Harlepolis said:

I agree, i think too much emphasis is on the church, mainly because some of the RB singers out there now that we rip apart here, did start in choirs and churches, so thats not the reason. I think its more the way they are molded and trained when they get to a label

Two reasons i feel would be, ONE, the joining of hip hop and RB, there really is no longer a seperation of the two. Look at any male rb singer like Joe or Jaheim, and in the beginning it was just them, then all of a sudden they were doing songs with so and so and then popping up on rap albums. SECOND is the vocal training is garbage, the oversinging, and also having everyone sing the same way. I always remember and episode of Making the Band i saw with that group Danity Kane , and the girls were being shown singing styles by POOH BEAR, now first of all, POOH BEAR is a name for kids cereal not a singing vocal coach, and also his advice was awful, he basically was showing them how to oversing which led to one of them blowing their voice out.

meow85 said:

Wait a minute person....

Michael was coached by his father.... and practiced since he was 5 years old

many young artist today do NOT have that coaching from their parents.... they live their lives as normal kids and one day they get a record contract because they look good or can sing a little.. but really have not talent.. and NO kind of training...

the Jacksons were very young.. but they had lots of training.. and were professional even before they hit it big...

artist like Rihanna have no real talent when they start.. and takes them a while to start to really become an artist... it has been about three years since rihanna came out.. and now she is just starting to become an artist... but still has a long way to go....


IT does have a lot to do with AGE.... but coaching from the parents can be an acception to that rule... and thats if the kid has real talent...

Harlepolis said:

The most blunt way of putting it that there is an overwhelming lack of VARIETY and INDIVIDUAL CREATIVITY. I remember when most major acts had their own distinctive musical styles -- The Isley Brothers didn't sound like Earth, Wind & Fire, who didn't sound like Marvin Gaye, who didn't sound like James Brown, etc. Starting in the mid-1990s, the convergence of all the things I mentioned earlier left for a product where you have a homogenized set of ideas. All the damn acts sound the same, which is why I feel black contemporary popular music is so lacking.
[Edited 10/29/07 13:45pm]

purplesweat said:

Beyonce learnt in church WHERE? Beyonce did not learn in church. If she did, she did it from the pew. I have never seen a single interview where she has been asked how she got started and she said the ever so popular, "well, I started in the church choir". What we see from Beyonce is a result of work. There is nothing about this girl that says, "Natural Gift from God". She sounds like she was taught to sing and perform. Aretha, Patti, Gladys, etc., do not sound like they were taught to sing. Even when Beyonce does her little runs with her voice, it sounds far from natural and comes across as being forced.

I think the original poster is correct about the lack of the church influence in artists voices today.

vainandy said:

Well, what do u think of Mary's "Just Fine?" http://www.youtube.com/wa...-just-fine

lastdecember said:

Exactly.The merging of hip hop and R&B was a mistake.You got all these so-called "R&B singers" making music that sounds just like the stuff the rappers are making.There's no separation between the two genres.In the 80s,we had R&B and rap but for the most part,each genre had it's own identity.That is no longer the case.These days,when you buy an R&B album,you're basically getting a hip-hop album with vocals

floetcist said:

Exactly! Remember the days when R&B was actually R&B? I'm sick of seeing R&B singers using the same beats and music that the rappers are using! R&B is supposed to be about real instruments,real melodies and song structure,created by real producers who can play real instruments.It's a shame to see someone like Mary J.Blige (who can actually sing) being produced by someone like P.Diddy That's not my idea of R&B.

I can't see youtube videos on this computer but if it's Mary J. Blige, I already know I'm not going to like it.

She was one of the first I can remember that was singing over shit hop type music. The other singers during that time were singing either Shitney Houston type slow music or house/dance music.

SoulAlive said:

You took the words out of my mouth. I recently went to a party that my brother in law and his wife threw saturday night. It was supposed to be an 80's party. It turned out to be a damn hip hop party. They played a few nice 80's rap jams and a few michael jackson tunes but i am just sitting there bored as hell because there was no funk. It eventually turned into a current shit hop party because they started playing current hip hop songs like soulja boy maybe to please their 19 and 20 year old boys and their crew but i was laughing my ass off watching 40 year olds try to be hip with this soulja boy shit.
That's why i love the org because i get to politic with folks that love real music and learn a little history at the same time.

It's also because R&B and rap have become ONE genre. You can't tell the difference these days

phunkdaddy said:

I had a similar experience recently. It was supposed to be a reggae party, I mean I wasn't really expecting Steel Pulse or Black Uhuru but some Morgan Heritage or Sizzla woulda been nice instead they played some Sean Paul and soon after it turned into the T-Pain and Akon show.
I just left and went next door and chilled out with this random rock band. At least I got some Pink Floyd and Nirvana from them.

Najee said:

I remember that too. when everyone had their own distinct sound and style. You were never going to get Marvin Gaye mixed up with Stevie Wonder or Al Green because they all had their own unique style. And you were never going to mistaken Earth Wind and Fire with the Commodores, or get the Commodores mixed up with The Jacksons. Nowadays everything sounds the same.

One of biggest problems I have with R&B music is the incorporation of rap in Songs, and everyone does it; from Usher to Mary Blige, that's why when artists like John Legend and Alicia Keyes who keep the two genres separate people make them seem unique when they are not.
[Edited 10/31/07 15:38pm]

SoulAlive said:

She deserves a little more. She has had a few songs here and there that were well arranged and had a bit more of a band feel to them. Then came that album around 2003 where Diddy was giving her familiar rap beats to sing over. Man, her whole catalog can't look like a Kid Capri mixtape! I'm glad they're finally layin' off of that for her new stuff. I wish she could have that Atlantic/Jerry Wexler treatment though.

I seriously want hip-hop and R&B to have a nasty divorce. I'm getting sick of it.

Cinnie said:

Yeah, that "Love & Life" album was garbage. Actually "My Life" would've impressed me more if there wasn't so many samples on it. Maybe this album will be sample-free. I hope so anyway but you never know with Mary J. I'll be fine if she don't work with Puffy Bitch again.

I still love What's The 411 and My Life as they are, but eventually I expected more growth. We started to see it with "Not Gon' Cry" and the arrangement for her "Natural Woman" remake on Share My World (1997).

I thought Mary (1999) was a step ahead also, but then this decade she started to regress to me:

-here's Swizz Beatz () on No More Drama (2001)
-here's a whole album with Diddy, Love & Life (2003)
-here's her rapping and singing over 50 Cent beats or really stripped down productions, Breakthrough (2005)

Cinnie said:

Oh yes you got great points there! And she's damn near 40 now, how long can she keep the hip-hop/R&B up? Yeah I know she's the "Queen of Hip-Hop Soul" but I feel it's limiting to what she CAN do.

My in-laws would never let it get to that point. Their kids know better than to even look toward the stereo's way when there is a get-together. They usually all end up going in another room and playing their video games while listening to their shit hop on their boom boxes.

My in-laws are some serious blues lovers. That's basically all they listen to these days. Most of the blues is made right here in Mississippi so blues is real big down here. Personally, most of it depresses me and I usually end up talking them into letting me go out to the car and get either a mix tape or mix CD with some funk on it. They have a good time off of the music I bring but they would much rather be listening to their blues instead. They try to accomodate me a little, however they aren't going to tolerate shit hop in even the slightest form. They hate it worse than I do.

I not only want to see them get divorced, but I'd love to see R&B beat shit hop down worse than Ike beat Tina. Hell, even better, do an O.J. on it and brutally kill the shit.

Timmy84 said:

The problem would be the same - who gets to keep what?

vainandy said:

Now that's MURDER!

Cinnie said:

Maybe they'll just drop child custody altogether and leave them to fend for themselves.

It would be cool if MPC's were left to hip hop and R&B had real drums again.

I think "sampling" as far as vocal interpolations, replaying familiar bits, or cover versions in that sense R&B tends to reference older songs are actually older than hip hop and R&B will always have that.

Could you imagine Mary J Blige's new song with a real drum kit (unplugged style) and gosh real handclaps?

Timmy84 said:

It's certainly her weakest album (as well as her least successful one), but I wouldn't say it's out-and-out bad... just a little disappointing.


See, I think the most impressive thing is how well the samples are done. I absolutely love the idea: she heard those songs growing up and they're put together as a new collage to represent her life. Love it! Easily her best album IMO, which is impressive considering What's the 411? and Mary.

Mary's still the Queen of Hip-Hop Soul, but she's done some branching out. They were both fairly controversial, but the remake of "One" and the orchestral take on "Be Without You" at the Grammy awards were off her normal beaten path.
[Edited 10/31/07 3:35am]

AlexdeParis said:

While I see your point about using old songs that you remember growing up, I disagree with the it. A singer of Mary's caliber should not have to rely on samples to bring her point home. I am also certain that this was not Mary's idea. The producers were cashing in on the fact that nostalgia sells. Their thinking was, "Hell, the lyrics suck, but at least people will buy it because, the beats sound familar". Not to take anything away from Mary,she has certainly grown as a singer. As I said in my last post, the state of R&B has to do with many factors....the number one fact is, as long as these big corporation are in charge of what is being played on the radio this state will never change.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

You don't need to go to church to sing...

And among the artists you named, Trey Songz can sing...

vainandy said:

That's exactly the reason why Music is crap nowdays.

Vainandy represents everything I hate.

And all the kids now think just like him.

Music died when people accepted mediocrity as a norm.

How many kids I have seen on Youtube saying exactly the same thing.

How many kids saying how much they love T pain, even though they know very well that he can absolutely not sing. They only love him because he makes the hits that makes their asses shake.


The art of singing died when a generation of sensless people decided that crap singers are acceptable as long as they have their favorite producers behind and make hits.

And Vainandy is part of that generation.

And right now children of that generation grew up with that same shitty mentality and support crap singers like Britney SPears Pussycat dolls and T pain over real singers.

Music died when image and top producers became more important than singing and real talent.

Kids now don't care about singing, all they care is the producers behind and how they look.


That's why the Pussycats dolls, Britney Spears and T pain are the dominant artists in the charts.

They can't sing, and everybody knows it, but kids don't care. As long as they have the right music behind.

Music is dominated by talentless artists now.
They all can't sing, can't perform on stage, that's why they lipsync. They lip sync because they can't sing their own songs live on stage. The music industry is dominated by lipsyncers because a lot of kids don't care about singing. The non singers sell more records than REAL singers who don't have the producers that make people shaking their asses.

Give me Whitney Houston or Beyonce over all of your Madonna, Vanity Shit, Jenifer Lopez, Janet, Britney, Pussycats dolls all that crap who have dominated the music for the last 25 years.
And I don't give a shit how talented the producers are... And how uptempo their music is...


The art of singing has become so irrelevant these days, because too many people have adopted that same shitty mentality.

Vocally, this decade has been the all time worst. I can't name more than 2 or 3 artists who can REALLY sing. I don't even say great singers, because you have to go back to the 90's to find great singers.

And another thing FUCK IMAGE. When I was kid, artists didn't have to look good to sell records.

Producers and Image over Talent and real singing, this is what killed Music...

Music died when people accepted mediocrity as a norm.

We need to go back to the basics...
[Edited 10/31/07 5:35am]

krayzie said:

In all fairness, you're somewhat misrepresenting what vainandy is saying. What he is saying that he likes acts who have music creativity and talent who can make uptempo music. He has said repeatedly how he likes acts like Rick James, The Bar-Kays, etc. He repeatedly has said he likes acts like Blue Magic, The Intruders and The O'Jays.

What vainandy has a problem with is the type of songs some even great singers perform. He always has admitted that Whitney Houston is a great singer, but her music is decidedly boring because it became totally adult/contemporary in the late '80s and virtually every aspect of her music career seems to be a result of whatever is pop-friendly.

And for the record, he's stated numerous times that he hates those type of acts you named -- primarily, for their lack of talent and their uninspired music.
[Edited 11/2/07 18:08pm]