Any of you got any objections? ORGNOTE me. But I'll stop for now.

Timmy84 said:

I agree it is nonsense not being about to take criticism about any artist, so why the personal attacks? It's not I haven't criticized Janet either.

See.. for me it was a discussion--a debate if you will,not necessarily an argument. I was really more interested in the larger issue because I think it's relevant.

I do think there is a "problem," but I can't really put my finger on it. Frankly, I don't understand why Janet has had more success with this cd, in particular--why it hasn't caught-on, and I honestly don't Madonna's product or Britney's, for example, are any better than Janet's.

It's a mystery to me... But maybe things will change-up if Janet gets to feeling better.

Isel said:

Why does any pop star's career fade? Janet's time at the top lasted far longer than most of her contemporaries. Just ask yourself what happened to Belinda Carlisle? Sheena Easton? Pat Benatar? Cyndi Lauper? Think of more recent cases like J-Lo, or Ashanti. That is the nature of pop music. Even Prince hasn't had a hit in 14 years. You have to understand that Madonna is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. You should be glad that your favorite had as long on top as she did, 'cos I'll tell you one thing for sure, it was much more time than she ever deserved.

Isel said:

She is in the WRONG label to begin with - Island Def Jam is MARIAH's. Whenever you're with a company that homes another POP DIVA, trouble comes. THAT'S THE MAIN REASON why Janet ain't have more success. See people are scared to say it because we clowned those that said that, but now that I think about it, they're right, lol. IDJ made some dumbass mistakes on the promotion and Janet figured if she promoted it halfway before its release, it'll give her the same sales her last three albums got, well it's not working so far now, is it?

I say get the attention back on Janet rather than compare other divas.

Timmy84 said:

Maybe? I don't know. Well.. as Janet relates to other "divas," when I heard Madge's song and saw her video, with people raving about it--some critical, too, though in all fairness, I just couldn't understand. I really think Discipline is a good cd, and her two videos have been good.

And then.. I was reading some praises for Madonna promoting her "sexiness" at 50, and I just lost it because I remember Janet being criticized for being overtly sexual in her late 30's!

I've already mentioned more of my take on the double standard up thread, so I don't want to repeat myself--again.

I do think there is this double standard going-on, and it does bother me because I don't like "unfairness."

I actually could elaborate more--not about Madonna, but more about my theory concerning Janet,but I'm going to pass to avoid a huge war of words. These types of discussions are better left to eht Pol/Rel discussion, with which I'm more familiar and more interested if the truth be told.

Well believe it or not, I have things to do today, so I'll take-off! This part of your weekend entertainment is over FOR NOW! But I'll be back!!

Timmy84 said:

Bullshit. Island did everything right with this album. The problem is Janet. Her brand is faded and worn out. People see her as yesterday's woman, and she has done nothing to change people's minds. Still doing the same played out routines. It's just boring. Her old fans have moved on, and younger people see her as irrelevant.

The fact is, you have Jermaine to thank for the fact that you even got Discipline. He was the one who dragged her passive ass off to Island, and they then made the album for her. If not for Jermaine, she would probably have retreated to the fridge after 20 YO. Certainly no label would have invested so much into trying to revive that brand under normal circumstances. It was Jermaine who got her this final chance and LA Reid should've known better than to go along with it, but I guess he had to if he wanted to sign Jermaine.

midnightmover said:

Hmmm... maybe... I did say Janet waited until the last week to promote it. Then again, I don't know. But oh well...

Isel said:

i think people have grown tired of Janet just doing nothing but sex. Don't worry Mariah will get the same comments here in a year or so.

Isel said:

But isn't being sexy and being overtly sexual two different things? They are to me.

I do think many are just bored with Janet. While she's great to look at, what comes after that? Not much, it seems. And to top it off she doesn't have a very interesting real-life persona. She's just sorta there. Which all the more makes her musical images seem staged.

I don't know why Discipline didn't have staying power. While it's one of her better albums in the last few years it wasn't as personal as I thought it was going to be. I didn't feel like it was really her project but that's just me. But as to her decreasing sales, I do think there may be a multitude of reasons that are unique to Janet only, which is why it's not really fair to compare artists past a certain point.

JackieBlue said:

I'm back.. only for a moment though!! LOL

NOT TO OPEN ANY OLD WOUNDS, Madonna has been overtly sexy in the past, too. So now we are talking a matter of degrees? Madonna "toned it down," so now she's acceptable, but Janet is not? So Janet just needs to tone it down, right?

As far as comparisons between artists, frankly I do think it's fair to compare--or find similarities between artists. I also think it's fair to bring-up differences. As far as Madge and Janet, I've already brought-up some similarities earlier in the thread--not just based upon both "marketing" sex either. I also brought-up some differences as well including but not limited to Janet leaning more toward r&b than pure "pop" anyway.

I do agree with you that Janet's situation is definitely "unique" from say Madonna's, Kylie's, Britney's., etc. I could go on with my "theory," but all it would do is start a war. People don't really want to discuss topics I've discovered from my interaction in this particular thread. They just want to say,Janet's sound is tired, so deal with it." But I really think there's a little something more to it than that.

Oh.. and somebody mentioned Mariah singing about sex? Well, I haven't been keeping track of Mariah, but isn't she the same age Janet was during Damita Jo?
I think the difference between Mariah and someone like Janet is that Mariah can fall back on her voice. Although Janet's voice isn't bad, it's not like Mariah's.

I have a couple of articles I found I would share with you all, but you don't really want to read them which is fine with me. It's like the one article I posted, the quote used to describe my off-topicness was about PARIS HILTON, when she was only one example. It was a 2 page article.. and the best quote to undermine its credibility and mine for posting it was about Paris Hilton? That was NOT the point of the entire article. There were other points in that article about "white artists being easier to market," but he must have missed that one.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to "bait" anyone into an argument. That's not why I visit this forum. I just thought it was an interesting point, and related to a topic I had discussed in the Pol/Rel. section.

I don't get my kicks from bashing artists or anybody else for that matter.
[Edited 4/7/08 7:20am]

Timmy84 said:

ITS NOT HARD TO GRASP.. i understand madonna is more popular.. but people DO NOT GRASP.. is madonna is more popular.. and it is NOT BECAUSE SHE IS A BETTER ARTIST.. OR CAN DANCE, SING, OR HAVE BETTER SONGS....

i do understand madonna is a big artist... what i don't understand is WHY?????

WHY isn't janet as big...??? and don't give me that crap she doesn't reinvent herself.. she always changes up her style...

Isel said:

I'm sorry I responded to your post in reference to that evil emoticon. I should have made it a new post.Everyone needs to chill! It's just gotten silly and heated. If people want to seriously talk about JANET"S ALBUM in a real and not nasty manner and not come up with bitchy comments (I refuse to respond to that person but it isn't you....we know who it is), maybe we should start a different thread.

How about this for a title: Janet's Discipline and NOT MADONNA'S

VinnyM27 said:

Vinny, you know that when it comes to a thread on a pop diva, someone is gonna mention MADONNA! They can't help themselves.

How come nobody is commenting on this?





Janet's problems have nothing to do with Nipplegate or race Her problem is that people aren't interested in the same old thing she's offering.She's done three R&B albums in a row,and the previous two were mostly sex-themed.I haven't heard the new album,just a few singles,but it doesn't seem like such a huge departure from what she's been doing in the past few years.

SoulAlive said:

Its cause when it really comes down to it she's not really that talented.

TotalAlisa said:

I think Madonna is just allot harder of a worker. Each album has different themes, different looks, different sounds/producers...usually cutting edge stuff.

She's also (for the most part) stayed true to her dance roots, and 80% of the time her risks pay off.

Her videos also change, if its a dance track, you just know how janet's will look, Madonna's is up in the air. Same goes for her live shows, i cant even tell the last 3 janet tours apart anymore...cant say that about madonna.

xperience319 said:

Maybe Janet should hire Jamie King? Hasn't he been with Madonna for years? Janet seems to change-up her artistic directors/choreographers a lot more, I'll give her that.

However, I just don't think Janet enjoys touring, period. She hasn't toured since A4Y, and probably won't tour again unless she has something to really motivate her. I haven't seen her "live," but I do admit the A4Y was not very creative, but she had publicly stated she had to be talked into doing that one, so.. As I have said MANY times throughout this thread, it seems Janet doesn't enjoy the grind of touring. She enjoys the rehearsals. She enjoys the performing. But she doesn't seem to really enjoy the actually traveling. Frankly, I have can relate to Janet because I've had to travel in the past for my job, and at first, I loved it, but it got old real fast living out of a suitcase. Does that make me lazy? I hope not. I just hated traveling after awhile even though I enjoyed the "job" itself.

Not to start any wars because that is NOT my intent, I will say this again: FOR ME Madonna hasn't done anything that "fresh" either. Now.. with Ray of Light she seemed to shift to more "euro/techo" inspired pop which is very popular worldwide right now (I'm not a fan... but that's a different discussion). However, I'm not going to say Madonna's music is any better than Janet's. I'm not going to say it's worse either--except FOR ME, personally because Madonna is NOT my favorite.

As far as her tours, I've seen a few ...her lastest being "Confessions"--but not live. I watched Confessions on Bravo, and while visually it was quite stunning, I can't say I'd pay the amount of money Madonna was asking to go see it because Madonna herself is just not that impressive to me on many levels--and that includes her DANCING.(Her chaines in the Confessions video were surprisingly amateurish and BAD, for example. I was shocked, actually.) For all her "training," I've never thought she was that great of a dancer. Sorry, but that's just my opinion. Now she is very limber, in good shape, and is very experienced at yoga.

Madonna IS Madonna--nothing more; nothing less just like most other artists. I don't see the Stones changing up what they've done for years? The Peppers changed it up some (I actually like some of their older stuff better), but essentially they are the same. Nora Jones is the same. Prince has changed it up a bit, but is essentially Prince (I prefer a lot of his older stuff, too.) As far as Madonna, I don't think she's done anything that amazing. She was even Madonna in Evita. So for you all to go on about how she changes it up. I don't see it. In both mediums, she has never been anything but Madonna which is fine for those people who happen to enjoy Madonna.

The way all of my alledged "Madonna bashing" relates and compares to Janet is those of you who enjoy Madonna enjoy her, period for whatever reason--whether that be her style of music, dance, theatre, or the woman herself. On the other hand, those of you who keep saying, Janet is tired. Janet has no talent... blah, blah, blah.. Well that's just personal bias, and a circular discussion. I really don't see much difference MUSICALLY between Janet and Madonna except for the differences in GENRE, perhaps, and THAT in and of itself might be the key to why Janet isn't as appealing on a broader scale. To me, if someone is going to call Janet "talentless," well it's just like saying Madonna is talentless since they are essentially the same type of artist with a similar "formula" for success, albeit Madonna's being much more successful. Although a lot of music "purists" don't enjoy either one of them, I disagree, conceding BOTH of these women have talent as entertainers at the very least if not singers (neither one have great voices) or musicians (I can play better guitar than Madonna). At one point, it's a matter of personal preference.

I will agree Janet has made some huge errors in judgment. I will agree Janet's heart hasn't been in the music business for years, but I honestly think it's more because she wants to be competitive, and she's not, and doesn't really know how to become more competitive. I think she needs to be a "winner,"seeming to need "immediate gratification," and doesn't really know how to deal with not being as popular as she once was. Actually, I think she's lost some confidence. For example, I will also agree Janet's voice has gotten weaker--or her style of singing isn'ts as "full-out" as it used to be, and Janet can't afford to get any softer because she never had a belt voice to begin with. But all of that said, Janet keeps hanging in there, so she still has the desire to be successful in music.. for reasons only known to her because a lot of other artists in similar situations would have given up already.

I will agree Janet is in a very precarious and unique situation, but I won't discuss it here. I might take it over to Pol./Rel... as a general topic, but right now I'm not sure how to word it-- relating to racism in the music business as a whole, as reflected in some of the articles I found, particularly the last where music execs. in Great Britain are trying to be a bit more pro-active.

Suffice to say, I think it's more difficult for Janet to "stay-on-top" than someone like Madge for a variety of reasons. Regarding the racial issue, even though she undoubtedly has the support of the black community, I really believe it's the white community where she has lost a lot of her support, and Janet always had a huge white fanbase. If I can attempt to make a comparison, it's just like the Williams sisters in tennis. It doesn't matter how successful they are or have been.. tennis is a white dominated sport, period. The majority of fans are white not to mention the majority of players. To me "pop" music is still "white" dominated on a lot of levels even though obviously huge strides have been made--particularly by rap artists, for example--and before them the Jacksons, ironically enough. Worse, the music business in general is still "male" dominated. And yes, older woman--legends in era have more of a difficult time with longevity, particularly in pop music, and to me ageism against woman prevails regardless of race. There's already a double-standard in the entertainment business as a whole regarding aging men and aging women.

I just think Janet has more of a struggle on her hands. Ironically, I also agree the way for her to become "popular" again might be to quit trying to be popular, and do something completely different--like a jazz cd or something like that without dancers at all. Now THAT would be a risk and a true "re-invention." I think she should hook-up with someone like Herbie Hancock or Rick Rubin-- a genius at sort of "stripping down" artists to their essence and go in a completely different direction. Then nobody could say she wasn't trying something new.
Maybe it's time to let Madonna have her crown as it is. Janet might do something where expectations wouldn't be as high to begin with regarding sales, but she would really grow as an artist with the experience...
[Edited 4/7/08 6:25am]

SoulAlive said:

You're right. I think I sort of ignored that because I don't want to believe that the "Discipline" era is already over (but let's face it...it probably is!).

A rock album would be cool. Even though "Discipline" is a slight step in the right direction, it isn't gangbusters. There is so much weight on her trying to keep up with R&B and pop trends and while R&B radio really had her back with "Feedback" but considering I think I only heard "Luv" for about a week, R&B radio might be sooo fickle with being current that it does not allow for her to get a pop hit. I would love to hear her do a rock album (maybe more rock pop) and show people what she is truly capable of when it comes to writing songs.

Acting ventures could be cool as well. I really liked her in "Why Did I Get Married?" Probably her best movie role (never got into "Poetic Justice" and in "the Klumps" she was basically a model although she showed some humor).

xperience319 said:

i don't care how much madonna changes.. her music is still not better then Janet's... and other artist who have been around for a long time have not changed their style..so why does janet have to????

im tired of hearing reasons why madonna is popular because none are really that good....

janet's discipline album has many dance songs... at least 5 dance songs...

she was smart to do "Why Did I Get Married".Tyler Perry's films are always successful.Janet was smart to be a part of that.She's a decent actress too.

At this point,I think she should just do the tour.The wheels are already in motion,it would be foolish to back out of it now.When the tour is over,she should find a new,interesting project....maybe put music on hold for awhile?

Interesting. Janet is a race martyr because there aren't a lot of British black artists on the British charts. Impeccable logic there.

Isel said:

Isel, I think my post was misunderstood since I never mentioned Madonna but I don’t have the energy to respond. I will say I can’t pretend Janet’s overtly sexual lyrics haven’t played some part in her monotony along with a few other things. I wasn’t saying Janet versus Madonna, just that to me there’s a difference between being natural sexy and being overtly sexual.

midnightmover said:

Baiting again are you? Well I don't have time to be your entertainment this morning.

I didn't say that. I don't think she's a martyr at all. However, I DO believe race is a factor in a lot of things including but not limited to music.

But you can believe what you want.

JackieBlue said:

I think most of us get what you're saying. Madonna hasn't really sung about sex in years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure Erotica in 1992 was the last time we really heard her sing explicit lyrics, and even that wasn't as coarse as some of what Janet's let slip from her mouth (pun intended).

midnightmover said:

Yes, most if not all of us DO get what you are saying. MY response is still it's all a matter of degrees. Just because Madonna doesn't sing about orgasms, doesn't mean she doesn't still exploit her sexuality--overtly: I just saw a recent picture of Madge sitting spread eagle? What's that about? She was humping a dancer in the Confessions video as I recall, but as long as she doesn't "sing" about it, that's ok. Gotcha. And as I recall from the confessions tour, she was dressed as a dominatrix (wow she's sure gotten a lot of mileage out of that one), and her dancers were crawling around on stage, but also long as she isn't having an orgasm via her music, well that's ok

I just don't think Madonna is all that deep whether she talks about about sings about sex or not.

But I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
[Edited 4/7/08 6:59am]

midnightmover said:

Yeah, I think it’s been awhile. I skipped most of American Life so I can’t speak on that CD. I think by 35, Madonna had moved past some if not a lot of that but I'm not going to do the math.

IMO Folks,Janet's music carrer is on it's last 2 legs. Janet should be feeling lucky and thanking God that her career has lasted this long. The only 2 reasons why she took off the way she did.
1. She hooked up with Jam/lewis, who gave her a album that was hitting from the first song to the last song. Plus these songs were getting lots and lots of airplay on the radio. Cuz let's be real if she hadn't hooked up with Jimmy and Terry, there would be no music career to talk about. cause before control, Janet was looking at a very short Music career.

2. Her video's, at that time there was really no artist dancing in their videos like Janet except her brother Micheal, and when MTV caught on to her, that really boosted her career.

But now after 20 years things have changed. She No longer uses Jam/Lewis to produce her music, she is no longer a trendsetter in the video dept, cuz now it seem like every artist is dancing in their video, and some are doing a better job then Janet herself. And Mtv and Top40 radio are starting to play her music and video after two albums that got mostly no airplay, but that will not save her. Janet is no longer hip. I think people are starting to get bored with her because she doesn't do anything different with her music it's always the same song and dance with her.

JackieBlue said:

Jackie, just to be clear--you may have not mentioned Madonna in your post, but you "highlighted" my reference to her in what you quoted from me, so that's why I thought you were referring to "madonna." As I said, I just don't come-up with this stuff out of the blue: see reply 339.
[Edited 4/7/08 7:21am]

lastdecember said:

Because the general public doesn't. It's sad but true. I think, also, even if someone like Springsteen releases a dud (more so in quality than chartwise), it probably doesn't bother them so much because they know he'll get back on the horse. Maybe Madonna and Janet fans put too much stock into album sales...

My concern has always been if Janet's albums keep bombing, she'll make less of them. Only the opposite has happened! And with "Discipline" the albums seem to be getting better (well, she went down with "20 YO" but went back up with 'Displince"). At this rate, we might have a new album by the end of the year!

Although, if Madonna never recorded another top selling album and just toured for the next 20 or so years, that would be cool. But frankly, unlike the Stones, who don't even really have to put out a new album to do a tour (they toured a greatest hits CD a few years back...who does that?), Madonna puts a whole lot of stock into her albums. It would just never happen. Janet could probably tour too, but frankly, people are more passionate about her albums (I know I am).

Isel said:

Isel, that’s what happens when I let too much time past between posts but I’ve been too tired to respond properly. I know you don’t pull stuff out the blue. You’re always thorough. That’s what I get for trying to multi-task.

But I guess it is about degrees to some extent.

Without sounding like a prude, I don’t need to see all that from Madonna but she doesn’t overwhelm her fans with it (anymore). On the other hand, I don’t think she should stop being sexual just because she’s 50 either.

Madonna may not be deep but she's far more interesting to me on record and off.