theAudience said:

Exactly. Usually, Funk fans start off with late 70s Funk. But once they got the taste, they dig deeper and eventually will end up with Dyke and classic JB. Because that's where it all began and that's keepin' it real. But then there are those who just won't go there and won't even hear the difference between a high quality Deep Funk band with worldwide respect and some local amateurs trying to Funk in the bar around the block ... that's exactly the problem when folks believe that anyone can play raw Funk. It sounds so easy, doesn't it? But for some reason, so few get it right ...

Well now, this is turning into quite an interesting thread
[Edited 5/5/08 21:16pm]

Funny, I think synth brass sounds way much more rawer than a full horn section. In fact, I don't think the modern listener really even registers the synth brass sounds anymore as "brass". Especially in 80s funk the vibrato and other effects used on it just made it an autonomic synthesizer element that you couldn't compare any acoustic instrument to.

I've given Osaka Monaurail a few listens over the last couple of months, inspired by the references made on this very forum to the group. My view is that it's cool and charming and that such groups exist (especially coming from Japan), but from the records I listened to I don't myself hear much personal fire at all in the performances. It's not just a couple of guys in a garage jamming with a Mu-Tron bass and a beat-up Moog Source, which in my mind is the only truly inspired way to go if you want to make "funk" music still in 2008. You just do it because you love the music and acquiring a big backup band really isn't even one of your realistic aspirations.

Plus the strong accent of the vocalist in Osaka Monaurail puts me off as a listener on a constant basis (much like what's the case with Jimi Tenor's material). The voice just sort of pointlessly lilts there and doesn't complement the music in any real way that would be essential to the form. It's sort of comical when he goes into those James Brown screams, because the shift from the Japanese type of accentuation to the wild scream - which he pulls off quite well though - is quite drastic.

But I'd still thumbs up to the group nevertheless, and the existence of many type of funk bands that are all considered "retro" already should be a giweaway of funk's developing nature on its own (say, both Chromeo and Osaka Monaurail are definitely retro groups - yet obviously they sound hardly anything alike). That just implies funk music really has a long, sprawling history. Just like rock'n'roll.
[Edited 5/6/08 2:03am]

BlaqueKnight said:

I think you misunderstood me. Of course Funk was born in America. But what I meant to say is that today, Funk in America is undervalued. America's Funk scene today is very small compared to the scenes in Europe for Japan. I explained this earlier ... there are hardly any clubs here in the States that are entirely dedicated to oldschool Funk. There are very few record labels focused on that sound. And I hate to break it to you, oldschool Funk is most popular among white college kids and the underground Hop Hop scene. I DJ all over the States, and the ratio black/white is pretty clear (other DJs share the same experience and we discuss it all the time).

I've played a few big clubs before which aim entirely on the African-American audience, and they were not into the oldschool sound at all. They wouldn't go further than Zapp and Rick James. And that's exactly what we've discussed before on this thread - pre-1975 Funk is not popular at all here.

Japan is musically behind when it comes to innovation. But definitely not in regards to keeping the old sound alive.

novabrkr said:

You know, I agree to a certain extend. Monaurail's records are techincally brilliant (definitely way more advanced than the garage level you reduce them to), because the skill of the musicians and the tightness is superb. But the records don't do their live shows justice. The live shows are extremely powerful. I've toured with the guys a lot and everywhere we go, we encounter some sceptics. Once the band hits, it's all over.

And you're right, it's not about a "big back up band". But a large band can give you a certain sound. Listen to the James Brown Band 1969 and listen to the four-piece Meters. Both amazing. Both different sounds.

MrSoulpower said:

Well, I actually meant that the retro synth funk groups would go into that garage / bedroom -category, not bigger show bands with horns like Osaka Monorail, The Soul Investigators and so on.



I don't doubt that.

I also for the first time listened to The Poets of Rhythm. Pretty nice in overall. It's not just that they use the instrumentation of the old stuff, the band also seems to use much of the recording methods of the same era. That's quite rare.
[Edited 5/6/08 10:14am]

MrSoulpower said:

You're right, I misunderstood you. My bad. As to the crowds, I'm well aware of the crowd old school funk is popular with. I also agree, pre-1975 funk is not as popular in these parts. That being said, I personally find new funk more interesting. I grew up in the funk era and I love to hear people do something new with an old vibe. We are living in a time where there has never been so many musical tools at our disposal. There's no reason not to use them to make funky tracks. Instead, many people use them as a crutch. I love the old instrumentation, too but I believe that people should make use of what's available to them. That's what makes Prince's work interesting. He uses the tools available (or at least he used to) to build a new sound from an old vibe.

FuNkeNsteiN said:

I like discussions like this

novabrkr said:

Pretty much all the bands I have listed don't record digitally. The Poets have recorded their first album Practice what you preach (released in 1993 on Soulciety Record - it easily pulls more than $100 on Ebay these days) with only two room mikes, like most deep Funk bands did back in the day.

Osaka Monaurail even use the same backline as the J.B.'s in 1971 - Vox amps and drums, the same guitars and bass, no monitors in front of the stage.

BlaqueKnight said:

The problem is that these experiments usually go wrong. As I wrote before, Funk is called Funk for a reason. Because it's raw, earthy and dirty. Most artists who try to tune it up to the 21st century fail. I think Roy Hargrove did a pretty good job on the album I posted above, but check out Maceo ... he sounds dull and unsinpired today compared to the All the King's Men albums he did in the early 70s.

You are absolutely right about funk groups from the early 1970s having an extremely large white college kid crowd. I think a lot of them are exploring the songs they have heard sampled for years in all these shit hop songs that they listen to. It's kind of like a "exploring another culture" or learning experience to a lot of them.

I know I saw a Parliament concert on the BET Jazz channel and that entire audience was white college kids. You know Parliament has been sampled the hell out of by these rappers for years. That particular concert was dull as hell. It just wasn't very lively. The band had slowed the tempo on all the songs down to about half the speed of the way the songs were originally recorded. Then they drug each song out to 15 minutes long with all these solos. Hell, they even had rappers in the show. And George Clinton himself sounded horrible. They sounded like a stage full of old folks that just couldn't keep up with the pace they used to have. And those white college kids were eating that stuff up and loving.

It's not like that when the late 70s/early 80s funk groups perform live these days. Their audience is 99% black and the only white people in the audience is the cool ones that was into the stuff back when it was recorded or maybe a few that got drunk and hung around after a white act finished performing before them (the outdoor festival type concerts with various acts). I've seen many of the funk groups at these type festivals ranging from The Barkays, Lakeside, Con Funk Shun, and The SOS Band and each of them keep the tempo just as fast and funky as it was originally recorded. The show is full of energy and the audience is full of energy as well shaking ass and hollering. It's a total different scene from what I've seen at concerts featuring an early 70s funk group.




I remember back in the late 1980s when all these rap artists were sampling the hell out of James Brown and a lot of early 70s funk groups. Their music was also much slower than earlier years and sounded more stripped down. That's when I stopped liking rap. I was into rap more in the early 80s when the rap artists were making original music of their own and kept it fast and funky. People like to dismiss the type of rap I like and label it as electro but there was no such term as electro when it was first recorded. It was called rap just like the slower stuff later was called rap.

Yeah, shit hop has gotten a lot of young people into going back and discovering funk but they are mainly going back and discovering what they have heard sampled to death. They are also used to that slow tempo that the rap artists having raised them on and refuse to check out anything faster and love to label the faster stuff as disco. Actually, there's nothing wrong with disco though but they come from a shit hop generation that is very homophobic so anything fun, fast, or entertaining is supposedly "gay". They remind me of a lot of white people that hated disco back in the day due to racist reasons.



I'm fine with mainstream as long it is mainstream R&B and not pop. There is not huge money to be made from selling to an R&B crowd only so a lot of them surely loved the music they made. I see late 70s and early 80s funk as funk simply progressing and changing with the times. It should have been able to progress and change even more with the times in the late 1980s but people were too busy trying to go after a pop/rock crowd that they watered down and "whitened" the funk.

vainandy said:[quote
You are absolutely right about funk groups from the early 1970s having an extremely large white college kid crowd. I think a lot of them are exploring the songs they have heard sampled for years in all these shit hop songs that they listen to. It's kind of like a "exploring another culture" or learning experience to a lot of them.

Agreed. But the Funk culture was underground even back in the 1970s, so why should only white folks go ahead and explore it? Don't get me wrong, there are many hip black folks in today's Funk scene, but the ratio isn't right. I actually think that oldschool Funk today attracts more white kids because many white kids grow up on Punk Rock. Funk and Punk Rock have the same concept - both styles are rebellious, dirty, fast, noisy. Modern R&B however is mostly clean-cut, which is why many people from R&B clubs can't relate to Funk. It's sad, but I had my worst DJ experiences playing in R&B clubs in L.A.

I know I saw a Parliament concert on the BET Jazz channel and that entire audience was white college kids. You know Parliament has been sampled the hell out of by these rappers for years. That particular concert was dull as hell. It just wasn't very lively. The band had slowed the tempo on all the songs down to about half the speed of the way the songs were originally recorded. Then they drug each song out to 15 minutes long with all these solos. Hell, they even had rappers in the show. And George Clinton himself sounded horrible. They sounded like a stage full of old folks that just couldn't keep up with the pace they used to have. And those white college kids were eating that stuff up and loving.

I'm really no into the Parliament/Funkadelic thing, so I can relate.

It's not like that when the late 70s/early 80s funk groups perform live these days. Their audience is 99% black and the only white people in the audience is the cool ones that was into the stuff back when it was recorded or maybe a few that got drunk and hung around after a white act finished performing before them (the outdoor festival type concerts with various acts). I've seen many of the funk groups at these type festivals ranging from The Barkays, Lakeside, Con Funk Shun, and The SOS Band and each of them keep the tempo just as fast and funky as it was originally recorded. The show is full of energy and the audience is full of energy as well shaking ass and hollering. It's a total different scene from what I've seen at concerts featuring an early 70s funk group.

The problem with many of these groups is that they reduce their repertoires to their hits. I used to promote shows myself, and I had a major conflict with Kool & The Gang, because they didn't want to play their pre-1977 material. But that's what my crowd wanted to hear. EW&F are the same. There are some oldschool bands who still got it, ConFunkShun, Ohio Players and Brass Construction among them. But all these bands perform their later material. When you hear ConFunkShun do Mr Tamborine, please let me know.

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[Edited 5/8/08 8:02am]