If they could be considered one band, they would be the greatest, most creative, most talented band in music history. I know many of you would disagree, but I'm right and you're wrong. I cannot say enough about these guys and I'm continually amazed every time I listen to them. If you haven't heard them or heard of them, I strongly suggest you check them out. Here's a little background on each.

Joy Division- their name derived from the brothels in Nazi concentration camps.
Misleading name to say the least.

They started out as a punk band called Warsaw with their name inspired by Bowie's "Low" album. They formed in the wake of the Sex Pistols Anarchy tour after the founding members all saw the show in Manchester. When their producer decided to add synthesizers in the post production of their first album, the band decided to scrap the project. They hated it. Quickly they regrouped and began work on their debut EP, "An Ideal For Living". It was apparent quite early that Joy Division was something special. They became the first band in the post-punk movement by emphasizing mood and expression instead of the anger and agression common to punk. This laid the groundwork for all alternative bands to come. Their sound is almost impossible to describe but I cannot think of a more perfect, democratic setup than this band had. They achieved their sound almost by accident. When they first formed and were rehearsing in warehouses and garages, they had terribly cheap equipment. The guitar player, Bernard Albrecht, had to turn his amp up to 10 just for it to register. Either it was full blast or there would be no sound at all. And because of this, the bass player Peter Hook had to play very high just to be heard above the distortion. From this, they developed something entirely new. It was the first time a bass guitar had been used as the primary melodic instrument while the guitar was used almost as rhythm, churning out unearthly blocks of sound. And then there are their drums. I could have an orgasm just talking about them. Stephen Morris was so precise and lightning fast on his kit that at times that he could make it sound like a drum machine. The sound is so intimate, you can hear the drum tips on the drum heads. God! Heaven! Last, but most important of all is Ian Curtis. What a tortured soul he was. His writing style was so literate, human and real people are still trying to make sense of it. Lyrics in rock music had never been that emotionally painful or personal. Finally, their producer Martin Hannett harnessed Joy Division's extreme ideas into a sound that has never been heard before or since. The use of space in the mix is breathtaking. It's minimalist but they get maximum intensity out of every instrument. That's what I mean about a democratic sound- no one's fighting for your attention, it all blends together into the tightest machine-like unit imaginable. There were only 2 proper albums recorded by the band, "Unknown Pleasures" and "Closer". But it was already obvious how far this band would've gone if given the chance. The growth this band displayed from 1977-1980 is overwhelming. For that alone, they're one of the most influential bands ever. They went from thrash punk to post-punk to dance rock to goth to synth all in 3 years. Unfortunately, we'll never know what they might've become if given the chance. Ian Curtis killed himself the night before they were about to embark on their first US tour. He suffered from epilepsy, and the combination of prescription drugs, humiliation from having seizures on stage, a terminal illness and a disintegrating marraige proved too much for him to take. It truly breaks my heart that he's gone.

New Order- based on the names, the opressed become the oppressors.

The one good thing that came from the dissolution of Joy Division is that the members decided to continue on as New Order. They added Stephen Morris' girlfriend Gillian Gilbert and began anew. Their first single was a remake of the final 2 songs recorded by their former band- "Ceremony/In A Lonely Place". It was a moving tribute. With their first album "Movement" they had a hard time stepping out of the huge shadow of their former band- they sounded like a bored, boring version of Joy Division. But with their 1982 EP and especially their self-produced 2nd album "Power, Corruption and Lies" they got the fresh start they were looking for. They explored synth music and dance culture more freely than any "rock" band at the time. For any other band this would be considered selling out but somehow New Order pulled it off. I would go so far as to say that they're the greatest dance act in history. Their single for "Blue Monday" is the greatest selling 12" to date. Nothing describes the feeling of ecstasy better than "Age Of Consent" or "Your Silent Face". I hear their influence on techno and house music, Madchester, and even Madonna. They took a big hiatus for 8 years to explore side projects. Bernard formed Electronic with Johnny Marr from The Smiths and Peter started Monaco. They reformed in 2001 to release "Get Ready" and play Moby's Area1 festival. With Billy Corgan as their 2nd guitarist and a killer album, they haven't lost anything with time. They sound as exciting and vital as ever.

Both bands shunned conformity and the mainstream religiously. They refused to lipsynch for television, wouldn't appear in their album artwork, hated videos, were brutally honest in interviews and often would only play 45 minute sets. They felt that the obligatory encore was insulting the intelligence of an audience. They wanted to leave the mystique and purity of their albums intact by not releasing singles from them. All of Joy Division's singles and most of New Order's early ones cannot be found on any albums. For those of you that are interested in these bands, I would recommend that you pick up their "Substance" singles collections. They're a great place to start and showcase how brilliant and unique they are.

Timeless, classic stuff! Can you tell that I love these guys?

The only mistake that Joy Division made was letting Ian Curtis be by himself. They should have been able to tell that he was a suicidal wreck! It's in the lyrics, guys. Gillian Gilbert just planned the whole thing so that she could get in the band.

Joy Division was a huge influence on one of my favorite bands, Swans. Swans covered 'Love will tear us apart', and generally became masters of the whole morose/depressive thing. I keep meaning to go back and listen to Unknown Pleasures again; I still remember getting the pristine vinyl ca. 82, and instantly loving it, part. 'She's lost control'.

New Order is unquestionably my biggest discovery of the past year. It started with "The Best of" which I bought a little over 2 years ago but didn't full get into until last year. "Vanishing Point" and "Dreams Never End" completely killed me! Then I heard the original "Blue Monday" (not the crappy 88 version) and fell in love. "Substance" soon followed, and each song took its turn blowing me away! I've slowly been getting into the albums, particularly "Power, Corruption and Lies" and "Technique" and have discovered that a lot of the album tracks are top-notch too. What a great band!

Joy Division used to completely disturb me, partly because the lead singer was also named Ian. The music was very turbulent and worrisome, but I've grown to appreciate it. Songs like "She's Lost Control," "Love Will Tear Us Apart," "Disorder" and "Transmission" simply rock.

Ian, I love you!

It was wonderful getting into them at the same time. I can't remember the last time that happened with anybody- discovering an artist together. Since you got me into Eurythmics that doesn't really count and vice versa with Aaliyah.

And playing Joy Division for you was indeed a critical moment. Thanks for being receptive.

TRON said:

Thanks for showing me what an idiot I was for not being receptive to it earlier!

You weren't an idiot. It's intense, confrontational stuff. Not your average, everyday singalong feel-good music. I wouldn't expect most people to love it, nor would I casually play it for anyone.
[This message was edited Sat Oct 26 16:54:11 PDT 2002 by TRON]

TRON said:

Neither is "Cri du Chat."

That's why I didn't want to tell you what it was at first. Annie can be scary!

TRON said:

Annie LIKE being evil.

I don't think she can help it. In her case, it's not a matter of "liking" or choice.

TRON said:

Annie pretty much LIKE everything, though.

Both Joy Division and New Order are great bands...

New Order is not depressing like Joy Division... you could bum the positivity posse on this site out for months with one good listening of Joy Division!

Damn, I wish that Ian Curtis wouldn't have killed himself...

EDIT: bum instead of but... what the fuck was I thinking???
[This message was edited Sat Oct 26 18:28:08 PDT 2002 by IceNine]

IceNine said:

Yeah, he pretty much J'd himself.

How appropriate- J'd = Joy Division

TRON said:

They were doomed from the start! Mary should've warned them!

IceNine said:


The funny thing is I don't get depressed when I'm listening to them. A lot of times I put them on when I'm mad or confused about something and it helps get those feelings out of my system. Their sound makes me ecstatic and very excited. I whip around the room and become very manic. It's quite the scene, my brother can tell you. Songs like "Ice Age", "Digital", and "Wilderness" make me wanna fuck something up or punch through walls. I love it!

IceNine said:

We're like crystal, we break easy

oh and isn't "Love Vigilante" a pop masterpiece?
[This message was edited Sun Oct 27 1:08:34 PST 2002 by jnoel]

?
[This message was edited Sun Mar 2 9:58:26 PST 2003 by IstenSzek]

Could you be thinking of "Getting Away With It"?

Or "Get the message"?

What does everyone think of the new New Order album "Get Ready"? I think it might be their best yet.

Excellent Bands. I'm partial to Joy Division. Their song LOVE WILL TEAR US APART is a Classic. Love BLUE MONDAY from New Order and their album Substance was very good.

I say this on another New orders thread already but must need answer! Please help!

There is the song world in order they have which is meant for the football cup! It have a Jamaican English rapper/football man called John Barnes on OK!

Anyone know if he have a solo album? He is funky rapper!

My boyfriend loves these groups. From what I've heard by them, they're great.

Tibor, the song you're thinking of is called "World In Motion" from 1990.

TRON said:

Thanks Tron! Does John Barnes have solo albums or other raps?

Lemme check. I don't know anything about him.

Here is a list of projects on which John Barnes has appeared and what he does on each:

Herb Alpert Keep Your Eye on Me (1987) Organ, Tuba, Arranger, Keyboards, Voices
Herb Alpert & Tijuana... Classics, Vol. 20 (1987) Producer
Gerald Alston Open Invitation (1990) Arranger, Programming
Arpeggio Let the Music Play (1978) Arranger
Arpeggio Love & Desire (1994) Rhythm Arrangements
Arpeggio Best of Arpeggio: Love & Desire (1995) Arranger
Atlantic Starr As the Band Turns (1986) Keyboards
Atlantic Starr Ultimate Collection (2000) Keyboards
Patti Austin Patti Austin (1984) Synthesizer, Keyboards
Gato Barbieri Tropico (1978) Keyboards
Gato Barbieri Fire and Passion (1988) Keyboards
Regina Belle Passion (1993) Synthesizer, Percussion, Arranger, Keyboards, Synclavier
Ruby Braff Hear Me Talkin' (1967) Sax (Baritone)
Johnny Bristol Bristol's Creme (1976) Keyboards
Elkie Brooks Live & Learn (1979) Keyboards
Jim Capaldi Play It by Ear (1977) Keyboards
Charisma Out of Time (1994) Keyboards
The Chocolate Jam Co. Spread of the Future Keyboards
Leonard Cohen Future (1992) Bass, Synthesizer Bass
Leonard Cohen More Best of Leonard Cohen (1997) Bass
Frankie Crocker Heart and Soul Orchestra (1977) Clarinet, Keyboards, Clavinet, Fender Rhodes
Paulinho DaCosta Happy People (1979)
Celine Dion Unison (1990) Synthesizer, Keyboards, Synclavier, Vocoder
Celine Dion Celine Dion/Unison (1999) Keyboards, Synclavier, Vocoder
Celine Dion Unison/Celine Dion/The Colour of... (2002) Keyboards, Synclavier, Vocoder
Lamont Dozier Working on You (1981) Organ, Synthesizer, Piano, Keyboards, Moog Synthesizer, Prophet 5
Yvonne Elliman Love Me (1976) Percussion, Keyboards
Yvonne Elliman Best of Yvonne Elliman (1997) Percussion, Keyboards
The Emotions Emotions Live in '96 (1996) Producer
Enchantment Utopia (1983) Synthesizer, Fairlight
Digby Fairweather With Nat in Mind (1994) Alto, Clarinet, Baritone
The 5th Dimension High on Sunshine (1978) Keyboards
Finished Touch Need to Know You Better (1978) Keyboards
Roberta Flack Oasis (1988) Synthesizer, Keyboards
The Four Tops Anthology (1974) Synthesizer, Arranger, Programming, Rhythm Arrangements
The Four Tops Essential Tops (2000) Rhythm Arrangements, Synthesizer Programming
The Four Tops Fourever (2001) Synthesizer, Keyboards, Rhythm Arrangements, Synthesizer Programming
Steven Fromholz Frolicking in the Myth (1977) Synthesizer, Keyboards
Marvin Gaye I Want You (1976) Piano, Fender Rhodes
Marvin Gaye Master 1961-1984 (1995) Piano, Fender Rhodes
Marvin Gaye Classics Collection (1995) Piano, Fender Rhodes
Johnny Gill Johnny Gill [Atlantic/Cotillion] (1983) Fender Rhodes
Benny Golson I'm Always Dancin' to the Music (1978) Keyboards
The Great British Jazz... Best of the Great British Jazz... (1998) Reeds
Billy Griffin Respect (1983) Synthesizer, Arranger, Keyboards, Producer, Horn Arrangements
Marty Grosz Just for Fun! (1996) Clarinet, Saxophone, Sax (Baritone), Vocals
Leon Haywood Intimate (1976) Piano
Headcleaner Pigment of Imagination (1997) Guitar, Drums, Vocals
Michael Henderson Slingshot Keyboards
Howard Hewett I Commit to Love (1986) Keyboards
High Inergy Shoulda Gone Dancin' (1979) Synthesizer, Keyboards
Hodges, James & Smith What Have You Done for Love (1978)
Jennifer Holliday Say You Love Me (1985) Synthesizer, Keyboards
Whitney Houston Whitney Houston (1985) Clarinet
Phyllis Hyman Can't We Fall in Love Again (1981) Keyboards
Phyllis Hyman Legacy of Phyllis Hyman (1996) Synthesizer, Piano, Keyboards
Julio Iglesias 1100 Bel Air Place (1984) Synthesizer, Arranger, Keyboards, Fender Rhodes
The Jacksons Victory (1984) Synthesizer, Arranger
Original Soundtrack Jacksons: An American Dream (1992) Vocals, Producer
Jacksons Best Remixes (1998) Keyboards, Fairlight
Janet Jackson Dream Street (1984) Keyboards, Programming, Moog Synthesizer, Rhythm, Associate Producer, Drum Programming, Rhythm Arrangements, Moog Bass
Jermaine Jackson Jermaine Jackson (1984) Bass, Keyboards
Jermaine Jackson You Said (1992) Arranger, Synclavier
Michael Jackson Bad (1987) Synthesizer, Piano, Arranger, Programming, Vocal Arrangement, String Arrangements, Rhythm Arrangements
Michael Jackson Dangerous (1992) Bass, Keyboards
Michael Jackson HIStory: Past, Present and Future, (1995) Synthesizer, Piano, Keyboards
Michael Jackson Blood on the Dance Floor/Dangerous (1997) Synthesizer, Keyboards
Michael Jackson Bad [Bonus Tracks] (2001) Synthesizer, Piano, Vocal Arrangement, String Arrangements, Rhythm Arrangements, Synthesizer Arrangements
Michael Jackson Greatest Hits: HIStory, Vol. 1 (2001) Synthesizer, Keyboards, Vocal Arrangement
Rebbie Jackson Yours Faithfully (1998) Synthesizer, Drum Programming
Janice-Marie Hiatus of the Heart (2000) Keyboards, Engineer, Vocal Arrangement, Remixing, Rhythm Arrangements
Johnson & Branson Johnson & Branson (1989) Keyboards
Quincy Jones Q: The Musical Biography of Quincy (2001) Synthesizer Arrangements
Keb' Mo' Slow Down (1998) Keyboards
Keb' Mo' Slow Down/The Door (1998) Keyboards
King Friday Get It (1995) Mandolin, Percussion, Vocals
Gladys Knight & the Pips Touch (1981) Keyboards
Dave Koz Lucky Man (1993) Piano
Kenny Loggins Vox Humana (1985) Synthesizer
Kenny Loggins Leap of Faith (1991) Synthesizer, Piano, Strings, Synclavier
Kenny Loggins Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow: The... (1997) Arranger, Keyboards, Producer
Kenny Loggins Unimaginable Life (1997) Synclavier
Kenny Loggins Now That I Know Love (1997) Arranger
Willie Mabon Comeback (1973) Saxophone
Pete Magadini and Don... Bones Blues (1977) Synthesizer
Manhattan Transfer Coming Out (1976) Piano
Manhattan Transfer Pastiche (1976) Piano
Manhattan Transfer Vocalese (1985) Arranger
Manhattan Transfer Anthology: Down in Birdland (1992) Synthesizer, Piano, Arranger, Synclavier, Fairlight, Tx-816, Vocorder, Linn 9000
Herbie Mann Memphis Two-Step (1970) Keyboards
Kazu Matsui Project Is That the Way to Your Heart Keyboards
Bill Medley Right Here and Now (1982) Keyboards
Bette Midler Broken Blossom (1977) Piano
The Miracles Essential Collection (2002) Strings, Horn
Eddie Murphy So Happy (1989) Keyboards, Engineer, Mixing
New Order World in Motion [UK] (1989)
Alexander O'Neal Love Makes No Sense (1993) Piano
Jeffrey Osborne Jeffrey Osborne (1982) Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzer
Jennifer Paige Jennifer Paige (1998) Keyboards
Jennifer Paige Jennifer Paige [Japan] (1998) Keyboards
Peaches & Herb 2 Hot! (1978) Synthesizer, Keyboards
Peaches & Herb Best of Peaches & Herb (1996) Synthesizer Arrangements
Ce Ce Peniston Finally (1993) Synthesizer
Pizzicato Five Five by Five (1994) Remixing
Cousin Joe Pleasant Bluesman from New Orleans (1974) Clarinet
The Pointer Sisters Special Things (1980) Keyboards
The Pointer Sisters Black & White (1981) Keyboards
The Pointer Sisters So Excited (1982) Keyboards
The Pointer Sisters Break Out (1983) Piano
Lionel Richie Dancing on the Ceiling (1986) Synthesizer, Piano, Arranger, Synclavier, Synthesizer Programming
Lionel Richie Louder Than Words (1996) Synthesizer
Minnie Riperton Stay in Love (1977) Keyboards
Smokey Robinson Love Breeze (1978) Keyboards
Smokey Robinson & the... 35th Anniversary Collection (1994) Synthesizer, Keyboards
Spike Robinson Tenor Madness (1997) Sax (Baritone), Sax (Tenor)
Romance Dance My Way to Your Heart (1994) Keyboards
Diana Ross Force Behind the Power (1991) Synthesizer, Keyboards, Programming, Synclavier, Synthesizer Arrangements, Synclavier Programming, Synthesizer
Demis Roussos Demis Roussos [Mercury] Synthesizer
Leo Sayer Endless Flight (1976) Piano
Leo Sayer Here (1979) Keyboards
Leo Sayer Endless Flight [Expanded] (2002) Keyboards
Shalamar Big Fun (1979) Keyboards
Sherrick Sherrick (1987) Synthesizer, Percussion, Piano, Keyboards, Synclavier
Dusty Springfield It Begins Again (1978) Synthesizer, Keyboards, Piano (Electric), Clavinet
Dusty Springfield It Begins Again [UK Bonus Track] (2002) Synthesizer, Piano (Electric), Clavinet
Edwin Starr Stronger Than You Think I Am (1980) Keyboards
Bill Summers Straight to the Bank (1978) Reeds, Keyboards
Syreeta One to One (1977) Keyboards
Tavares Sky High! (1976) Synthesizer, Piano
Tavares Love Storm (1977) Keyboards
Tavares It Only Takes a Minute: A Lifetime (1997) Synthesizer, Keyboards
The Temptations Milestone (1991) Keyboards
The Temptations Emperors of Soul (1994) Keyboards
Ralph Tresvant Ralph Tresvant (1990) Producer, Synclavier
Triple S Connection Triple 'S' Connection Keyboards
Ultrapull From All Directions (2002) Keyboards
Vesta Vesta 4 U (1988) Synthesizer
Kristen Vigard Kristen Vigard (1988) Piano
Leon Ware Musical Massage (1976) Keyboards
Wah Wah Watson Elementary (1977) Keyboards
Alex Welsh Legacy Band Sound of Alex, Vol. 1 (2002) Sax (Alto), Bars
Original Soundtrack Hero Ain't Nothin' But a Sandwich (1978) Keyboards
Original Soundtrack Twins: Music from the Original... (1989) Producer
Original Soundtrack Working Girl (1989) Piano
Various Artists British Jazz [Discovery] (1954) Sax (Baritone), Sax (Tenor)
Various Artists American Blues Legends (1974) Keyboards
Various Artists Space Dance (1978) Keyboards
Various Artists USA for Africa: We Are the World (1985) Synthesizer, Rhythm Arrangements, Synthesizer Arrangements, Musician, Synthesizer Programming
Various Artists Rock, Rhythm & Blues (1989) Piano
Various Artists American Dream Mini Series (1992)
Various Artists Put on Your Green Shoes (1993) Vocal Arrangement
Various Artists Hitsville USA, Vol. 2: The Motown... (1993) Producer
Various Artists Salute to Eddie Condon (1993) Sax (Baritone), Vocals
Various Artists Power of Peace: In Support of CARE (1996) Producer
Various Artists Ballads for Trombone (1998) Sax (Alto), Sax (Baritone)
Various Artists Great Choirs of America (2000) Vocals
Various Artists Street Grooves (2002) Keyboards

Herb Alpert Keep Your Eye on Me
Carl Anderson Pieces of a Heart / Why We Are Here
Toni Braxton Toni Braxton
Dee Dee Bridgewater Just Family
Paulinho DaCosta Happy People
The Emotions Emotions Live in '96
Enchantment Utopia
Brian Austin Green One Stop Carnival
Original Soundtrack Jacksons: An American Dream
Kenny Loggins Unimaginable Life
Kazu Matsui Project Is That the Way to Your Heart
The Pharcyde Bizarre Ride II the Pharcyde / Cydeways: The Best of the Pharcyde
Lionel Richie Dancing on the Ceiling
Rose Royce Perfect Lover
Ralph Tresvant Ralph Tresvant
Jody Watley 20th Century Masters - The Millennium C / Greatest Hits / Intimacy
Michael White So Far Away