is not CURRENTLY affecting anyone. Whatever damage its done, it did in the 90s.
There's plenty to be pissed about NOW, yet some of the posters in this thread are talking about Cube's records like they dropped last Tuesday or something.

TonyVanDam said:

I did not read every page of posts before I wrote this, actually read pages 1 and 4.

I own that movie, one of Ice Cube's better cinematic performances.
The protests here beg the question, why is misogyny tolerated and enjoyed
but mentioning white women is reviled? Did you think that rappers were
merely referring to black women, and therefore, you could safely share and adopt those views because you don't know/date/sex/marry/ black women?

It seems hollow to imply or state that racism is more evil than the misogyny.
I guess if it's not under your roof it's just someone else's whining.

I do have to agree with the impression that it's a little late to be getting riled up about something that is no longer readily available, and anyone interested would have to seek it out and find much more just like it, but I'd understand being angry about the Federal and State response to Hurricane Katrina. OR would you rather have us be distracted from the real issues?
[Edited 5/11/08 12:38pm]

Good point SUPRMAN; the "Smack My Bitch Up" mentality is wrong no matter what color she may be.

And blaqueknight, the difficult part of this conversation is that you can almost never trace back the social effects to a specific cause, eg. Cave Bitch but in the aggregate there's an overall effect from this genre of music which continues and passes from generation to generation.

I can't agree with your point that the only effects of this type of thing stay sequestered in their own time period. The values that are seeded in one generation take root and carry on into the future.

There's a (supposed) comedy movie called Idiocracy which is based on this premise and yes it did make me laugh but it also made me cry to see just how much popular culture has degraded us (I'm talking about American humans of any color here) as a respectful and intelligent people.

Watch if you dare:


[Edited 5/11/08 12:48pm]

DakutiusMaximus said:

That is NOT what I said. Don't misquote me. I said there are more important things to get pissed about that are going on now rather than drudging up old Ice Cube songs. Get it right. I saw Idiocracy. That doesn't apply here to this situation. Every time a black man gets mad about something there are a hundred people to tell him he's wrong for it and 10 foot-shuffling apologists to say "shame on you for speaking up against massa". I get sick of that. Earlier I said if I were a white woman, I'd be offended. I spoke too soon and not specifically enough. If I were a white GROUPIE SLUT, I'd be offended because my EGO would be hurt.
Trying to cry offense to a song a decade old is too little, too late. Has anyone seen Ice's latest movie? "Are We Done Yet"? I'd say he's moved on. You want to sweat him about his opinions and songs, go right ahead but miss me with that "well, I never" bullshit after pulling up a song that's a decade old. How are you gonna be offended by that shit now? I call bullshit. Its a song. You know what I do to songs that offend me? I change the damn station. This song ain't even being played nor was it ever on radio. So in order to truly be offended, you would have had to have bought the Ice Cube album.
[Edited 5/11/08 13:04pm]

DakutiusMaximus said:[quote]Good point SUPRMAN; the "Smack My Bitch Up" mentality is wrong no matter what color she may be.

And blaqueknight, the difficult part of this conversation is that you can almost never trace back the social effects to a specific cause, eg. Cave Bitch but in the aggregate there's an overall effect from this genre of music which continues and passes from generation to generation.

I can't agree with your point that the only effects of this type of thing stay sequestered in their own time period. The values that are seeded in one generation take root and carry on into the future.

There's a (supposed) comedy movie called Idiocracy which is based on this premise and yes it did make me laugh but it also made me cry to see just how much popular culture has degraded us (I'm talking about American humans of any color here) as a respectful and intelligent people.

Watch if you dare:

Yeah I saw 'Idiocracy.' The first time it was on and came in somewhere near the end and thought it was just too stupid. Then I watched it from the beginning and was throughly depressed. The road to national irrelevance is apparently well paved with pop culture.

blaqueknight,

I didn't realize that I come off as being in the "well, I never" camp. I know we are coming from two very different life experiences, you being a somewhat younger black man and me being a 60 year old white guy but I didn't think I was that lame.

I'm curious about two things:

What's your opinion of "The Businessmen?"

Do you think that musicians and film makers should have any sense of responsibility for the messages their art portrays to the world?

DakutiusMaximus said:

That question is a double edged sword that cuts regardless of a positive or negative response.
IF they should, then how far does that responsibility extend? To an intended audience or anyone who might conceivably encounter the artistic endeavor?
If no, then they are selfish, self-obsessed, cold-hearted, uncaring, capitalistic _____

But an artist's chief worry should not be about what sensitivities I may or may not have. Express your vision and I can choose how I deal with my reaction to it. The interaction, even if negative doesn't have to harmful to either the artist or the viewer.

Well said, SUPRMAN.

The subject gets even deeper when we try to define what constitutes actual art vs what expressions might be able to be exploited for a pure profit motive.

I think what I'm getting at is not any kind of "gotcha" with regard to how someone would answer those questions but I'm interested in the greater question of how we view ourselves in relation to our fellow man; are we in any sense and if so, to what degree, "our brother's keeper?"
[Edited 5/11/08 13:47pm]

SynthiaRose said:

I think anyone woman or man who think that they are gods gift to the world, and that everyone lusts after them needs to be checked. It seems like everyone has that mentality these days. Look at all the self agrandizing lyrics both male and female! Its the church of self, and everyone is their own preacher. I have never been so turned off by contemporary music as a whole in my life. It is so fake, desperate, and just reeks of insecurity. but that is a whole other thread.....

But I know what type of white girl you are apeaking of the whole "OMG becky... look at her butt" type of chick that would show up in that TV show the hills or something. Just the type that I detest. But from what I see, that type of chick thinks that ALL men secretly lust after them. and if you are not rich and look like the type they like, they treat people like shit. I don't think its against black men only, As I have seen these same types in real life, with black dudes. But its a certain type of black dude, one that fits their mold (has money, dresses well, you know the type.... lol) Lets take the Kardashian sisters as a example. Its more of a class thing now than a skin color thing IMHO.

Sorry, I don't mean to make a big deal about old news. but I have never heard these lyrics before. Just shocked that these did not get more press. I would be equally outraged if they were about any skin color blk, brown, yellow, pink with purple polka dots..... its just fucked up.

BlaqueKnight said:

BlaqueKnight said:

BlaqueKnight said:

So are you saying he really believes this, or he's a total fraud who said a lot of bullshit just to get attention ??? As I mentioned in an earlier post, he wouldn't DARE say stuff like this today,even if he really still believed it, because now that he's a movie star who wants to appeal to 50 million ticket buyers, as opposed to 500,000 CD buyers, he has too much to lose by alienating movie audiences (and executives as well). If he was a true artist, and if he STILL believes this point of view, then he'd still be saying this type of thing. But he's smart enough to know which side his bread is buttered on these days (and it is sho' nice living in Beverly Hills or wherever, and not no South Central no mo'...)

BlaqueKnight said:

Nobody is asking you to defend Ice Cube, even though you're trying valiently. You say we have to "understand the conditions" he lived in, but what about the conditions of the rest of the world that are created in some small way when such sentiments as his are spewed out into the world, especialy on underdeveloped minds that may not understand context or irony or satire ? Its not a vacuum...
As I said before, he has a right to say what he wants and not be censored..but people have a right to be offended or outraged or disgusted..it cuts both ways

And you see any minority person who speaks out on something like this as some sort of shuffling darkie just waiting for a chance to kiss the massa's ass.. that in itself is offensive, because it says all us Black people HAVE to think the same way to be "authentically Black" (to quote the brilliant John McWhorter) instead of being allowed to have our own opinions or beliefs on an issue. If a non-black person said to me "You can't think that way about such and such because you're Black", I'd be pissed off..and i'm just as pissed off if one of my own people say it
[Edited 5/11/08 22:29pm]

jjhunsecker said:[quote]
Nobody is asking you to defend Ice Cube, even though you're trying valiently. You say we have to "understand the conditions" he lived in, but what about the conditions of the rest of the world that are created in some small way when such sentiments as his are spewed out into the world, especialy on underdeveloped minds that may not understand context or irony or satire ? Its not a vacuum...
As I said before, he has a right to say what he wants and not be censored..but people have a right to be offended or outraged or disgusted..it cuts both ways


Liar. That's not what I said. Read more carefully.

jjhunsecker said:

Actually, its freedom of speech I'm defending, not Ice Cube. You seem to be the type to pick and choose what speech should be free. I am not. I have defended plenty of perspectives that I didn't agree with simply because they have the right to exist.
If you're saying I offended you - "tuff". You know I don't care and I don't back down, so let's not go down that path, please. No one is trying to take away your little "right to be offended" - a liberty so many people seem to prefer these days over actual analysis. All I did was suggest that you actually listen to more than the cuss words and maybe you might learn something about the perspective of the artist. That goes for any artist, not just the ones that communicate in the way YOU want them to. It doesn't matter to me either way and I doubt Ice Cube gives a damn either. He doesn't seem to be the hypersensitive type. He's already refused to apologize for his lyrics on national television, so I guess he's not the sell out you're trying to make him out to be. He's grown up and changed the way he communicates with the general public. When he was making rap records, he wasn't making them for little suburban white kids, he was making them for the hood. Its funny what a sense of entitlement people get and how their egos get bruised when they are told "I wasn't talking to you", which is basically what he said about his lyrics. Yet he STILL managed to become a movie star after saying that. Hmmm. Sounds like his integrity is still in tact. Art is art. What people say on stage is for ENTERTAINMENT. Like I said earlier, Ice Cube has moved on. Maybe you should, too. Freedom of speech will live on long past you as well.