FuNkeNsteiN said:

I like Kanye. I like quality Hip Hop, not shit hop


But I still disdain Timbaland. I'm embarrased that we're from the same area

Shooting and violence is to be expected at any shit hop event. Hell, it's so dull they have to entertain themselves some kind of way. And if I was forced to be in a room and listen to that shit, I'd be fighting mad too.

vainandy said:

What's up Bill?....lol

Rudy and Vanessa are in bed asleep. Theo is on a date with some slut. Denise moved in with Lenny Kravitz. Claire is out of town so I'm going out to find a man.

vainandy said:

Fucking LOL!!!!!

U rap apologists are funny. Fuck rap.

Damn right. Fuck it with a herpes infested, AIDS ridden, mule dick.

Graycap23 said:

HOW DARE YOU!?

There's nothing more genius than talking over someone else's hit song while patting yourself on the back and acting hard.

How can you not respect all the hard work these people put into making money off other people's work and embarrassing every single....nevermind

Graycap23 said:

Oh don't get it twisted....I just think if you are going to shit on any genre of music, do it right...lol

Dance said:

Living in the '90s...lol...The same guy that thinks Jay Z stumbles across the stage smoking weed....get your insults right....

Graycap23 said:

That's right!


That's why I listen to hip hop

Duggs said:

I'm sorry but that was a really stupid thing to say.

this is one of the dumbest threads in history, assuming that violence doesn't happen in other genres of music. even when cinnie pointed out to you that it wasnt a hip-hop show, you dispersed the blame on the article, even though you posted the thread. i guess us rap aplogists should just forget that any Woodstock ever happened, or Guns'n'Roses show, or punk rock show...but what can you expect from someone who thinks tattoos on basketball players is some new trend, leading to the end of civilization as we know it.

TheBoyfromtheBand said:

lol.....

More likey 2 be shot at:
A: Disney show?
B: Pop Show?
C: Rap Show?

Answer: OBVIOUS.

Graycap23 said:

B) Pop show....lol


BTW, check out this article about how tough it is for rap acts to put on hip hop concerts (events) not because of violence, but because hip hop acts today don't have a real connection on the live format as they had in the past (with the exception of Jay and Kanye)...Check out the bold print...Now, this is a story you can make a point on....And Cap, keep in mind, I'm not balking at your criticisms on rap...I've got my own problems with the genre today...HUGE PROBLEMS...Starting with the fact that it has been artistically bankrupt for a minute....But if we are going to talk about hip hop, let's at least have an intelligent level headed discussion....(instead of naming a pop show and a Disney show in a multiple choice and inexplicably leaving out metal, country, soccer matches ect, ect...)



Contra Costa Times (Walnut Creek, California)
Distributed by McClatchy-Tribune Business News
April 14, 2008 Monday

Does hip-hop get a bad rap when it comes to concert sales?

BYLINE: Jim Harrington, Contra Costa Times, Walnut Creek, Calif.


Apr. 14--The scene was striking in its incongruity.

There was Nelly, the St. Louis rapper who was dominating the Billboard charts, standing onstage at the Shoreline Amphitheatre in Mountain View back in 2002. It was, in many regards, Nelly's year. His sophomore disc, "Nellyville," had debuted at No. 1 and was well on its way to selling a mind-blowing 6 million copies. His single "Hot in Herre" was the club anthem of the year, and radio stations across the country seemed to be bumping it every hour on the hour.

Yet that couldn't translate to a sell-out crowd in one of the top markets for hip-hop in the country. Touring as part of a package with Big Tymers, Fabolous and Lil' Wayne, Nelly was only able to fill roughly a third of the building -- just a smidge over 7,000 tickets -- meaning the 22,000-capacity Shoreline looked ridiculously empty as Nelly rapped his way through his chart-topping hits.

Truth is, given major label hip-hop's track record at arenas and amphitheaters, promoters were probably lucky to get that many fans into the building. Nelly's Shoreline show was hardly an isolated case of a mega-rapper failing to fill the house. In fact, for much of rap's history, including its dominant days of the late '90s and early 2000s, that's been pretty much the norm.

As we prepare for the biggest weekend of hip-hop local fans will see all year -- Kanye West leads an all-star lineup into Arco Arena in Sacramento on Friday and the

HP Pavilion on Saturday, and then Jay-Z teams up with Mary J. Blige at the Oracle Arena in Oakland on April 20 -- it raises a question for which there seems to be no succinct answer: Why doesn't hip-hop perform better at the concert gate?

Hit CD not the ticket

Even though rap seems a few years past its glory days, you're still likely to see several hip-hop artists on the latest Billboard album charts. Then take a look at the Pollstar Top 50, which counts up the biggest money-makers currently on tour, and you'll notice quite a different story.

"I look at our Top 50 tours and there's almost nothing on there but rock 'n' roll and country," says Gary Bongiovanni, editor-in-chief of the concert industry trade publication Pollstar. "In general, rap/hip-hop tours don't do near the business that you'd expect based on record sales. That's just across the board."

That's not a recent trend or even a trend at all. The genre never seems to post the type of concert revenues that live up to its record sales. It seems to be the opposite of the rock world, where so many big names (the Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Elton John, etc.) do far better at the concert gate than on the album charts.

To illustrate, scan the numbers from the first part of this decade, when rap was experiencing some banner years. In 2003, two of the year's top 10 selling albums belonged to rappers, including 50 Cent, who came in at No. 1 with "Get Rich or Die Tryin.'" In 2004, three hip-hop stars placed among the year-end top 10 sellers. The following year, it was the same story.

But over the same three-year time period, there wasn't a hip-hop star who finished among the top 10 in the concert industry.That says plenty about where the emphasis lies in each genre.

"The rock experience is all about the live show," says Rick Mueller, president of Live Nation Northern California. "I'm guessing if you took a poll, (people would say) the hip-hop experience is all about the CD."

Things have only gotten worse for the rap concert industry in recent years, as major players such as Eminem and (at least temporarily) Jay-Z dropped out of the game. The gap between a hip-hop artist's ability to sell records and to move tickets, according to Bongiovanni, "just seems to keep widening -- ridiculously."

In 2006 and 2007, there was relatively little news about rappers embarking on major tours. That's due in large part to the lack of hip-hoppers who can actually command arena dates.

"There are very few," agrees Rob Evans, editor of the Ticketmaster-owned tour news Web site LiveDaily.com. "I don't know if I'd even put the Beastie Boys in that category any more. (Hip-hop tours) have sort of dropped off the radar. You've got the Roots, who can sell out any theater in the country. But take it up a notch (in terms of venue size), and who do you have?"

The guys in suits, the ones whose year-end bonuses are determined by the relative health of the rap economy, like to say that hip-hop's failure at the box office can be attributed to an overall decline in sales in the music industry. Other insiders suggest other theories.

"I say that a lot of it has to do with substandard product," says Bay Area hip-hop journalist Davey D.
Making a connection

Davey D has a little game that he likes to play with people: He finds a hip-hop fan and asks him or her to name a recent hit album. He then asks that person to name more than three songs off that record.

"Most people can't do it," he reports. "But if I ask them to name all the songs off Wu-Tang's '36 Chambers,' there are people who can do it."
Davey D gets similarly knowledgeable responses when he asks folks about a classic Tupac disc or Public Enemy's sophomore outing, 1988's "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back."

"That's an indication that there is an emotional connection that those artists made with their fans," he says. "And a lot of them did it with touring."
Yet hip-hop artists, at least those signed to major labels, have been reluctant to tour. And label execs have been shy about sending their artists out on the road, perhaps afraid that the rappers will play to half-full houses and the tours will lose money.

Thus, the hip-hop industry currently finds itself in a classic Catch-22 situation. Everyone would like these artists to play for big crowds, but are hesitant to invest what it takes to build a sizable audience. "There are very few acts of any genre, who, if they are not working the road continually, can fill up a building," Evans says. "Whereas acts that have sort of lived on the road, like the Roots and Spearhead, they can sell out."

Indeed, as Davey D points out, rap has two divisions. There are the major label rappers, who shun the typical tour circuit in favor of other means of promotion, and there are the independent cats, who understand that playing concerts is one avenue to success. That latter group includes the Roots and Spearhead, as well as such local acts as Lyrics Born and the Coup. Not coincidentally, those road warriors tend to be some of the best-reviewed live acts in all of hip-hop.

"Independent artists do 40-50 dates a year and do quite well," Davey D says. "You see Boots (Riley) and the Coup, and some of the other artists who don't get regular airplay, and they're killing it in concert. They clearly understand that the best way to make a connection with their fan base is to tour."
Not everyone, obviously, would agree with that theory.

Video killed the concert star

The standing operating procedure for breaking a new rap star, and building a fan base, has very little to do with touring. It's built on getting airplay, which means playing 15-minute sets at multi-act radio-station-sponsored events, and pouring lots of money into making videos.

During hip-hop's salad days, there was no reason to argue against that process. Overnight rap sensations were moving millions of units, watching themselves on TV and flying around the country in fancy jets. Yet there's a downside to such a quickly built foundation.

"It can put you in a space that you think you don't really have to worry about performing," Davey D says. "BET, MTV videos are the important thing -- millions see you and it goes to your head."

But these rappers often find themselves replaced by the next hot new thing, with the next hot new single, and if they want a seat on a jet, they'd better have an airline ticket.

"I think that's really the problem that the hip-hop artists face -- that they are commodities, and disposable ones at that," says Davey D.

Hip-hop, perhaps more than any other genre, is fueled by one-hit wonders. Some artists achieve that ranking by accident, while others seem to be molded into a perfect fit. But when that song has run its course on radio and the charts, a label has no further use for the artist. Thus, a label isn't going to pour a lot of money into developing hip-hop artists.

"Soulja Boy is not going to get a major tour," says Marcus Reeves, author of the newly released book "Somebody Scream! Rap Music's Rise to Prominence in the Aftershock of Black Power." Reeves says he understands why so many young hip-hop artists have been reluctant to tour over the years -- it was a money thing, and the quick fix came with signing a record deal, not from months spent out on the road. Thus, the emphasis has traditionally been on polishing up the mixtape instead of honing the live show. That strategy worked as long as record execs were willing to throw handfuls of cash at prospects, but, as Reeves points out, "those days are over."

Positive tip

There are some indicators that things could improve for the hip-hop concert industry. For one, the touring hip-hop festival Rock the Bells drew some 50,000 locals during its stop in San Francisco last year -- although not without the help of rock-oriented headliner Rage Against the Machine.

A more pertinent case will be played out this upcoming weekend as the Bay Area hosts Kanye West and the Jay-Z/Blige juggernaut. Tickets will be hard to come by for both. Live Nation's Rick Mueller expects Jay-Z to sell out, while ducats for West's show -- featuring, among others, hot newcomer Rihanna-- are long gone.

"I've never seen a show sell out so fast," said Danielle Madeira, publicist for Another Planet Entertainment, the Berkeley-based promoter hosting West's gig in San Jose.

West is a dramatic exception in the live hip-hop business. Although his last visit to the HP Pavilion in 2005 filled only half the house, he's continued to build his audience, and has become known as the rare hip-hopper who embraces the same type of pricey stage theatrics as the Rolling Stones.

"Kanye is a showman, which I think is a trait that a lot of other hip-hop artists lack," says Pollstar's Gary Bongiovanni.

Let's say that things changed overnight and that rappers decided to start touring as frequently as Jimmy Buffett. Would that right the ship?

One possible roadblock is the perception that violence and crime are staples of the hip-hop bill. Some parents are clearly wary of sending their teens to a rap show, having heard the urban legends and a few real news stories about problems at hip-hop shows -- but how well-founded are these concerns in 2008?

"Does violence happen at some shows?" says Oliver Wang, editor of the book "Classic Material: The Hip-Hop Album Guide." "At times, sure, but violence happens at all kinds of public events, and it's rare that you've seen the same level of whipped-up hysteria."

The concert industry has really upped its efforts to ensure public safety. The scene at a hip-hop show today is vastly different than what one would have found even five years ago. Plus, the lyrical content has changed dramatically (with Glock-toting gangsta rap now out of favor).

"There have been relatively few problems at major hip-hop shows," says LiveDaily's Evans. "I think (the violence factor) is more of a perception than reality."

That perception, however, is not what's keeping promoters from booking hip-hop acts, Evans says. It's the perception that most rappers won't draw at the gate.

"Concert promoters are in it to make money," he says. "If they thought they could make it with hip-hop shows, there would be more major hip-hop shows.
[Edited 4/20/08 9:37am]

2Jay said:

Please, post the lyrics to the "star spangled banner", and then post the lyrics to the Black national anthem "lift every voice and sing" and u will see my point.

Any violence in this country is the American Way. If it makes you feel safe to blame it on Hip Hop then do u.

abierman said:

we were talking about your comment "im sorry the stats speak for themselves" stats are misleading was my only point.

I have friends and family that have been shot and stabbed at these rap-events.

Heavy Metal, and country music just to name a few have voilence in their music and during there live events just like hip hop. Only difference is when hill billies act a fool its not on the 11 o clock news.

phunkdaddy said:

Dude, the roots does NOT draw that type of crowd. For the past two years I've gone to every Roots concert at this small venue called the Norva located in Downtown Norfolk, VA (which is a place that u can reasonably expect a problem at a hiphop show) and there has been NO VIOLENCE or even a argument. bboy, if ur from the part of VA that I think ur from u know what I mean.

Go to the show and have a damn good time. I know I'm never disappointed
[Edited 4/20/08 10:13am]

PurpleRighteous1 said:

Yep. I'm originally from Hampton there's never really any violence issues.

It's not about the genre. It's about the type of audience the performer draws. You're probably not gonna see a riot break out at a Kanye, Common, Roots, Lupe Fiasco, or Gnarls Barkley concert but there's a 60% chance it's gonna happen at a Lil Wayne, 50 Cent, Jay Z, or mainstream rap artist's show

bboy87 said:

To me it depends on the venue you are performing in and not the genre of music...If you are performing in an area that has a history of crime, then yes, the chances of violence is high.. Hell, there wasn't even any violence during that huge Jay Z tour ten years ago (The Hardknock Life tour which had some hardcore acts on it like DMX, Method Man and Redman...)...

Genre of music has little to do with it...

Out here near San Francisco there were news reports a few years back of a concert gone wild. People afterwards were doing donuts on the freeway, going the wrong direction thought the one-way tunnels, generally being idiots.

Turned out it was an Usher concert!

NDRU said:

Not only the Usher concert, but that Bow Wow/B2K/Mario/Chingy concert back in 2002! Hell, somebody robbed Mario AND Chingy that night!

The Oakland Arena has a strong history of shit like that. I remember back in 1999, The Cash Money Millionaires had a concert and it got so out of hand, they went on the radio and said they'll never perform in Oakland again.

And they haven't

bboy87 said:

good for Oakland! We got rid of Cash Money! The Usher concert was in Concord, though. That's like a riot at John Tesh playing Red Rocks!

NDRU said:

The Concord Pavillion is always boring.....but that KMEL summer jam was crazy. The heat had people passing out and then they had to endure that "comeback" performance of Jodeci

Graycap23 said:

well, if u can buy guns,,,shit happens....

PurpleRighteous1 said:

Exactly. A band like The Roots doesn't draw that kind of violence. In fact, I encourage everyone here whether you're a fan of Hip-Hop or not, to go see them in concert at least once in your life. They're one of THE BEST LIVE BANDS OUT THERE PERIOD! And they blend all kinds of music into their funky Hip-Hop sound. They're amazing.

And the folks here are right. It's very likely that you'll see more violence at a concert by a mainstream or Gangsta Hip-Hop artist. A lot of the times their audience is made up of (sorry to say this but) ghetto ass people that don't act like they got any sense. I remember there was a free concert here in Harlem in the 90's with the Fugees and some other acts. But it got cut short because some stupid asses decided to throw their guns in the air and buck buck like they just don't care. But acts like The Roots, De La Soul, Outkast(when they used to tour), Madlib, Beastie Boys, KRS-One, yada yada yada don't really attract that sort of attention.

But you can't just single out Hip-Hop concerts as the only place you'll experience violence or hostility. There's always a share of assholes at concerts of most kinds. You probably won't see it too much at Jazz or Blues concerts, but more like Rock, Punk, Hip-Hop, Metal, Alternative, etc. And someone here did make a good point by mentioning Woodstock. Look what happened at that festival back in 1999, and they were showcasing all kinds of music.

I always try to avoid any hostility at any concert I go to. But it's almost inescapable that you're gonna find a few bad apples in the bunch. That's just how some people are. It's just that because Hip-Hop has a stigma of violence that often reflects the content of the artist. And with that you're often gonna attract that kind of audience. Thus often ensuing a "nigga moment". (http://www.youtube.com/wa...Qzh-IXFQRQ)

Another thing: I will defend to the death the great artists like The Roots, Beastie Boys, The Coup, De La Soul, and Outkast that are making Hip-Hop the brilliant art form that it is. All for you conservative old fogies and Funk elitist snobs that have failed to see that they're the next generation of Soul and Funk, well that's just your problem.

Duggs said:

-----
Guns don't kill, ppl kill. And the violence that's goes on is a reflection of AMERICAN culture not Hip Hop.

Whatever dude. You do not hear about people whipping out guns at rock shows. I have attended rock, hip-hop and RnB shows. When ganster rap came on the scence you started getting a thug crowd coming out to the shows. I remeber being a teenager and seeing a real big difference in the crowds at concerts depending on the music.