I cant help but feel that this debate is being tainted by most peoples deep seated desire to hold onto the past, and resist change. That their overwhelming sense of nostalgia attached to a lot of old soul music is clouding their vision. You cant argue with the evidence however, the 60's & 70's featured some of the greatest soul and RnB acts ever to have graced the scene. Is this mere coincidence, or is true talent not being nurtured or simply not out there?

There's truth in pretty much all the arguments Ive seen on here, from the lack of church and gospel influence to the watering and dumbing down of the genre by greedy record execs. The over exploitation, saturation and over-availability of all music genres seems to ahve taken something away from music. I listen to James Brown singing Lost Someone and wonder could anyone produce that kind of performance today? Has image overtaken emotion? Possibly, but i blame that on the advancement of music as a visual and technological force, not individuals. RnB music has to learn to adapt.

I think its also important to emphasise the differece in the social climate, and recognise how this will have informed black performers before. Where is the anger, passion and emotion that drove performers such as Marvin Gaye, Tina Turner, james Brown.....were they a product of their times, rather than the industry as a whole.

I dont believe its about audiences accepting mediocraty. People like music as a primal thing. I cant quantify why I like certain music, so i wont try, nor do i scrutinize whether its talented record producers, talented performers, talented singers, or talented musicians that float my boat. If they make a good record that gets under my skin, thats what i care about. Whitney Houston probably has the best voice of the last 30 years since Chaka Khan, but the girl wouldn't have done shit if she hadn't had many canny record execs, producers, and talented songwriters helping her. The whole package is a very rare thing(james , Stevie, Prince).

I also think people are being unfair on modern soul music. People can't seem to talk about the talent out there, only the mainstream urban pop and hip hop that clutters up the chart. R&b may have changed its face, and it may have many pretenders, but tehre is still talent and innovation out there. Its not all about making records that sound like they were made 30 years ago sung in a classic R&B fashion. And a record that makes me wanna shake my ass is just as worthy as a record that makes me want to cry. Music is about affecting people - inspiring people - bringing people together. But it does have to move forward. Thats gonna piss some purists off, but it happens. Deal with it.

SORRY BOUT THE LONG POST.
[Edited 11/13/07 6:37am]
[Edited 11/13/07 6:38am]

CrozzaUK said:

This is what kills me about these types of posts: No one is arguing about keeping soul music sounding the same as being stuff from the 1970s or 1980s. If anything, people are arguing about the LACK OF CHANGE in the genre today that has killed it. The genre is stuck in the same rap-incorporated sound of the mid-1990s, when in previous times there were musical style changes every roughly seven or so years.

People are naming artists in the '70s and '80s only as frame of references. Like how major acts in those decades had mostly their own distinctive sound that differentiated them from their peers, compared to today's acts who have the same homogenized rap-inspired sound. It amazes me how some people just take some things out of context to satisfy their viewpoint.
[Edited 11/14/07 4:17am]

with all this talk about "Nasty Girl",I just wanted to add...

"Nasty Girl" is better than 99% of the crap you hear on the radio today! It's incredibly funky and was a very edgy single for its time.And guess what? You can actually dance to it (what a concept,huh?).These days,most R&B songs are so slow and boring,I don't even see how the kids can groove to these songs.

Exactly. When 1989 or 1990 arrived, I had no problem moving on with house/dance music which had taken over after funk died a lingering death from 1985-1989. When house/dance lived it's short life and shit hop took over in the early 1990s, I bitched but I waited it out because styles always change. The mid 1990s came.....no change, the 2000s came.....no change, 2005 came.....no change. Yeah, I'm pissed and it's not because "this isn't the music I grew up with", I'm pissed because there has been no change whatsoever and it's boring as hell. It's like they are going to keep shit hop as the dominating style forever.

I remember in the early 1990s, they wanted to put shit hop slang words such as "def", diss", "wack", etc. in the dictionary. I was thinking at the time, hell, those are fad words just like when people were saying "jive turkey" back in the 1970s. What about when shit hop goes out of style, people won't be using those words anymore? Little did I know that it's never going out of style.

I tell them all the time (mainly to piss them off) that since they only listen to boring ass slow music, then they really should get into symphony or opera because it's just as slow and boring as shit hop. However, if they got into symphony or opera, at least they would be listening to people with talent.

vainandy said:

My friend, I explained you clearly and repeatdely the reason why I believe you are the reason why r&b music sucks today. But since you didn't understand. I'm gonna repeat again.

I said you are the reason R&B Music sucks today because just like you kids don't care if their fav artists can sing, they don't care if they can perform, they don't care if their favorite artists have any kind of music ability whatsoever.

You clearly and repeatdly said that you would support a bunch of talentless people who have no musical ability like Vanity Shit over real talent like Whitney Houston.


I asked you severeal questions...

I asked you if Vanity Shit could play instrument and you said I don't care
I asked you if Vanity Shit could sing and you said I don't care
I asked you if Vanity had any musical ability whatsoever, and you said i don't care

But the funniest part is when I asked you if we should legitimate talentless lipsyncers like Britney Spears if Prince produced her album or T Pain if Prince produced his album or Cassie if Prince produced her album ?

You had a very hard time to respond claiming that Prince would have to write all the songs, play all the instruments, that they would have to either be doing interviews or have something in their lyrics that lets me know that they are finished with the shit hop scene altogether. that at the end your response ... etc but at the end you answer was yes.

You are ready to accept and legitimate talentless people like Cassie or Tpain regardless their lack of musical talent...


And this is exactly the reason why people like you have led R&B where it is now. By accepting more and more mediocre talentless artists. When you accept mediocrity in the first place no matter what, you automatically damage Music. Always.
And right now millions of kids have accepted talentless people as a norm.

Obviously it started somewhere. It didn't start suddenly.

You don't care if Vanity Shit can sing,
kids don't care if their fav artists can sing

You don't care if Vanity Shit can perform live,
kids don't care if their fav artists can perform live...

Just like you don't care if Vanity Shit have any Musical talent in the first place,
kids don't care if their fav artists have any Musical talent in the first place...

You said fuck singing ? kids also say fuck singing now... Ask yourself why so many lipsyncers can make a music career...

I hope this time you clearly understand why I said you are the reason why R&B music sucks nowdays.

vainandy said:

To be honest with you, I wanted to let this thread die, because you were clearly running out of gas. You had hard time to defend your arguments.

But since Najee and Soulive came back into that discussion to defend you like if their lives depend on it.

I'm there now
[Edited 11/14/07 8:52am]

vainandy said:

Hmm, I do agree over the last decade there doesn't seem to have been much progression, but i still love some of the stuff being made by say Timbaland for example, who I feel produces some stellar material. What do you make of the 90's trip hop movement. I consider this a progression of the late 80'sn soul and dance music. Bands like Massive Attack & Soul II Soul took soul music and made a new genre out of it practically - but i still consider it an extension of soul and R&B.

Are we looking in the wrong places focusing our attention on Shit Hop as you put it? Isn't there other stuff out there that is a descendent of R&B?

I'll bite.....

With the exception of Sh*t hop, emo, R&B would be my next to go.

I haven't liked 9 out 10 artists since 1986.

That Chris Rock quote someone recently posted should be stamped on this forum as a sticky, basically saying that today's quote unqoute artists want to be millionaire businessman first and artists second.

There is good music out there in all genres, but it ain't gonna come to you from Z100 or MTV. You have buy albums, see shows, spend time searching, which most of society refuses to do so instead they settle for people like Usher and Fergie.....

It's a shame..... they way popular music breaks my heart.

Andrew

krayzie said:

I'm defending vainandy in the same manner you're answering my questions to you -- which means I'm not. You've ignored several comments I made and you still haven't the question regarding Parliament Funkadelic.

yea..well I can dance to Ciara's Get Up just fine..its the older people who have a problem with it.


Im kinda numb to this conversation as of now peace

I didn't have a hard time responding whatsoever. I said they would have to be finished with shit hop altogether for me to accept them. I want shit hop to die and I don't need a real musician possibly giving a shit hop artist exposure to an older crowd unless that particular artist is over and done with shit hop. It could contaminate the older crowd's taste and possibly open them up to accepting shit hop. Look what happened in the late 80s with the funk fans accepting weaker crossover R&B. I also don't want a shit hopper to possibly influence shit hop on the artist producing them. Yes, I hate shit hop that much.




And do kids care if their favorite artists have real drums, bass, and instruments behind their favorite artists that can't sing? Hell no. Do I care? Hell yes. That's the part that you keep leaving out in each and every single post.

If you can't ask me a question you haven't already asked before, then don't ask. I've answered you each and every time and you have continuously pointed out the same points each time and left out the most important part of my answer. I don't know who you think you are fooling. People on this board can read. They can go back and see my answers in their entirety.




Yeah, I totally understand why you think I'm the reason R&B music sucks these days. Because the only, and I do repeat, only thing you think of when you think of music is singing. I guess you would hate an instrumental jam like Manu Dibango's "Soul Makossa".





I've had a hard time defending my arguements? Considering this is page 7 of this thread, it sure as hell doesn't look that way. You aren't even argueing a case. You are simply stating things and leaving parts of my answers out to make yourself look good. Well, like I said before, people on this board can read. They aren't stupid. They can look back and see my full answers.



Does that intimidate you? You are the one running like a scared rabbit from them.
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[Edited 11/14/07 20:12pm]

I don't know what trip hop is and I've never heard of Massive Attack. As for Soul II Soul, they were decent but not necessarily the type of music I could get into. They were too mellow for my taste. They seemed to be the type of music that people could sit back and "chill" to. I've never been one to simply chill. During the 1990s, I was into house groups like Black Box, The 49ers, Robin S., M People, Crystal Waters, etc. Much more uptempo type music that you can't sit still to.

I remember Jamiroquai being out during that era and I wasn't into them either. They were too laid back and smooth for me. However, when the 2000s came along and they changed their style to a much more uptempo modern disco type sound, I got totally into them and love them. Unfortunately, when they changed their style and speeded up the tempo, the radio got totally out of them. It's like they absolutely refuse to play anything that's an actual jam.
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[Edited 11/14/07 20:29pm]

vainandy said:

You should totally check out Massive Attack, although there stuff is pretty chilled out too (same producer as Soul II Soul) its mind blowingly good.

CrozzaUK said:

LOL!! I can tell you right now, there is no way on God's green earth vainandy would like Massive Attack. They make Brian McKnight seem lively.

vainandy said:

Do u like ...hmm...Mary J's new song? Just Fine

LittleBLUECorvette said:

IMO the music scene changed for the worse when BBD hit it big.

Their legacy lives on...

I took stations that play current music off my dial back in 1997 so I'm not familiar with hardly any new songs....and I like it that way.

As for Mary J. Blige, she is one of the first artists that I can remember that combined singing over a shit hop beat. I can't stand to listen to anything by her for that reason. Even if she made some hardcore funk, I don't think I could listen to it for thinking about the damage she's done in the past. A lot of people were influenced by that and started doing it also. I'm a very stubborn bitch that never forgets and I don't forgive very easily.
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[Edited 11/15/07 21:45pm]

vainandy said:

What about Chomeo's "Opening Up"????


FUNKY
U cant tell me u dont like this. If this came out in 85 u would be all over it
[Edited 11/15/07 22:11pm]

Someone here on the org hipped me to Chromeo about a year ago and I thought they sounded great. I've been looking for their album in the record stores with no luck finding it. If it were some shit hop though, the record stores would have you tripping and stumbling all over it to even get past their doorway.

That's why that "there's good music out there but you have to look for it" arguement is a bunch of bullshit. Even if there is good music out there, the damn record stores don't carry it so you can't even buy it.

so krayzie,are you taking notes?

I think we all clearly explained why today's R&B is so crappy and it has absolutely nothing to do with Madonna or Vanity.

Class is dismissed

vainandy said:

Yeah man, u have to fuckin ORDER shit..or buy it online like Itunes now and days..I bought mine from them. Yeah if it was some south coast bullshit record companies wouldve been givin them $2,000,000.00 advaces n shit