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PrintableCinnie said: I don't think the original CD master sounds bad... still very dynamic.
Think about the burst on the intro to "Smooth Criminal" I don't own the original CD but I agree with you that DYNAMICS are key when it comes to songs like "Smooth Criminal". The version on the Ultimate Collection which is probably the same mastering as on the special edition CD sounds a bit too artifically boosted for my taste. It's by no means as bad as many other remasters that have been compressed and brickwalled to death, but while it's convenient that the remasters are on the same volume level as new CDs when you're using an mp3 player or CD changer, I DO have a volume knob on my stereo and I don't subcribe to the school of Louder=better . If original CD releases from the 80s are from the original master and transferred properly to CD they can often sound more natural and more dynamic than the "new, improved" remasters that are often designed to have the same volume as new CDs and EQ'd to sound good on boomboxes. And don't get me started on Noise Reduction, which often sucks the life and ambience out of the recording, especially when it's used excessively. I don't really consider myself an audiophile, and I think that are many good remasters out there, even those that use compression and other little "fixes" in moderation, but there's also a lot of crappy re-issues that have been maximised and no-noised to death. OK, I've realized I've gone way off topic, but I would just like to add that Bad certainly sounds more dated than Thriller and OTW, but that's because it's a product of that hi-tech synth era in the late 80s. Plus the songs are still good, despite the dated sound. And I do know one interesting thing that hasn't been mentioned here in the thread, the Bad remaster has the single mixes of some of the tracks, like "The Way You Make Me Feel" and "Dirty Diana", instead of the original album versions. | |
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purplehippieonthe1 said: the Bad remaster has the single mixes of some of the tracks, like "The Way You Make Me Feel" and "Dirty Diana", instead of the original album versions.
I know that Off The Wall included the single remix of "Rock With You" (basically, some added claps during the chorus) And thank you for emphasizing my point about the fact our stereos do have a volume control. I think Prince's albums need remastering for all kinds of reasons, and although "loudness" is key, there is more to it. | |
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This reminds me, I need to get my bat and go remind my uncle to return my Bad vinyl that he "borrowed." | |
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coolcat said: kash said: The title of this thread is just horrible more like
To me Bad is one of the best pop albums made and flows really well. Not many albums can boast so many good songs on one album. Its success speaks for itself. Even now I listen to songs like Smooth Criminal, Dirty Diana, Bad, IJCSLY TWYMMF, MITM, over today’s pop. I'd say its as close to a perfect pop album that it could have been.  I agree. I love the synthy sounds... and great songs... Smooth Criminal is amazing... my favorite MJ song... I can't believe that Quincy Jones didn't want Smooth Criminal to make the final cut, he didn't want it to be included on the album , but Mj insisted to put it there, MJ made the right decision , the song is amazing. MICHAEL JACKSON
R.I.P مايكل جاكسون للأبد 1958 | |
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seeingvoices12 said: coolcat said: I agree. I love the synthy sounds... and great songs... Smooth Criminal is amazing... my favorite MJ song... I can't believe that Quincy Jones didn't want Smooth Criminal to make the final cut, he didn't want it to be included on the album , but Mj insisted to put it there, MJ made the right decision , the song is amazing. The music video for Smooth Criminal is brilliant. I think one of the best -- if not the best -- music videos of all time.  | |
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dirtyman2005 said: i don't know whats so dated about this at all.
it sounds fucking crisp and clear and fucking great the synths on this album are a fucking masterpiece. liberian girl, way you make me feel, speed demon, smooth criminal, dirty diana, etc all cracking songs which sound great, no matter what instruments or synths you play them with. thats the sign of great songs. whoever calls these synths "dated" is probably a fuck face. 80s synth programmers were much more intelligent and advanced than today's shit faced fuckers, especially the Shit hop crowd, who use simply sounds. At least the Bad album, Michael boddicker actually created each sound one by one himself and made them unique. Shit hop today uses a lot of shitty presets from trance synths which any fuck face can do. it takes talent and bollocks to create memorable synth bass lines and custom sounds. bad has it all and much more. fuck all you who dont agree! EXACTLY. Bad is far from dated. It has an utterly unique sound and is crafted to perfection. One of the best pop albums ever!!! |
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moderatorCinnie said: purplehippieonthe1 said: the Bad remaster has the single mixes of some of the tracks, like "The Way You Make Me Feel" and "Dirty Diana", instead of the original album versions.
I know that Off The Wall included the single remix of "Rock With You" (basically, some added claps during the chorus) And thank you for emphasizing my point about the fact our stereos do have a volume control. I think Prince's albums need remastering for all kinds of reasons, and although "loudness" is key, there is more to it. Thought you might want the lowdown on everything that is different between the original vinyl and CD pressings of MJ albums. This gives details about the single releases as well: The original pressings of Off the Wall (which I still have never heard -- hint, hint to someone) contained different mixes of "Rock With You" and "Get on the Floor." When the "Rock With You" single was released, which was backed with "On the Floor," those songs were remixed, and future LP pressings were replaced with the remixed versions, which "disappeared" and have never been issued on CD. Jackson did the same thing with some of the songs from "Bad," such as "I Just Can't Stop Loving You," which omitted the spoken intro after the early US pressings. The song "Get On The Floor" has more radical differences between the original mix and the remixes found on all CDs. The "Rock With You" 45 was an edit of the remixed version, cutting the middle instrumental break in half. It's only been issued on CD on an out-of-print Japanese CD3, coupled with "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough." But that would be very easy to recreate yourself. "Rock With You", as on the original 1979 LP, cassette, and 8-track, is different than anything you find now on CD. After the first run of the album, MJ ordered all future releases of the album contain the single mix, starting with the half-speed version. This is why all CDs contain the single mix. BTW, the actual 45 is edited too. The difference between the original mix and the single mix is that the guitar track is different and there are no handclaps on the original. Also, the hi-hat was boosted on the remix. I have the 45 of "Don't Stop," but I haven't really checked it out yet. I'll let you know. I know it is not the short radio edit that has been issued on some CDs. The version of "Thriller" on "Number Ones" is NOT the US 45 edit -- it's the DJ edit. The 45 version completely omitted the Vincent Price rap -- it's just music where the first two lines of the rap would have been, then it cuts to the section after the first portion of the rap, and fades out before the second part of the rap. It also omits the sound effects and "build" at the beginning of the song. The actual running time of the single is 4:09, not 3:56 as labeled. I recently ordered a Japanese CD3 (from the same series I mentioned above) which contains the US single edit of "Thriller." "Thriller" is coupled with "Human Nature" on the CD I ordered... and the seller told me "Human Nature" runs 3:47, some 15 seconds shorter than the LP version. The 45 lists the running time as 4:05, but I don't have it, so I can't verify. Human Nature is a slightly different mix. I only had time for one listen before I had to leave for work, but the only obvious difference on first listen was at the brief instrumental break in the middle of the song -- clearly a different instrument playing. More of an "organ" sound. It also cuts about 15 seconds out towards the end of the song, running only 3:47. Now I'm going to have to buy the 45, because that lists the running time as 4:05. I'm gonna be mad if it's the single mix but the wrong edit. So close and yet so far... The 45 of "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" was actually a 4:15 edit of the extended dance mix, which is very slightly different from the LP version. The dance mix has been issued on a couple import CDs, but the 45 mix is M.I.A. on CD... and it's not quite possible to create the 45 version from the dance mix, I tried... there's one edit point that doesn't match up. The 45 was actually its own mix. "The Way You Make Me Feel" was a remix, which is the same mix that appeared on the "HiStory" CD, but the 45 version was a good 30 seconds shorter, cutting out one chorus. It was issued as a 3-inch CD single in the US. "Dirty Diana" was a remix with a lot more punch than the LP version, also faded out about 10 seconds earlier. It also was issued as a US CD3. (I understand that has also been swapped on newer pressings of the "Bad" CD.) "Another Part of Me" and "Smooth Criminal" were both edits of the Extended Dance Remixes, which were slightly speeded up from the original LP versions. The single versions were issued on CD3 in Japan, and on the US promo CD singles. "Man in the Mirror" was slightly edited, though it sounds to my ears like it could be a remix. Again, it was released as a CD3 in the US. [Edited 1/1/08 15:35pm] | |
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novabrkr said: Well, the amount of bass / treble still doesn't outdo the fact how MJ & Quincy approached the synthesizer textures and the drum programming on the album, so if it sounds dated to many ears, I don't think they're totally wrong about their opinion either (it's my own personal opinion as well - altough MJ/Q still did also use the same instrumentation as before, so maybe the datedness has actually more to do with i.e. the reverberation effects and the arrangements in general)However, if we're honest about it, I don't think too many albums made during that period sounded anything like "Bad" did. Maybe it just suffered from having been in production for so many years?
Mancab: Out of all the songs on that one I do also think "The Way You Make Me Feel" has dated the most. The melody of the chorus especially sounds oddly forced to me these days. "The way you make me feel " sounded contrieved to me at the time it was released, I never warm to the song like most people did. None of the songs truely clicked with me, and they never truely grew on me, although has time has gone on I am appreciating the "Man in the Mirror" more. Smooth Criminal was interesting to me because of the video and not the actual song. The song Bad itself just sounds downright childish. I am not a rock fan so something like Dirty Diana doesn't move me. And all the other songs from Just Good Friends to Speed Demon just sounds contrieved. I guess if you love disposable pop then this album is great but if you want more depth and something that sounds more vintage your better off buying the J5 Third Album than Bad. [Edited 1/1/08 16:13pm] | |
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whatsgoingon said: novabrkr said: Well, the amount of bass / treble still doesn't outdo the fact how MJ & Quincy approached the synthesizer textures and the drum programming on the album, so if it sounds dated to many ears, I don't think they're totally wrong about their opinion either (it's my own personal opinion as well - altough MJ/Q still did also use the same instrumentation as before, so maybe the datedness has actually more to do with i.e. the reverberation effects and the arrangements in general)However, if we're honest about it, I don't think too many albums made during that period sounded anything like "Bad" did. Maybe it just suffered from having been in production for so many years?
Mancab: Out of all the songs on that one I do also think "The Way You Make Me Feel" has dated the most. The melody of the chorus especially sounds oddly forced to me these days. "The way you make me feel " sounded contrieved to me at the time it was released, I never warm to the song like most people did. None of the songs truely clicked with me, and they never truely grew on me, although has time has gone on I am appreciating the "Man in the Mirror" more. Smooth Criminal was interesting to me because of the video and not the actual song. The song Bad itself just sounds downright childish. I am not a rock fan so something like Dirty Diana doesn't move me. And all the other songs from Just Good Friends to Speed Demon just sounds contrieved. I guess if you love disposable pop then this album is great but if you want more depth and something that sounds more vintage your better off buying the J5 Third Album than Bad. Have you hear the two unreleased tracks from the Bad recording session that are included in the 2001 edition? Both Fly Away and Streetwalker are nice, in particular the former. Very soothing. Both are available on YouTube if you are interested. [Edited 1/1/08 15:44pm] | |
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Rodya24 said: whatsgoingon said: "The way you make me feel " sounded contrieved to me at the time it was released, I never warm to the song like most people did. None of the songs truely clicked with me, and they never truely grew on me, although has time has gone on I am appreciating the "Man in the Mirror" more. Smooth Criminal was interesting to me because of the video and not the actual song. The song Bad itself just sounds downright childish. I am not a rock fan so something like Dirty Diana doesn't move me. And all the other songs from Just Good Friends to Speed Demon just sounds contrieved. I guess if you love disposable pop then this album is great but if you want more depth and something that sounds more vintage your better off buying the J5 Third Album than Bad. Have you hear the two unreleased tracks from the Bad recording session that are included in the 2001 edition? Both Fly Away and Streetwalker are nice, in particular the former. Very soothing. Both are available on YouTube if you are interested. [Edited 1/1/08 15:44pm] I think Fly Away is a great song and in a way I can understand why it wasn't included on the original Bad album; it probably wouldn't have sat well with all the poppy sound surrounding it. It would have been better on the Thriller album. | |
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VoicesCarry said: Cinnie said: I know that Off The Wall included the single remix of "Rock With You" (basically, some added claps during the chorus) And thank you for emphasizing my point about the fact our stereos do have a volume control. I think Prince's albums need remastering for all kinds of reasons, and although "loudness" is key, there is more to it. Thought you might want the lowdown on everything that is different between the original vinyl and CD pressings of MJ albums. This gives details about the single releases as well: The original pressings of Off the Wall (which I still have never heard -- hint, hint to someone) contained different mixes of "Rock With You" and "Get on the Floor." When the "Rock With You" single was released, which was backed with "On the Floor," those songs were remixed, and future LP pressings were replaced with the remixed versions, which "disappeared" and have never been issued on CD. Jackson did the same thing with some of the songs from "Bad," such as "I Just Can't Stop Loving You," which omitted the spoken intro after the early US pressings. The song "Get On The Floor" has more radical differences between the original mix and the remixes found on all CDs. The "Rock With You" 45 was an edit of the remixed version, cutting the middle instrumental break in half. It's only been issued on CD on an out-of-print Japanese CD3, coupled with "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough." But that would be very easy to recreate yourself. "Rock With You", as on the original 1979 LP, cassette, and 8-track, is different than anything you find now on CD. After the first run of the album, MJ ordered all future releases of the album contain the single mix, starting with the half-speed version. This is why all CDs contain the single mix. BTW, the actual 45 is edited too. The difference between the original mix and the single mix is that the guitar track is different and there are no handclaps on the original. Also, the hi-hat was boosted on the remix. I have the 45 of "Don't Stop," but I haven't really checked it out yet. I'll let you know. I know it is not the short radio edit that has been issued on some CDs. The version of "Thriller" on "Number Ones" is NOT the US 45 edit -- it's the DJ edit. The 45 version completely omitted the Vincent Price rap -- it's just music where the first two lines of the rap would have been, then it cuts to the section after the first portion of the rap, and fades out before the second part of the rap. It also omits the sound effects and "build" at the beginning of the song. The actual running time of the single is 4:09, not 3:56 as labeled. I recently ordered a Japanese CD3 (from the same series I mentioned above) which contains the US single edit of "Thriller." "Thriller" is coupled with "Human Nature" on the CD I ordered... and the seller told me "Human Nature" runs 3:47, some 15 seconds shorter than the LP version. The 45 lists the running time as 4:05, but I don't have it, so I can't verify. Human Nature is a slightly different mix. I only had time for one listen before I had to leave for work, but the only obvious difference on first listen was at the brief instrumental break in the middle of the song -- clearly a different instrument playing. More of an "organ" sound. It also cuts about 15 seconds out towards the end of the song, running only 3:47. Now I'm going to have to buy the 45, because that lists the running time as 4:05. I'm gonna be mad if it's the single mix but the wrong edit. So close and yet so far... The 45 of "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" was actually a 4:15 edit of the extended dance mix, which is very slightly different from the LP version. The dance mix has been issued on a couple import CDs, but the 45 mix is M.I.A. on CD... and it's not quite possible to create the 45 version from the dance mix, I tried... there's one edit point that doesn't match up. The 45 was actually its own mix. "The Way You Make Me Feel" was a remix, which is the same mix that appeared on the "HiStory" CD, but the 45 version was a good 30 seconds shorter, cutting out one chorus. It was issued as a 3-inch CD single in the US. "Dirty Diana" was a remix with a lot more punch than the LP version, also faded out about 10 seconds earlier. It also was issued as a US CD3. (I understand that has also been swapped on newer pressings of the "Bad" CD.) "Another Part of Me" and "Smooth Criminal" were both edits of the Extended Dance Remixes, which were slightly speeded up from the original LP versions. The single versions were issued on CD3 in Japan, and on the US promo CD singles. "Man in the Mirror" was slightly edited, though it sounds to my ears like it could be a remix. Again, it was released as a CD3 in the US. Thank you.  | |
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INDEED
The reason that cover was replaced was because the head of Sony Records (and MJ's manager Frank Dileo) considered it gay too. daPrettyman said: bboy87 said: Can anyone imagine the album with the original cover?
IMAGE OF ORIGINAL BAD COVER WAS HERE Nice...but very GAY at the same time. How can u be bad with lace across ur face? I guess he really was trying to bite off of Prince huh?!? | |
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seeingvoices12 said: coolcat said: I agree. I love the synthy sounds... and great songs... Smooth Criminal is amazing... my favorite MJ song... I can't believe that Quincy Jones didn't want Smooth Criminal to make the final cut, he didn't want it to be included on the album , but Mj insisted to put it there, MJ made the right decision , the song is amazing. OMG! I never knew that... thank goodness MJ put it in! | |
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coolcat said: seeingvoices12 said: I can't believe that Quincy Jones didn't want Smooth Criminal to make the final cut, he didn't want it to be included on the album , but Mj insisted to put it there, MJ made the right decision , the song is amazing. OMG! I never knew that... thank goodness MJ put it in! I believe QJ preferred "Streetwalker." AFAIC, it's about a tie, but neither of them should've relegated "Leave Me Alone" to a bonus track.  "Whitney was purely and simply one of a kind." ~ Clive Davis | |
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The original mixes of Off The Wall sound somewhat fuller than the ones we regularly hear. Someone posted the original mix to OTW and Bad on a MJ board, I'll try to find the links "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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bboy87 said: The original mixes of Off The Wall sound somewhat fuller than the ones we regularly hear. Someone posted the original mix to OTW and Bad on a MJ board, I'll try to find the links
I'm waitin  | |
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Cinnie said: bboy87 said: The original mixes of Off The Wall sound somewhat fuller than the ones we regularly hear. Someone posted the original mix to OTW and Bad on a MJ board, I'll try to find the links
I'm waitin Same! 
I've got Bad on vinyl and the original master of the CD. Will do a comparison when I get a chance to turn things up loud (have visitors here at the mo  )
Did have a quick listen to the Cd and my first impression is the things that date that production are definitely the drums and bass. The drums are totally 80's reverby stuff and don't thump you in the chest at all like a good set of drums do IMO. The hihats are boosted massively in the high freq to the point that there's no body left to them at all. The bass synth is really hollow sounding! This is not cause it's a synth, it's the tone they created. Check out synth bass on some 70's funk or Stevie Wonder and it'll pound you! This Bad synth bass is very scooped in the mids and sounds thin as a result. I'm pretty sure this is the 1st digital recording MJ did too (I'm almost certain from memory that Thriller was done on 2" tape). Which could also be a reason for the perceived lack of thickness and is also certainly to do with why the high end sounds glassy. Whether the remaster is any better is up for debate, I for one don't enjoy the excessive high end boost and brick wall limiting of modern masters. Once you turn it up past a certain volume your ears start to grate 
On a great master you can turn it up and turn it up for days and it just thumps you harder and sounds even better!
In the end, the Bad album as a production and a recording is a sign of it's time and is near the pinnacle of pop music! _ [Edited 1/1/08 22:48pm] Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss... | |
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For those interested in discussions about masters/remasters:
http://prince.org/msg/7/207822 http://prince.org/msg/8/234049 Another thought on this is that so many people judge recordings listening on a laptop or tv or other small speakers. A heavily limited master with excessive high end will impress you when listening on these type of devices because with a more dynamic master you wouldn't be able to hear the details in the recording at all without this type of processing. Get it on a larger/better system though and it's a whole other story... _ Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss... | |
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purplehippieonthe1 said: And don't get me started on Noise Reduction, which often sucks the life and...
Word. | |
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Cinnie said: bboy87 said: The original mixes of Off The Wall sound somewhat fuller than the ones we regularly hear. Someone posted the original mix to OTW and Bad on a MJ board, I'll try to find the links
I'm waitin I asked the person to reupload it for me  "We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world." |
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Well because of this thread I uploaded Bad to my mp3 player and I listened to it in bed until I feel asleep. I forgot on how epic Speed Demom was. | |
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Cinnie said: bboy87 said: The original mixes of Off The Wall sound somewhat fuller than the ones we regularly hear. Someone posted the original mix to OTW and Bad on a MJ board, I'll try to find the links
I'm waitin gimme those babies 2 me also. Off the wall is my favorite MJ album | |
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seeingvoices12 said: I can't believe that Quincy Jones didn't want Smooth Criminal to make the final cut, he didn't want it to be included on the album , but Mj insisted to put it there, MJ made the right decision , the song is amazing.
I agree with Quincy."Smooth Criminal" is garbage.One of the problems with the 'Bad' album is,most songs sound as if they were written solely for video interpretation."Smooth Criminal" is a prime example.This is certainly the case with the title track. | |
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mancabdriver said: the album just doesn't flow nicely, it seems more like a singles collection to me.
BTW: What do people think of "the way you make me feel?" - i think it's really cheesy but some people think it's one of his best songs "The Way You Make Me Feel" is tedious  that snoozefest isn't close to being one of MJ's best songs. | |
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QUNCEY JONES PRODUCED THILLER. IN AND OUT. FOR THE BAD ALBUM HIS NAME IS ON IT AS PRODUCER BUT IT'S CLEAR MICHAEL DID WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.
LOOKING BACK IT SEEMS THE SUCCESS THRILLER IS WHAT MADE MICHAEL INTO THIS MONSTER WE NOW KNOW. | |
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SoulAlive said: seeingvoices12 said: I can't believe that Quincy Jones didn't want Smooth Criminal to make the final cut, he didn't want it to be included on the album , but Mj insisted to put it there, MJ made the right decision , the song is amazing.
I agree with Quincy."Smooth Criminal" is garbage.One of the problems with the 'Bad' album is,most songs sound as if they were written solely for video interpretation."Smooth Criminal" is a prime example.This is certainly the case with the title track. R u insane? SC is still one of the best track MJ ever did. The synth and drum programming on that baby is uncanny...I dare say...insane in a good way! | |
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SoulAlive said: mancabdriver said: the album just doesn't flow nicely, it seems more like a singles collection to me.
BTW: What do people think of "the way you make me feel?" - i think it's really cheesy but some people think it's one of his best songs "The Way You Make Me Feel" is tedious that snoozefest isn't close to being one of MJ's best songs.
Please...that song is cool because of her: [img] 
Tatiana was fine! | |
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MikeMatronik said: SoulAlive said: I agree with Quincy."Smooth Criminal" is garbage.One of the problems with the 'Bad' album is,most songs sound as if they were written solely for video interpretation."Smooth Criminal" is a prime example.This is certainly the case with the title track. R u insane? SC is still one of the best track MJ ever did. The synth and drum programming on that baby is uncanny...I dare say...insane in a good way! "Smooth Criminal" is dumb and annoying.... annie,are you okay....annie are you okay....are you okay,Annie? 
I remember before the album came out,I read somewhere that Michael was saying/boasting that this song is as powerful as "Billie Jean"  Not quite! | |
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SoulAlive said: seeingvoices12 said: I can't believe that Quincy Jones didn't want Smooth Criminal to make the final cut, he didn't want it to be included on the album , but Mj insisted to put it there, MJ made the right decision , the song is amazing.
I agree with Quincy."Smooth Criminal" is garbage.One of the problems with the 'Bad' album is,most songs sound as if they were written solely for video interpretation."Smooth Criminal" is a prime example.This is certainly the case with the title track.  | |
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SoulAlive said: MikeMatronik said: R u insane? SC is still one of the best track MJ ever did. The synth and drum programming on that baby is uncanny...I dare say...insane in a good way! "Smooth Criminal" is dumb and annoying.... annie,are you okay....annie are you okay....are you okay,Annie?
I remember before the album came out,I read somewhere that Michael was saying/boasting that this song is as powerful as "Billie Jean" Not quite!Man...if I was a mod I would have banned u for such a blasphemy | |
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