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Forums > Music: Non-Prince > If you thought Auto-tune made singers and musicians "lazy", then check this out!
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Thread started 03/16/08 5:03pm

purplehippieon
the1

If you thought Auto-tune made singers and musicians "lazy", then check this out!

Of course the auto-tune technology has been around for a while, making it possible to correct "bad" notes in a recording. But until now, it hasn't been possible to, for example, correct a mistake when a guitarist is playing a minor chord instead of a major chord in a take.
But now the guitarist doesn't have to record the track again nor does he have to "punch in" the right note. Now there is software coming out that enables you to isolate each note in a polyphonic soundwave (=chord) and change it to taste. In the video link below they even show how they change the scale in a classical guitar song from a minor to a major and then to some exotic scale!

My question is: how will this affect the already lazy young bands and singers that already rely too heavily on click-tracks and auto-tune?
Video demonstration here: http://www.celemony.com/c...id=dna&L=0
[Edited 3/16/08 17:06pm]
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Reply #1 posted 03/16/08 5:13pm

qvgangsta18

fuck this, i need this shit now i can get in the industry and get so much pussy, i wouldn't know wut to do with myself.

yo when this shit drop
[Edited 3/16/08 17:14pm]
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Reply #2 posted 03/16/08 5:37pm

sosgemini

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god, now im depressed.
Space for sale...
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Reply #3 posted 03/16/08 5:39pm

MsLegs

sosgemini said:

god, now im depressed.

shake That's not good.
[Edited 3/16/08 17:39pm]
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Reply #4 posted 03/16/08 5:54pm

728huey

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Great, now there's no reason for talentless hacks to learn how to play a musical instrument; they can just cut, paste, and program a song instead of composing one.

Actually, while I could see this being used heavily in musical scores for film and television, I don't think it would necessarily catch on in all forms of popular music. Some of the whole rawness and edginess in rock, metal, and some forms of hip-hop come from the deliberate distortion in the recorded tracks.

typing
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Reply #5 posted 03/16/08 7:29pm

TonyVanDam

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purplehippieonthe1 said:

Of course the auto-tune technology has been around for a while, making it possible to correct "bad" notes in a recording. But until now, it hasn't been possible to, for example, correct a mistake when a guitarist is playing a minor chord instead of a major chord in a take.
But now the guitarist doesn't have to record the track again nor does he have to "punch in" the right note. Now there is software coming out that enables you to isolate each note in a polyphonic soundwave (=chord) and change it to taste. In the video link below they even show how they change the scale in a classical guitar song from a minor to a major and then to some exotic scale!

My question is: how will this affect the already lazy young bands and singers that already rely too heavily on click-tracks and auto-tune?
Video demonstration here: http://www.celemony.com/c...id=dna&L=0
[Edited 3/16/08 17:06pm]


You're late. That software was out almost 2 years ago.
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Reply #6 posted 03/16/08 7:39pm

purplehippieon
the1

TonyVanDam said:

purplehippieonthe1 said:

Of course the auto-tune technology has been around for a while, making it possible to correct "bad" notes in a recording. But until now, it hasn't been possible to, for example, correct a mistake when a guitarist is playing a minor chord instead of a major chord in a take.
But now the guitarist doesn't have to record the track again nor does he have to "punch in" the right note. Now there is software coming out that enables you to isolate each note in a polyphonic soundwave (=chord) and change it to taste. In the video link below they even show how they change the scale in a classical guitar song from a minor to a major and then to some exotic scale!

My question is: how will this affect the already lazy young bands and singers that already rely too heavily on click-tracks and auto-tune?
Video demonstration here: http://www.celemony.com/c...id=dna&L=0
[Edited 3/16/08 17:06pm]


You're late. That software was out almost 2 years ago.

The current version only corrects single notes, not notes within chords. The polyphonic version will be released next Autumn. This is at least the first time I've ever heard of this kind of feature in any audio software. Of course there might be some other software company with this technology already, but like I said, I haven't heard of it. Do you know of any plugin on the market NOW that has this feature to extract notes from RECORDED chords (not MIDI) and manipulate them?
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Reply #7 posted 03/16/08 7:43pm

Cinnie

qvgangsta18 said:

fuck this, i need this shit now i can get in the industry and get so much pussy, i wouldn't know wut to do with myself.

yo when this shit drop


evillol
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Reply #8 posted 03/16/08 7:48pm

Cinnie

So instead of correcting a single singer, they can go back and correct those Total albums.

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Reply #9 posted 03/16/08 8:37pm

bboy87

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Cinnie said:

So instead of correcting a single singer, they can go back and correct those Total albums.


OWNED!! lol
"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
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Reply #10 posted 03/16/08 8:47pm

RodeoSchro

I guess the first thing we need to do to get the quality of music back to where is should be is to destroy all the Auto-Tune machines.
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Reply #11 posted 03/16/08 9:12pm

Brendan

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Too bad there's nothing on the horizon that'll auto-tune the cynicism. wink
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Reply #12 posted 03/16/08 9:19pm

RodeoSchro

Brendan said:

Too bad there's nothing on the horizon that'll auto-tune the cynicism. wink


Well, talent would help but I don't see much out there today.
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Reply #13 posted 03/16/08 9:27pm

alphastreet

wow that is horrible!!!! And so unnatural!!! Majors and minors are a determinant in a song's mood, and it's going to sound soooo fake when they do that! I've had perfect pitch from a young age and get upset with people who can't get the right chords.
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Reply #14 posted 03/16/08 10:08pm

BlaqueKnight

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Is there anybody on this board under 65? I swear you guys bitch about technology that only a few of us on here seem to truly understand. You think this is going to make that much of a difference? The problem is not technology but the whole "fast food" attitude of our culture. Prince has used harmonizers and pitch correction in the studio and done some very impressive things with them. It doesn't matter if it fixes one note or the notes in a chord. Its HOW YOU USE IT. Also look at it this way. Since Melodyne is composer's software, direct note access is a godsend to composers who have to hire orchestras to do scoring. Do any of you have any idea how expensive that is? I bet most of you don't. This software can allow a composer to fix a misplayed part in a symphonic composition whereas in the past, it would either have to be re-recorded or cut from the piece if retakes are not in the budget. Will it be misused? Of course. The splitting of atoms was misused to make atomic weapons. There's nothing that can be done about that. Stop trying to demonize the technology like a bunch of Amish. Shit changes. Deal with it.
[Edited 3/16/08 22:22pm]
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Reply #15 posted 03/16/08 10:23pm

novabrkr

Autotune really won't make anyone sing better, and people are actually using it less and less because of the too recognizable artefacts it tends to produce. You still need to have a recordable voice, and always select the material to suit the vocalist's range. The thing with the autotuned-up vocalists, like Britney and Fred Durst, is just that they actually do have voices that are easier to record than a lot of those by "real singers'", who just oversing and really don't care whether their vocals can be actually mixed into the music or not.

As for this piece of software, I really don't see any serious "cheating" factor involved. It's just as "technically demanding" to play a minor chord as it is to play a major chord, it's not a big deal.
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Reply #16 posted 03/16/08 11:29pm

BlaqueKnight

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Through personal experience, I can attest to the fact that many times its much easier to replay something than it is to fix it digitally. The time it takes to punch in a phrase in real time is much faster. This kind of software is probably going to be far more useful in applications like the one I mentioned earlier than in standard pop music. Of course people WILL use it for lazy vocalists. As long as people keep buying McMusic, people will keep making it.
Its funny because when the multi-track recorders became popular, the same "cheating" argument was made.
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Reply #17 posted 03/17/08 1:07am

TonyVanDam

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purplehippieonthe1 said:

TonyVanDam said:



You're late. That software was out almost 2 years ago.

The current version only corrects single notes, not notes within chords. The polyphonic version will be released next Autumn. This is at least the first time I've ever heard of this kind of feature in any audio software. Of course there might be some other software company with this technology already, but like I said, I haven't heard of it. Do you know of any plugin on the market NOW that has this feature to extract notes from RECORDED chords (not MIDI) and manipulate them?


Until now, the only other option would have been a audio editor software like Audacity. It's easy to use to manipulate audio sounds, but pretty time consuming.
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Reply #18 posted 03/17/08 2:13am

Volitan

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The benefit I see from it, is you could do cool chords that would be otherwise impossible to finger on guitar, like an Am but with an 8th fret on the D string
Maybe we can go to the movies and cry together
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Reply #19 posted 03/17/08 3:27am

TANKAEFC

Listen, buddy, whether you're copying or pasting sounds together, or playing them on an instrument, it's the same damn sound.

728huey said:

Great, now there's no reason for talentless hacks to learn how to play a musical instrument; they can just cut, paste, and program a song instead of composing one.

Actually, while I could see this being used heavily in musical scores for film and television, I don't think it would necessarily catch on in all forms of popular music. Some of the whole rawness and edginess in rock, metal, and some forms of hip-hop come from the deliberate distortion in the recorded tracks.

typing
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Reply #20 posted 03/17/08 3:41am

TANKAEFC

In Star Trek TNG, there is an episode where the crew visits a planet with a civilization that has evolved enough to be able to make music just by tuning in to their heart. There is a scene in this episode where a child puts his hands on a dome-like object, and concentrates on what melody is in his heart.

Why I'm bringing this up is that no matter what, each time music comes up, some kind of instrument is getting played. Why should it matter if the instrument is a computer or even one's intuition? Just like any instrument, a loop click computer program requires skill - it's just a different kind.
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Reply #21 posted 03/17/08 7:24am

RodeoSchro

TANKAEFC said:

In Star Trek TNG, there is an episode where the crew visits a planet with a civilization that has evolved enough to be able to make music just by tuning in to their heart. There is a scene in this episode where a child puts his hands on a dome-like object, and concentrates on what melody is in his heart.

Why I'm bringing this up is that no matter what, each time music comes up, some kind of instrument is getting played. Why should it matter if the instrument is a computer or even one's intuition? Just like any instrument, a loop click computer program requires skill - it's just a different kind.


Because if one can't PLAY music, one will never WRITE good songs.

Also, if one can't PLAY music, the concert industry will die.
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Reply #22 posted 03/17/08 7:41am

MsLegs

BlaqueKnight said:

Through personal experience, I can attest to the fact that many times its much easier to replay something than it is to fix it digitally. The time it takes to punch in a phrase in real time is much faster. This kind of software is probably going to be far more useful in applications like the one I mentioned earlier than in standard pop music. Of course people WILL use it for lazy vocalists. As long as people keep buying McMusic, people will keep making it.
Its funny because when the multi-track recorders became popular, the same "cheating" argument was made.

nod Valid point.
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Reply #23 posted 03/17/08 10:57am

BlaqueKnight

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Volitan said:

The benefit I see from it, is you could do cool chords that would be otherwise impossible to finger on guitar, like an Am but with an 8th fret on the D string


You can do that if you tap the note with the right pointer finger and strum the chord with the ring finger. Where ther's a will, there's a way.
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Reply #24 posted 03/17/08 3:41pm

TANKAEFC

Good God, you missed the point (but so do most orgers, where this subject is concerned) - if the computer was the main instrument used, then that person plays the computer as their instrument. But even in using the computer, you still have to have skill in choosing which sounds sound good together and which does not. Good is a very subjective term, to begin with, but let me ask you a question: if the scenario I described became reality, and children all across the world were able to communicate this way, then wouldn't that be a good thing, not only for the children but for the planet? Maybe if children could communicate using computers or devices, then their minds might not stay obsessed with what they see on TV and in the real world.

RodeoSchro said:

TANKAEFC said:

In Star Trek TNG, there is an episode where the crew visits a planet with a civilization that has evolved enough to be able to make music just by tuning in to their heart. There is a scene in this episode where a child puts his hands on a dome-like object, and concentrates on what melody is in his heart.

Why I'm bringing this up is that no matter what, each time music comes up, some kind of instrument is getting played. Why should it matter if the instrument is a computer or even one's intuition? Just like any instrument, a loop click computer program requires skill - it's just a different kind.


Because if one can't PLAY music, one will never WRITE good songs.

Also, if one can't PLAY music, the concert industry will die.
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Reply #25 posted 03/17/08 4:37pm

BlaqueKnight

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Well, before we get all philosophical (too late?), there is still a fact that remains to be dealt with. Learning to play an instrument, a PHYSICAL instrument, builds motor skills, hand-eye cordination and stimulates a part of the brain that using a computer does not. In this day and age, lots of music is made on computers but computers have been a crutch in the industry as well. Software like DNA is more of a tool than it is an instrument. As a matter of fact, its NOT an instrument at all. I don't have it but I assume its plug-in for recording systems or stand-alone editing software independent of Melodyne. Either way, its not going to change anything that much.
Now the area in which I can foresee a problem would be when someone has someone to play a part(s) in a song, changes notes in what they played and writes them out of the song altogether. That could get ugly until someone addresses it in court.

[Edited 3/17/08 16:39pm]
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Reply #26 posted 03/17/08 4:46pm

MsLegs

BlaqueKnight said:

Well, before we get all philosophical (too late?), there is still a fact that remains to be dealt with. Learning to play an instrument, a PHYSICAL instrument, builds motor skills, hand-eye cordination and stimulates a part of the brain that using a computer does not. In this day and age, lots of music is made on computers but computers have been a crutch in the industry as well. Software like DNA is more of a tool than it is an instrument. As a matter of fact, its NOT an instrument at all. I don't have it but I assume its plug-in for recording systems or stand-alone editing software independent of Melodyne. Either way, its not going to change anything that much.
Now the area in which I can foresee a problem would be when someone has someone to play a part(s) in a song, changes notes in what they played and writes them out of the song altogether. That could get ugly until someone addresses it in court.

[Edited 3/17/08 16:39pm]

nod As always, you're dead on it. You made accurate statements on the fluency and coordination it takes to play instruments vs computers. Also, you made some brillant concise points on the copyright imfrigement issues that have been on the rise in the courts lately.
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Reply #27 posted 03/17/08 5:32pm

Cinnie

BlaqueKnight said:

Now the area in which I can foresee a problem would be when someone has someone to play a part(s) in a song, changes notes in what they played and writes them out of the song altogether. That could get ugly until someone addresses it in court.


It would be the same as sampling something and changing the pitch... you're still liable for using the "performance" or "recording", even if you put your spin on it.
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Reply #28 posted 03/17/08 6:17pm

BlaqueKnight

avatar

Cinnie said:

BlaqueKnight said:

Now the area in which I can foresee a problem would be when someone has someone to play a part(s) in a song, changes notes in what they played and writes them out of the song altogether. That could get ugly until someone addresses it in court.


It would be the same as sampling something and changing the pitch... you're still liable for using the "performance" or "recording", even if you put your spin on it.



Only if the original player of the instrument on the track can prove that they actually did that rendition of it and that the variation is just that - a variation and not a whole new musical idea. Someone like Prince could steal from a musical "guest" who is not under his employ in this manner.
Example: Steve Vai comes in, fucks around in the studio and hits a cool ass guitar riff. Prince records everything, changes a couple of notes - its not Steve's riff anymore. Prince says "Mike Scott played it". Vai says "I played it". In court, it gets ugly. That was an off the top of the dome example but there can be many scenerios.
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Reply #29 posted 03/17/08 6:25pm

Cinnie

BlaqueKnight said:

Cinnie said:



It would be the same as sampling something and changing the pitch... you're still liable for using the "performance" or "recording", even if you put your spin on it.



Only if the original player of the instrument on the track can prove that they actually did that rendition of it and that the variation is just that - a variation and not a whole new musical idea. Someone like Prince could steal from a musical "guest" who is not under his employ in this manner.
Example: Steve Vai comes in, fucks around in the studio and hits a cool ass guitar riff. Prince records everything, changes a couple of notes - its not Steve's riff anymore. Prince says "Mike Scott played it". Vai says "I played it". In court, it gets ugly. That was an off the top of the dome example but there can be many scenerios.


You could have the same case without Melodyne though.. other supporting evidence would have to support the arguments.
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Forums > Music: Non-Prince > If you thought Auto-tune made singers and musicians "lazy", then check this out!