See,this just proves what I was saying earlier.Madonna has never gotten a "pass".She's gotten way more criticism than Janet ever received.I don't know why some folks think she gets away with murder.I remember during the Sex/Erotica era,she was being bashed left and right.The critics were brutal.In 1993,I recall seeing several "Is Madonna Over?"-type articles in major magazines.The reason why she's survived the backlash is because she's extremely smart and has a strong personality.She had a tough,defiant "fuck you" attitude back then,which Janet simply doesn't have.I remember seeing Janet last year on that news interview,where they embarassed her by asking about the SuperBowl.She appeared weak,with no backbone at all.

See,this just proves what I was saying earlier.Madonna has never gotten a "pass".She's gotten way more criticism than Janet ever received.I don't know why some folks think she gets away with murder.I remember during the Sex/Erotica era,she was being bashed left and right.The critics were brutal.In 1993,I recall seeing several "Is Madonna Over?"-type articles in major magazines.The reason why she's survived the backlash is because she's extremely smart and has a strong personality.She had a tough,defiant "fuck you" attitude back then,which Janet simply doesn't have.I remember seeing Janet last year on that news interview,where they embarassed her by asking about the SuperBowl.She appeared weak,with no backbone at all.

SoulAlive said:

This will be my final "essay" on the subject because I've already addressed most of these points throughout the course of discussion on this thread.

IN SUMMATION

The difference is Madonna has been allowed to come back! Soulalive, I don't have anything against Madonna fans or Madonna herself actually. But I HONESTLY don't see that Madonna has grown that much as an artist at all. From my observation, she's doing the same thing she's always done, and making shitloads of money off it. That's her strength, really. You're talking to someone who isn't all that impressed with her in the first place. I don't get involved in any of her threads as a rule because I don't have much good to say about her. I don't play any Madonna "games" on this site. I just don't see where she's that great except for convincing her fans that she's great.. really going for more..of a sound having more worldwide appeal at the RIGHT time in her career.

A lot of Madonna's fans keep telling me how's she's changed it up and how interesting she is--much more so than Janet. However, I just don't agree. "Musically" and even image-wise I don't think Madonna has necessarily "reinvented" herself all that match. As I said about Janet, if Madonna dropped the dancers, the "theatre," and focused only on the music, now I'd be impressed by that. I'd be impressed even by her efforts; however, would she still be the same Madonna to her hard-core fans? Now to me just because Madonna shifts to "pop with a techno twist," since I don't particularly like techno and have never been a fan of "poppish" sound, well I'm not too impressed: I just don't think that's such a big "reinvention." And what has she done that's so interesting: found religion, had kids, gotten married, adopted an impoverished kid from another country, bought a lot of real estate, gotten involved in her "causes" of choice.. what else?? I do respect her efforts as a mom and a person of charity, but a lot of celebrites are good moms and have their own "causes" or even foundations. So some if not a lot of Madonna is nearly "celebrity cliché," ya know?

And not to bring-up old wounds, but when push comes to shove, I don't think she's particularly brave in the face of REAL controversy: didn't she change a video. lyrics, or something like that because she didn't want to be Dixie-chicked? Plus I recall a little that really pissed me off at the time when she said at a concert in Great Britain, something like the stupidest Brit is still smarter than any American? Well I would assume she's not including her Amerian "fans" in that statement? So.. I'm just not overly impressed. But it's fine with me if others are. I don't think she's a bad person: I just don't think she's better than Janet.

Now as I've said in the course of this thread, Janet has definitely made some very dumb, very damaging moves as a very precarious time in her career--when most would think she'd be OLD enough to know better, costing her tremendously. Janet should be embarrassed about the Super Bowl because it was a stupid, unnecessary move, and yeah she was "weak" to even go there; however, I also think the media and viewing public overreacted just tad. Given the climate of that time period, the decision to bare her breast was career suicide for Janet. But years have past and the climate has changed, so why is the press still harping on it anyway? Frankly, I think the media are baiting Janet for some quip maybe about Bush.. or the moral majority just to sell their own “story,” BUT SHE WON’T BITE, and maybe for good reason because I’m not so sure if the public would think she was all that “brave,” but more defiant? I think the public wouldn't trust her motives whatever she might say about the incident, so it might be best not to comment any further.

Now regarding personal growth, Janet has talked about being spiritual, but she hasn't harped on it. She talked about politics, but hasn't harped on it. She's talked about her various "causes." She hasn't had kids, but a lot celebs wait until their 40's to adopt or have kids. However, maybe she might not want kids, too? Would it make Janet more interesting to do what exactly besides cutting the explicitly sexual lyrics in some of her songs? Now musically, Janet is doing what she has always done in much the same way as Madonna except she hasn't taken-up the guitar of piano to give herself more cred. But for Janet,.. and now maybe even finally for Madonna from what I read in that thread--it's not working for her anymore because they BOTH risk becoming charicatures of their former selves as age takes its toll. The difference is that I'm not sure if Janet has that many hard-core fans left worldwide if she's only sold half-a million doing what she made her "famous." It might be worth a shot for her to really change it up because it can't get much worse. LOL She's REALLY going to have to do some reinventing; however, then her hard-core fans might leave, so she'd break even, so her sales might never be the same no matter what she does--as midnightmover has stated numerous times in this thread.

Finally, I know a lot of people don't agree, but I do think there is an element of racism going-on just by virtue of the entertainment business and more specifically the music business itself much less society as a whole. I think it's going to be harder for Janet to make a comeback because of all the things I've mentioned in this thread. As documented by those articles I posted, opportunities have gotten better, but still not equal in the music business as well as in Hollywood. It's very difficult for older women in more traditional pop music--much less an older or even up-and-coming young woman of color comparatively-speaking. I agree, once again, with a few people on this thread that Madonna is the exception not the rule, but I'm not convinced it's due to her talent as a "music artist." Of course, even she might as well forget about it as far as acting is concerned since she's what a white 50-year-old with not a lot of past success? But generally speaking, good roles for people of color are few and far between compared to those of whites, for example. And good roles for women of color are even fewer. Good roles for women-of-color-in-their-40's are virtually non-existent: they are nearly non-existent for white women except for Meryl Streep!

I'm not suggesting Janet is a martyr any more than any other 40+ year-old, woman of color in the business. I'm just stating the facts. So Janet definitely has her work cut-out for her on many levels.

P.S. I agree Janet could have handled the SB better, but weren't there lawsuits and stuff being filed? There could have been liability issues. Her attorneys may have advised her against being too accepting of full responsibilty. (I took responsibility for collision once.. when I friggin should have kept my mouth shut because it wasn't may fault! But I digress...)

I'll say this much: I think she was too "lenient" due to blind loyalty on people who got her into this mess in the first place.. and very NAIVE to be talked into baring her breast on national television. It's one thing to do it on MTV, and quite another on CBS, and she should have known better. Justin should have known better, ya know? Her advisors should have known better: her creative team--responsible for putting her in the best light should have known better, but I guess they all wanted to make an "impact, " at the risk of throwing her under a bus. Janet was just plain stupid to trust their judgment with their "work" nearly irreparably damaging her career to where she’s in the position of making a comeback at this stage in the game. So it might be in her best interest to rethink some of her associations because I’m not sure if they really have her best interest at heart anyway.

Suffice to say Jamie King, Barry Lather, Marty Kudelka, Tina Landon just to name a few NOBODY with any sense of professionalism or grain of intelligence would have allowed her to get into the damn mess in the first place. Do I sound bitter?

Oh.. and P.S.S. I mentioned this convo to husband--mainly concerning my comment about Bonnie Raitt. And yeah..he said there is no way Janet is on anywhere near the same level as Bonnie. But he also said, "Neither is Madonna"! LOL So there ya go.
[Edited 4/8/08 10:12am]

Isel said:

It's like u r comparing Robbie Williams 2 David Bowie.

it's really quite easy 2 summarize..:

Janet released 3 'mediocre' to 'poor' albums in a row being promoted by amateurs.

Martinelli said:

Nonsense. "Feedback" is a far better track than anything Madonna has released in years. And were Virgin amateurs when they successfully promoted her earlier albums?

midnightmover said:

No I'm saying her NEW label screwed up. Yes 4minutes is one of the worst
records of 2008 already..but 'Feedback' is hardly inspired..or better than any
of the Confessions singles.

midnightmover said:

No I'm saying her NEW label screwed up. Yes 4minutes is one of the worst
records of 2008 already..but 'Feedback' is hardly inspired..or better than any
of the Confessions singles.

Martinelli said:

its all opinion... i truely believe if janet released any of those songs 4 mins or TMB... or even a song from confessions on a dance.. it would still go NO WHERE on the charts...

TotalAlisa said:

You are correct. Def Jam did the best they could in promoting it, and the singles were better than a lot of successful junk released by other artists. Fans are looking for a scapegoat, but the truth is people are just not interested in Janet anymore. She will never be a hot, contemporary pop star again. Those days are gone. The question is whether she can reclaim some dignity and a sense of direction in this next phase of her career, like Prince has, or whether she will just drift about aimlessly. The jury's still out on that one.

See,this just proves what I was saying earlier.Madonna has never gotten a "pass".She's gotten way more criticism than Janet ever received.I don't know why some folks think she gets away with murder.I remember during the Sex/Erotica era,she was being bashed left and right.The critics were brutal.In 1993,I recall seeing several "Is Madonna Over?"-type articles in major magazines.The reason why she's survived the backlash is because she's extremely smart and has a strong personality.She had a tough,defiant "fuck you" attitude back then,which Janet simply doesn't have.I remember seeing Janet last year on that news interview,where they embarassed her by asking about the SuperBowl.She appeared weak,with no backbone at all.

This will be my final "essay" on the subject because I've already addressed most of these points throughout the course of discussion on this thread.
IN SUMMATION The difference is Madonna has been allowed to come back!

Soulalive, I don't have anything against Madonna fans or Madonna herself actually. But I HONESTLY don't see that Madonna has grown that much as an artist at all. From my observation, she's doing the same thing she's always done,and making shitloads of money off it.That's her strength, really.

You're talking to someone who isn't all that impressed with her in the first place. I don't get involved in any of her threads as a rule because I don't have much good to say about her. I don't play any Madonna "games" on this site. I just don't see where she's that great except for convincing her fans that she's great.. really going for more..of a sound having more worldwide appeal at the RIGHT time in her career.

A lot of Madonna's fans keep telling me how's she's changed it up and how interesting she is--much more so than Janet. However, I just don't agree. "Musically" and even image-wise I don't think Madonna has necessarily "reinvented" herself all that match.

And not to bring-up old wounds, but when push comes to shove, I don't think she's particularly brave in the face of REAL controversy: didn't she change a video. lyrics, or something like that because she didn't want to be Dixie-chicked?

Plus I recall a little that really pissed me off at the time when she said at a concert in Great Britain, something like the stupidest Brit is still smarter than any American? Well I would assume she's not including her Amerian "fans" in that statement?

Now as I've said in the course of this thread, Janet has definitely made some very dumb, very damaging moves as a very precarious time in her career--when most would think she'd be OLD enough to know better, costing her tremendously. Janet should be embarrassed about the Super Bowl because it was a stupid, unnecessary move, and yeah she was "weak" to even go there; however, I also think the media and viewing public overreacted just tad. Given the climate of that time period, the decision to bare her breast was career suicide for Janet. But years have past and the climate has changed, so why is the press still harping on it anyway? Frankly, I think the media are baiting Janet for some quip maybe about Bush.. or the moral majority just to sell their own “story,” BUT SHE WON’T BITE, and maybe for good reason because I’m not so sure if the public would think she was all that “brave,” but more defiant? I think the public wouldn't trust her motives whatever she might say about the incident, so it might be best not to comment any further.

Now regarding personal growth, Janet has talked about being spiritual, but she hasn't harped on it. She talked about politics, but hasn't harped on it. She's talked about her various "causes." She hasn't had kids, but a lot celebs wait until their 40's to adopt or have kids. However, maybe she might not want kids, too? Would it make Janet more interesting to do what exactly besides cutting the explicitly sexual lyrics in some of her songs? Now musically, Janet is doing what she has always done in much the same way as Madonna except she hasn't taken-up the guitar of piano to give herself more cred. But for Janet,.. and now maybe even finally for Madonna from what I read in that thread--it's not working for her anymore because they BOTH risk becoming charicatures of their former selves as age takes its toll. The difference is that I'm not sure if Janet has that many hard-core fans left worldwide if she's only sold half-a million doing what she made her "famous." It might be worth a shot for her to really change it up because it can't get much worse. LOL She's REALLY going to have to do some reinventing; however, then her hard-core fans might leave, so she'd break even, so her sales might never be the same no matter what she does--as midnightmover has stated numerous times in this thread.

I'll say this much: I think she was too "lenient" due to blind loyalty on people who got her into this mess in the first place.. and very NAIVE to be talked into baring her breast on national television. It's one thing to do it on MTV, and quite another on CBS, and she should have known better. Justin should have known better, ya know? Her advisors should have known better: her creative team--responsible for putting her in the best light should have known better, but I guess they all wanted to make an "impact, " at the risk of throwing her under a bus. Janet was just plain stupid to trust their judgment with their "work" nearly irreparably damaging her career to where she’s in the position of making a comeback at this stage in the game. So it might be in her best interest to rethink some of her associations because I’m not sure if they really have her best interest at heart anyway.

Isel said:

America elected Bush for two terms I think that's what she was talking about.Obviously,she doesn't mean every American,just the ones who voted for Bush and it's hard to argue with that,lol.
[Edited 4/9/08 3:58am]

I'm only gonna say this one more time,so pay close attention:

You may not think she's great,but you DO enjoy discussing her.That's the kind of artist Madonna is.She evokes strong opinions,pro and con.There are many people who despise her,but they still keep an eye on her and what she does.Madonna is one of those artists who is not easy to ignore.

Yeah,she pulled her "American Life" video in 2003.I don't know if you've ever seen it,but it's a bold,hard-hitting video that shows alot of war violence and blood.It probably would have been insensitive to release it while our soldiers were being sent to war.Do you really think their families needed Madonna to remind them of what their sons/daughers were facing? While I disagreed with her decision to pull it (I think it made a strong statement),I totally understand her reasons for doing so.

America elected Bush for two terms I think that's what she was talking about.Obviously,she doesn't mean every American,just the ones who voted for Bush and it's hard to argue with that,lol.

midnightmover said:

i agree.. janet is really not popular.. i have always thought that... and i think because people feel they can't relate to her.... a lot people like artist.. not necessarily for their music.. but a lot to do with relating to that artist..

The thing is how will Janet gain the respect from radio and mainstream America to get the credit and play she deserves.

Why I brought up Madonna was because she has been there, been through the scrutiny, and she handled it by sticking by it and staying true to her word. Not regretting. I wouldnt say she got through it cause shes white. That may be an advantage to her, and I do not deny the racism in the industry, but Madonna wasn't the American Sweetheart with blonde hair and blue eyes. White people hated her because she was ruining that image, and pushing buttons that most people wouldn't even attempt to push. But she handled it, by being Madonna. She gained fans and fame for being outspoken, not binding by the rules. People like that in an artist. Who wants to play by the rules its boring? She lost some fans, but she gained some during that period, regardless of the press.

Will Janet ever be forgiven? Or will she need to face upto the whole ordeal honestly. Whether its through her music or what? Madonna created hype around her, and she had her less popular records, but she kept honest to herself etc. And when she came out with Ray Of Light, radio and everyone loved her again. Its like... is it really the music that gets you over the obstacle or is it your attitude?

Janet I think can get through the backlash, but how I don't know. Cause radio is just ignoring her. Theres no hype around her name at all.

TotalAlisa said:

Yeah, Rihanna and Beyonce could release any old crap right now, and it would be a hit because they are "in". Janet could release the best song known to man and it would bomb because she is "out". It's that simple.