TonyVanDam said:

I would say there is a major difference in relevance in soul music -- Otis Redding, Isaac Hayes, Sam & Dave, etc. have the justifiable combination of subjective and objective qualities to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I also feel that people on this pro-Bar-Kays kick are being a little too myopic (namely, it's a funk music forum and sometimes more knowledgeable on the genre to be objective) to look at where The Bar-Kays truly fit in the big picture of soul music.

Here is my problem with this argument: The Bar-Kays are being thrown in solely by association with the Stax artists as a house band. Moreover, when there are people who do think of The Bar-Kays (and it's not as common as some think), they DON'T associate them with the Stax period mostly because that version of the group essentially died on the plane with Redding.

FWIW, the group that we mostly associate with the name The Bar-Kays is the second-generation group that made "Holy Ghost" and had its run with Mercury Records from the latter 1970s through the late 1980s. And that group had a level of success, but clearly not the level of success that warrants any consideration for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

There have been many more acts and other principals who are more worthy than The Bar-Kays -- if The Bar-Kays were inducted, then the bar would have to be lowered to where many more acts with better careers and/or impacts better be inducted to balance out the scales.
[Edited 12/5/07 18:59pm]

I think it would be cool if they were inducted, The Original members were a tight ass band, backing up Otis and being on of the house bands for Stax records. " Soulfinger" is just wicked to me. Booker T & The MG's were a even tighter former Stax house band tho'.

phunkdaddy said:

I understand, but at the same time we can't confuse longevity with impact. IMO, an act has to be a front-runner/dominant player in the shaping of at least one music genre for an extended period (image and on-stage presence, commercially and critically lauded music, ingenuity, relevance, influence, etc.) to be worthy of hall of fame consideration.

For example, I honestly can make a better case for The Time to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame than The Bar-Kays. The group was Prince's first protege act and it reached greater commercial and critical success than The Bar-Kays. Their lineup, sound and formula were the template for soul bands for most of the 1980s and several members went on to solo careers with varying levels of success (Morris Day, Jesse Johnson and especially Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis). In particular, Jam and Lewis played a major role in forming the sound of soul music in the 1980s through the following 10-plus years.
[Edited 12/5/07 18:58pm]

I agree that the barkays are a long shot to make it. The only chance they
would have is their association with otis redding and their one hit during
that period with otis soul finger. I recall going to a music festival in 2001
with the barkays performing. The white people that were in the audience responded heavily when the band performed soul finger and their tribute to
otis redding. They knew the words and larry would back off and let them sing.
Vainandy and funkenstein are probably among the few white fans that readily
recognize any of the post crash barkays hits.

In fact, kool & the gang took the stage after the barkays and the audience
swole even larger particularly among white fans. Kool & the gang has more
credentials than the barkays, even though they were no match for the barkays
on stage during the 80's, Kool would definitely make it in easily over the
barkays if the band already hasn't.
[Edited 12/5/07 19:23pm]

Oh, I totally agree that they were not nearly as successful as some of the other funk bands during their era. I was just saying that they, or even another funk group more successful than them will never make it into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because they never crossed over and were "too black".

When I say "too black", I'm not referring to their color but their sound and their audience as well. Whenever an R&B artist makes it in there, it is usually one that had crossover success and is well known to the white community. Just look at the list that daprettyman posted. Everyone on that list is known to the white community. Probably the least well known would be Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five and they only made it in there because white people listen to rap these days and Grandmaster Flash has been praised by the rappers. Back when Grandmaster Flash was in style, white people didn't even know who they were because they were played on R&B radio only.

You mentioned Midnight Star's "No Parking On The Dancefloor" album which was a huge success. As huge a success as it was, it never crossed over to pop radio. I doubt they will ever make it to the rock and roll hall of fame either. I have no problem with that, or any other funk group not making it in because they were funk and it is the "rock and roll" hall of fame. However, I do see the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as only inducting black artists known by a white audience because they put Grandmaster Flash in there and they aren't rock and roll either.....but they are well known by these white kids today because of today's rappers praising them. If they were only known by the same audience that was familiar with them in 1982 at the height of their success, they wouldn't be in there either.
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[Edited 12/5/07 19:36pm]

vainandy said:

I understood what you meant by "too black" in terms of soul acts not having any crossover translation with pop (white audiences), but pop culture has shown that most soul acts that have crossed over -- or at least received the temporary attention of white audiences -- initially dominated the soul music scene. I honestly feel you have to look past the crossover aspect to a degree and ask whether the act dominated its primary market for a prolonged period.

It's safe to say that most of the black acts in the Rock And Roll Hall of Fame dominated the black contemporary popular music scene. That's what kills The Bar-Kays more than anything -- they were plenty more acts who were the conscious of the soul music scene from the late 1970s through the mid-1980s before The Bar-Kays' name came up. They were above average in the pecking call, but they're not hall of fame-worthy because they were nowhere near the straw that stirred soul music's drink.

As stated on another thread, I always felt "Rock and Roll" in this context is used as a euphemism to describe "U.S. based popular music" so it encompasses all the genres (which explains why people like Louis Armstrong and Johnny Cash are inducted).
[Edited 12/5/07 19:51pm]

OK, Rick James was a huge R&B star in the early 1980s and even had a smash crossover hit "Super Freak" but I don't see him ever being inducted either. His music was just too hard and funky. Prince's music was hard and funky also and I can see him being inducted because he had more rock in his music and it is the "rock and hall" hall of fame. However, how much do want to bet that Miss Shitney Houston will be inducted once she is eligible or maybe a few years after and she had NO rock in her music whatsoever.

vainandy said:

Actually, "You and I" was Rick James' highest-charting pop song. Moreover, I wouldn't be shocked if he was inducted into the Rock And Roll Hall of Fame because he dominated the soul music scene from the late '70s through the mid-'80s and his dominance at least made the pop (white) market aware of him. James simply has a much better case than The Bar-Kays, based on his impact and dominance.

vainandy said:

Prince was a no-brainer, IMO. Outside of rap music, his music ideas (and his proteges') were the dominant style of the '80s. Prince was still commercially relevant and respected through the mid-1990s and in recent years he has undergone a commercial rebirth and interest in his music.

vainandy said:

As stated on another thread, I always felt "rock and roll" in this context is used as a euphemism to describe "U.S. based popular music" so it encompasses all the genres (which explains why people like Louis Armstrong and Johnny Cash are inducted).
[Edited 12/6/07 7:29am]

I've seen The Barkays in concert many times as headliners or part of a music festival that has all types of music such as rock, country, rap, R&B, and funk. When I've seen them as headliners of their own concerts, I've seen no white people in the audience except maybe two or three. When I've seen them as part of a music festival, I saw a lot more white people there but they were left over from a rock or country act that was on the stage before The Barkays. At the music festivals, you get a lot of people that go simply to be "going somewhere" and they don't even care who's performing. The ones left over for The Barkays are usually drunk by the time they take the stage and hop around like rabbits all night. I remember one night, Larry put the yellow python around this white guy's neck. His girlfriend ran like hell but the drunk white guy just kept hollering....."Yeah dude! You guys rock! ROCK ON DUDE! ROCK ON!" He didn't even know what song he was listening to.
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[Edited 12/5/07 19:58pm]

Photo!

Yeah, Rick definately has a better chance than The Barkays but I would be shocked as hell if he was inducted because they just don't induct acts as hard as him. Just look how long it took them to induct Parliament. They should have been inducted in the 1980s but I'm sure they were probably inducted during the 1990s because of all the rappers sampling their music and making it known to the pop audiences.
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[Edited 12/5/07 20:06pm]

StarMon said:

Lemme guess, the one in the blond 'Fro is Larry, right?

Naw, Larry is the one in the white pants and chains with the straight hair. I'm surprised he doesn't have one of these around his neck.....

vainandy said:

Oh... I see him.

They need to show one of their episodes on "Soul Train". Now, that's who I really want to see. I remember one year they were on there with outfits that looked almost like bird wings.

The Bar-Kay's released a new album this year.

vainandy said:

SAY WHAT!?!

vainandy said:

The Rock And Roll Hall of Fame's criteria is that an act has to have been out 25 years since recording its first song, more or less. Parliament-Funkadelic was inducted in 1997. Given the rather convoluted evolution of P-Funk, the Parliament side started becoming prominent in the early 1970s while the Funkadelic essentially came about in the late 1960s/early 1970s. So depending on your measure 25 years from 1997 is 1972, which is roughly around the time the Funk Mob became relevant.

Also in all fairness, the Rock And Roll Hall of Fame came into being in 1986 and first started going through the 1950s artists as well as the obvious no-brainers who should be inducted. Given that it also had to consider various other genres (jazz, country, blues) in addition to the contributors to mainstream white and black contemporary music, I'm not going to beat it over the powers-that-be's heads that P-Funk was inducted in the 1990s.

As for Rick James, as I said he has a shot at being inducted because he was a dominant player in soul music in the late '70s and early '80s. Maybe the lack of a consistent crossover appeal will be Slick Rick's undoing, but if it is then your argument would hold more relevance. But inducting The Bar-Kays would be the music equivalent of inducting an above-average running back like Warrick Dunn into the Pro Football Hall of Fame -- namely, I find it doublespeak to immortalize a band (and implicitly say it was one of the greatest acts ever) when in reality it was merely above average in its prime vs. its peers.
[Edited 12/6/07 6:30am]

I really don't care if they get inducted or not. I don't care what a bunch of old white folks think... all I care about is what I think, and I love me some Bar-Kays.
The Bar-Kays are baaaad muthas and for 'Too Hot To Stop' and 'Flying High On Your Love' alone, they will always rank high in my book

Najee said:

I can't believe that Gamble and Huff haven't been inducted yet

[quote]

Najee said:

You mean snake(s). Look behind the brown one. There's the yellow one also. I am deathly afraid of snakes. I won't even touch a snake skinned boot. But my drunk ass almost touched that yellow snake one night. For me to be that brave, I had to be high on not only some serious alcohol, but some serious funk as well. For that reason alone, they should either induct The Barkays or give them a degree in psychology.

They definately deserve to be in but they will probably induct someone like Shitney first when it comes time for her chance.

I hear ya. I think they should start a Funk Hall of Fame (not a Soul Hall of Fame) and the hell with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame altogether.

vainandy said:

Actually, the white people that were fans of Grandmaster Flash were the ones from the New York punk rock scene. Deborah Harry made this point in one of her old interviews.

Najee said:

.....and Linda Creed! Bell/Creed were a very good song writing duo.

TonyVanDam said:

Plus Flash/Furious 5 were very flashy both clothes-wise and performance-wise so it's understandable why they're in versus the Sugar Hill Gang, who were like rap's version of the Beatles to Flash/Furious 5's Rolling Stones.