Yep, get their asses too. Also, instead of embracing shows like "American Idol" who put the emphasis on singing only, start bad mouthing the show because none of the contestants get a band behind them once they get a record deal. They use all their emphasis on singing (which is usually over-singing). It's time for a comeback of music. Fuck the singing. Hell, a damn opera singer can sing. As Morris would say....What's the fucking problem here, are your shoes on too tight or something? (clap, clap) Let's have some action! I want some asses wigglin'!.....and if it ain't capable of making an ass wiggle, then kill the shit.

Perspective from someone involved in some historic music...

Q: The kids now are all bedroom musicians...

A: Oh the samplers, it's just terrible.
The samplers... I mean it's good for some things. But really for creative music you've got to really be doing it live.

...Teo Macero



Now you might think, "Well he's just some old dude that did some old Miles Davis albums", but that old dude still had some valuable insight...

"I mean all these electronics are great but if you don't know what the hell to do with them and you're not a good composer you might as well send it back."

...The difference between Art & Commerce.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

BlaqueKnight said:

Valid points, you've stated. Some people only foolhearted thought sampling was used just in Rap/Hip-Hop. But, as you've stated, it's virtually used in all kinds of genres. And at the end of the day, the originally writers of the material/music will get paid.

theAudience said:

I had a very heated conversation with a friend of mine who is a music lover too and I started to get frustrated and shouted: "Musical whoring has to stop"

A creative person can do creative things with sampling.

People quote Shakespeare or reference other art, that's not too different from sampling.

As long as the final product is different from the sampled product I think sampling is fine...generally.

But before actual electronic sampling, musicians were 'sampling' (meaning 'borrowing', or at least drawing influence from) other artists' riffs, songs, drum beats, vocal styles. It is the way of music. Nothing comes from nowhere.

That said, just electronically sampling some old funk artist's groove or vocal 'snatch' and looping it and making it the main feature of 'your' record, unless there's some pretty heavy other originality in there, ain't my idea of creativity.

It can be a little creative, I suppose, imo like with DJ Shadow's 'Endtroducing' album years back, but in general, I'd say sampling is a form of musical cannabilism, which ain't very healthy. Ask any cannibal; they normally only do it on special occasions .

I always liked James Brown's analogy of how it felt to be sampled; 'I made this suit, and they're stealin' the buttons I sowed on it. How would you feel if I stole the buttons from your suit?'.

Christopher said:

True. I don't always think it is done right though.

Cinnie said:

Great example of doing it right? Teddy Riley: My Diggity

Suzieq76 said:

I think THESE drum samplers has change the music industry in ways that guitars & keyboards hasn't:





By change, I mean that anyone & anything can be sample and can become a potential hits (barring all lawsuits).

I am not against sampling, i really enjoy JDilla compositions and he is adding a new dimension to the original tracks.
I am against sampling a track which has been slightly changed today (too easy), that's a rip off.
I love music and creativity, old or new, I don't like copyists earning tons of money for something they (ab)used on someone else's expense.

BlaqueKnight said:

Prince isn't the only one. Dr. Dre has done this before during the makings of the Chronic 2001 album.

BlaqueKnight said:

Exactly. The major labels values their stockbrokers a lot more than their artists these days.

I just thought of something: My former student's Dad is the voice U hear when Missy Elliot's "Lose Control" begins...
"Music makes U lose control..."
She sampled a song from a funk band he was in in the 70s (sorry the name escapes me! )
Anyway- when she was nominated for a Grammy, Mr. H. was also listed for songwriting credits, and would have won one also. (She didn't tho.)

So the question is: how wrong was Missy's sampling in that case?

I do feel very ignorant and like I've been fooled when I find out a song I liked is based on an old sample.

More often than not the sample is the hook of the song.

chocolate1 said:

Missy receive the permission from the publishing company (the current owners of that original song's publishing rights) to sample the vocals. As long as the original songwriters receive their paychecks, everything was legal.
[Edited 3/10/08 15:53pm]

chocolate1 said:

That voice is from "Body Work" by Hot Streak


The other sample was "Clear" by Cybotron

Cinnie said:

Thank U... I couldn't remember his group, but the voice is Curtis Hudson's.
I had actually never heard the whole song, so thanks for that, too!

(additional line edit)
[Edited 3/10/08 16:34pm]

TonyVanDam said:

I wasn't questioning the legality, but commenting on what people were saying about sampling being wrong. I was saying that if Mr. Hudson had received a Grammy along with Missy as a songwriter, would that negate how "wrong" she was for sampling his work?

I've sampled before
but I'm straying away
from that habit
with each project I approach

I wanna make the shit
that will BE sampled
years from now...

who wants to hear a
sample of a sample...
you know?

Miles said:

Valid point. The electronical aspect perhaps did away creativity being demonstrated through musicianship with instrumentation.

Miles said:

Case Closed.
[Edited 3/10/08 18:23pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

J.Dilla,pete rock,d.j premier has a unique way of sampling by chopping up
the beats that goes without saying. Now sean combs, timbaland, and most of
these so called rap producers have a shitty way of biting off the artistic
work of musicians. As far as your prince reference it may be true to an extent, but you won't see prince reworking someone else's music every album and changing it slightly and calling it his work where as sean combs and timbaland do. There's a big difference. Yes the record companies are at fault probably more than the hip hop artists because the record companies are greedy and the only thing they care about is that dollar sign. So yes for the most part i agree with the majority of orgers here sampling sucks despite your view.

chocolate1 said:

Well the main point that's being made is that if anyone song became a hit because of a sample from another person's work, then why not support the person that created that original track.

In Missy case, if her fans love her tracks because of a Juan Atkins/Cyberton sample, then why not buy & listen to Juan Atkins' music catalog. At least we know that "The Godfather Of Techno" created his music from the ground up with synths & a drum machine. No sampler whatsoever.
[Edited 3/10/08 19:27pm]

TonyVanDam said:

And that's exactly what I did, so to anyone with the same attitude.

TonyVanDam said:

That's why I try to provide the originals when I can, so kids can learn something.
I'm not actually that big on sampling - I said that earlier (esp. the way Diddy & Timbaland do it).
I had just thought of a scenario.

phunkdaddy said:
[/quote]

J.Dilla,pete rock,d.j premier has a unique way of sampling by chopping up
the beats that goes without saying. Now sean combs, timbaland, and most of
these so called rap producers have a shitty way of biting off the artistic
work of musicians. As far as your prince reference it may be true to an extent, but you won't see prince reworking someone else's music every album and changing it slightly and calling it his work where as sean combs and timbaland do. There's a big difference. Yes the record companies are at fault probably more than the hip hop artists because the record companies are greedy and the only thing they care about is that dollar sign. So yes for the most part i agree with the majority of orgers here sampling sucks despite your view.[/quote]


My examples of Prince sampling can be supported by Michael Bland's posts. I didn't say anything that he didn't already say so they are not "true to an extent"; they are TRUE according to Mike. Now if you choose to believe that Mike would come on here and lie about something like that when he was asked a question about Prince's processes of recording, then that's on you and whoever else feels that way. I generally take people at their word and don't assume everyone is lying about everything for no reason.
And thank God or the fact that Prince doesn't do what Timb, Pharrell and the rest of those clowns do. I respect his originality, although like many other talented artists, he has stolen the "feel" of other songs by other artists without biting or plagiarizing the material.
While I respect Timb's catalog and I know that not all of his work is samples, he has decended into a sample artist in the last few years and I think his ass is just lazy. I never liked the Slep2unes. I respect the fact that Pharrell plays drums and keys proficiently, but he is one of the laziest sons of bitches in the biz. The only time he plays is with N.E.R.D.
My point was that sampling (the act of using pieces of other artists' songs) and the use of samples for various reasons are two different things. Sampling someone's snare drum and using it to make a completely different beat is a HUGE difference from riding somebody's hit song. People tend to clump them together because of lack of understanding of the differences. I was simply trying to clarify. My view is basically the same as the rest of the people on this thread, its just that I was more specific about what I have issue with rather than generalizing sampling. I'd rather hear people chop it up on an axe rather than chop up somebody else's axe work. Feel me?
Now if we can just figure out a way to educate kids on the originals of the music they listen to and stimulate the younger generation on learning actual musical instruments...

The only group that really turned sampling into art was p.m. dawn... they were so creative with it. It was if the song had turned into a completely new composition.

Whose song is “My Funny Valentine”?

Chet Baker? Ella Fitzgerald? Frank Sinatra? How about Rodgers and Hart?

How about “Knock on Wood”?

No, that tremendous disco version was not written by Ami Stewart or her producers. Nor was it Ike & Tina, David Bowie, or Otis Redding and Carla Thomas.

That’s Eddie Floyd and Steve Cropper chopping down that tree.

Badu’s “Amerykahn Promise” a brilliant homage to a mostly unknown band or something else entirely?

Cover songs have a long, honored tradition and have been used by almost every musical artist living or dead, often as an expression of love for a particular song/artist, not just to fool the uninitiated.

I think what we can almost all agree upon -- although we’d never be able to agree on exactly where it gets applied -- is that some number of hip-hop tracks essentially cover a song and then refer to it as sampling.

At best that’s a bit disingenuous. At worst that’s highway robbery. “Listen to my hot new track!”

Let’s call it what it is. A cover song, which sometimes consists of a unique take and/or an original rap.

“Listen to my dope lyrics and my new arrangement over this sick James Brown hook" would often be more truthful.

But trying to decide where and when that line gets crossed is certainly not a task I’d cherish.

And I’m all for educating the ignorant, but that means everyone of us, as there’s not a single person alive who hasn’t mistaken a song as an original, as it would take literally thousands of lifetimes to listen to it all.

chocolate1 said:

yeah..they use sampling entirely too much ..
[Edited 3/11/08 1:35am]

BlaqueKnight said:

You've made an interesting point about Timberland. Pharrell has put just as many artists as Timberland on the charts w/his production.
Also, I agree totally with the additional points you made on sampling and production.