How come no one else ever makes the connection? People usually compare the album to prince or mj, and though I know where they're coming from, they forget to give freestyle music credit. Control sounds a lot like Freakazoid-Midnight Star, and Pleasure Principle reminds me of quite a few freestyle songs from 85-87. I'm sure janet was inspired by the likes of afrikka bambatta and debbie deb too, considering that she remade look out weekend, and sampled afrikka on 20 yo

alphastreet said:

Janet wasn't inspired by nobody, Jam & Lewis might have been, Janet just sat there looking dumb, and wondering why Jam & Lewis were calling all there Minnesota buddies to play a game called Amtrak on Janet Miss Jackson if ur nasty

qvgangsta18 said:

what is amtrak? it makes sense that jimmy and terry were inspired, considering that they ARE producers...lol

This album was straight loco-bananas!!!

alphastreet said:

train service!!

qvgangsta18 said:

WEll Janet must put SOME attitude in her songs because they are written by all three of them, and janet has a hand in playing some instuments, keyboard and percussions i believe. Plus her stuff sounds different than other artist J&T worked with. If anything after Janet people wanted to SOUND like her productions with J&T

paisleypark4 said:

Janet didn't write shit, she played the game called Amtrak well enough that they decided to give her some writing credits,
[Edited 10/10/07 16:04pm]

qvgangsta18 said:

well im not gonna say anything. After seeing New Edition play the drums, keyboards and bongos after thinking they dont know nothing about that..I was stumped. Y can't Janet? Mike plays the piano..why can't janet? Hell..we will never know.

qvgangsta18 said:

How freakin' cruel! Damn!

Who came up with the melody and guitar hook for Black Cat?

JANET.

Fall back bitches.

I can give you many more examples, but its 12:32 AM so kiss it.

can we get back on topic please?

alphastreet said:

IMO, "Control" doesn't sound remotely like the electro-funk music of circa 1983 and 1984. Based on interviews, Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were experiementing with some industrial sounds and using the computer technology of the time to alter them sonically. The title track doesn't sound remotely like Midnight Star's "Freak-a-Zoid" and former Time member and J&L associate Monte Moir (whose musical style tends to fall into the contemporary soul/urban jazz vibe) wrote "The Pleasure Principle."

On another note, where the topic diverted was when you chose language suggesting Janet Jackson was creating the music for "Control." Jam and Lewis picked her brain for ideas for what songs to create for her, but it's fair to say the songs undoubtedly were created primarily (if not solely) by Jam and Lewis.
[Edited 10/11/07 0:11am]

Najee said:

I already know control was more jam and lewis than janet, I was just in a hurry when typing. I already know about the time, prince, monte moir and all that, we all do. However, when I first heard Control sometime in the 90's, I thought of freakazoid right away. I still believe they sound similar. By the way, I was referring to the TRACK, not the album as a whole
[Edited 10/11/07 0:38am]

alphastreet said:

Well, it's not just "Control" but every Janet Jackson album involving Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis is the sound and production is basically theirs with JJ offering some input. It seems some JJ backers want to believe that she plays a much greater role in the creation of her music, as if she is a songwriting/production force on her own.

As Jimmy Jam has said consistently over the years, they encouraged Jackson to start writing some lyrics and being more active in the creation of her sound (like they have with other artists) during "Control" and by the end of those sessions she was contributing a few lyrics. The first song JJ actually contributed largely to the creation of a song was "Black Cat," which doesn't sound remotely like anything they produce. But typically the vast majority of JJ's music has the Jam & Lewis stock sounds of the time.

I knew you were talking about the song "Control," so I'm failing to see how you think that song sounds remotely like Midnight Star's "Freak-a-Zoid." If anything, "Control" was known for its sparse sound beyond the drum machine while "Freak-a-Zoid" is a song with a much more layered, heavy synthesized sound. "Control" also is known for its breakdowns while "Freak-a-Zoid" is a continuously uptempo song and is faster in tempo.
[Edited 10/11/07 5:32am]

floetcist said:

OH, YES! NAME IT! CLAIM IT! SAY IT! TELL IT LIKE IT MUTHERFUCKIN' IS!!!!!

Najee said:

No! It isn't fair! There is no proof Jam and Lewis created her stuff primarily if not solely when JAM, LEWIS AND JACKSON are credited with her stuff. So, unless YOU actually witness the creativity taken place, what you've said is opinion, NOT FACT!

DawnD said:

Janet Jackson's material has mostly the same stock sound as most of Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis' music during those particular periods. Some of her songs on "Control" and "Rhythm Nation" in particular sound very similar to some stuff Cherrelle made during that period. I feel that some of her diehard fans need to come to grips with the fact that JJ is as much of a product of the Flyte Tyme sounds are were acts like Alexander O'Neal, Cherrelle, The S.O.S band, etc.

It's funny some of you suggest that Jackson went from not writing and giving any creative input on any of her first two albums to suddenly telling two prominent producers what to do as if SHE is creating the sound. She evidently has never been proficient to create music on her own, which is why she uses the producers. She doesn't play instruments, at least none I've ever seen and certainly not to the degree she can create music on her own.

Jam and Lewis have documented many times that JJ gives them input on how to create songs and she even contributes a lyric or two (by writing some or tweaking what has been given her) -- which makes sense, given she known has more than 20 years experience watching those two (and to a degree other producers) do it. But you're tripping if you actually think Jackson is DIRECTING them on what to do or CREATING THE SONGS as if they are taking orders from her.
[Edited 10/11/07 5:59am]

Najee said:

Her sound was similar because the producers that produced Cherrelle and the others was the same. But, you behave as if she contributed NO imput whatsoever! This is what I'm saying to your being critical and in such a mood to critique. I'm not tripping, because I've never said, nor do i think that she directed them in ANY WAY shape form or fashion. I've NEVER thought THAT. That's simply the impression YOU got! I never thought that. It was a creative process from the three of them. You behave as if she was a puppet.
My thing is if she lack such limited talent why bother paying attention to someone with such limited talent? The woman is no a gimmick. Their may be some artists who are out now that fallinto that category.
But, it's unfair for any of us to say what she did and what she didn't do when none of us were in the studio. And, that's not tripping! That's a fact! Unless, you actually saw with your own eyes what's she's contributed to and didn't contribute you're going on what you feel and think! I'm going on credits and liner notes of her cds and not on what i feel and think.
Only one fact you've mentioned is the sound of music Jam and Lewis had for Janet as well as other artists was due to them producing her along with others. But, as far as what she's contributed or her lack of contributions to her own stuff based on your feeling is exactly that, YOUR FEELING.

najee, you seem to really have an issue with janet. Would you like to take it up in another thread if it's on your mind? Cause clearly, this thread isn't about that, and it's the second time in a week that a thread of mine has gone off topic. I know jimmy and terry produced for other artists too, and some janet fans aren't old enough to remember SOS Band and the like, but I think janet more or less gives input. I have interview from the janet. era and she talks about how this time she is doing a lot of the writing. Whether you want to believe it was her, jam & lewis or even rene is up to you. And hey, janet. and velvet rope sound different from control and rhythm nation, so although jimmy and terry were still working on it, janet had more input in the 90's, and that's when some of her most creative and emotional work was also released. During velvet rope, she also said in an interview that creating music is still a very new thing for her, so that implies she's been more involved in writing at that point in time.
[Edited 10/11/07 6:18am]

DawnD said:

Evidently, you don't read well. I didn't say Janet Jackson offered NO input to Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis in the creation of her sound. But it's been proven ad nauseum that Jam and Lewis are the creators of the music and they create the music to fit the personality and vocal style of the artist. That's no different than what they have done with most artists they've worked with over the years.

The problem is that some of you JJ zealots want to act like she is some proficient songwriting/producer talent, a la Luther Vandross or Stevie Wonder. She's not, quite frankly. She is as much of a product of the Jam and Lewis sound as most of the other acts with whom they have worked. Like most other acts, they encourage her to play a creative part in the creation of her music. I certainly don't think it's a knock against JJ by any means, but some of you do and in an effort to make JJ look superior to similar profile artists you delude yourself into thinking she's also a prolific songwriter and producer on her own.

I have no problems thinking she actually wrote a few lyrics or reworded some lyrics to fit her preference, but if you actually want to think she is playing some Spike Lee role in the creation of her music or actually programming drum machines and synthesizers while Jam and Lewis are little more than peons who jump at her every move, you're crazy.

P.S. The "you weren't in the studio" defense/rationale is a weak one, one that cannot be proven or disproven by either party. I don't have to be in the studio to hear that most JJ songs have the same stock elements of Jam and Lewis' music. Also, I would love to hear what you think are stock elements of Jackson's sound that would carry over to whoever was producing her music.
[Edited 10/11/07 6:35am]

alphastreet said:

I have no problems with Janet Jackson whatsoever -- that's a poor assumption. But given you're the same person who actually thinks "Control" sounds like "Freak-A-Zoid," how seriously should I take you?

Najee said:

And, your I don't have to be in the studio defense/rationale is a cop out!
I dig who I dig the same as you dig who you dig. But, it's unfair to shove down my throat your thoughts and feelings when you result to name calling such as zealots due to my not agreeing with you. She didn't have to play some Spike Lee role for her albums. Hell, not too many artists do. You have every right to believe what you chose the same as I do. However, you are quite forceful with your opinion. So, don't be surprise if I through your opinion back at you. And, calling me crazy was unnecessary. See, why does it have to come to that? We're discussing music! An artist's music. What's up with the name calling? Do you mean to say that you are unable to express yourself without resulting to such?
I tell you what! Why don't you believe whatever the hell you want and I will do the same, but you have absolutely NO right to dictate to me what I should with this: If you think, believe Janet such and such, you're crazy,nonesense.

Again, dig who YOU dig. Cause, I sure as hell am reguardless of your thoughts and feelings. I sure as hell am!

DawnD said:

Ranting and raving, while totally avoiding the comments at hand. And talk about taking things out of context -- saying "you're crazy" is a common euphemism of hyperbole, for goodness sakes. If you're going to be that sensitive you need to move on and not try to have a discussion.

Tell me, since she is such a prolific songwriter and producer on her own, what stock elements of Janet Jackson's songs do you think WOULD NOT BE THERE if it was just Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis making the music?

Better yet, there have been cases where acts have developed their songwriting and producing talents to a proficiency that they left a high-profile production team to create their own music (see The Jacksons, Toni! Tony! Tone!). Why hasn't JJ, who essentially have been associated with Jam and Lewis for 20 years?

The answer is easy -- JJ is not nearly proficient to do that. Hence, the Jam & lewis association and now asking other prominent producers such as Jermaine Dupri to help her create her music. I certainly don't think it's a knock against JJ by any means, but some of you do and in an effort to make JJ look superior to similar artists you delude yourself into thinking she's also a prolific songwriter and producer on her own.
[Edited 10/11/07 7:13am]

People, on this debate over her musical talents: Najee is right. In fact, her second husband was a ghost writer on RN 1814 and other subsequent albums. As for "Black Cat," I was under the impression that while she received sole songwriting credit, she was assisted by someone else whose name escapes me at the moment. The Janet fans should know.

Rodya24 said:

That's the whole point: If Janet Jackson developed into such a prolific songwriter and producer that she was telling one of the most successful production teams what to do, she would have been creating her own music by now without their or anyone's help. She surely wouldn't be running to people like Jermaine Dupri or Ne-Yo now.

That's been proven numerous times in popular music. The Jacksons did it. Tony! Toni! Tone! did it. Hell, Ralph Tresvant did it. If JJ has the ability, she wouldn't sweat it and do it on her own.
[Edited 10/11/07 7:28am]

Najee said:

Nope! calling someone crazy is an insult. It shouldn't been taken that far concerning discussion of someone's music.
Concerning the question of Why hasn't jj developed songwriting and production talents, why don't you ask her yourself since your opinion is so strong and forced. I like her writing. Just because you don't doesn't mean it hasn't been developed. Again, a matter of opinion.
And, see there you go! I'm not trying to make her look superior. I'm not trying to make her look any way. Where is all this coming from? I told you I'd gotten my info from credits and liner notes from her cds. Hell, I didn't write the credits nor did I write the liner notes. Just because I don't agree with you in all your forcefulness, doesn't make you right, but it damn sure doesn't make me wrong either. I didn't make up what she was given credit for concerning the infor on her cds. Now, if you have a problem with that I'm the wrong person you should take it up with. Just because you don't like something or find something wrong with it (ie, Janet's material) doesn't mean others have to agree with you or feel the same as you.
Who are you to force your belief on anyone on the org. If you feel janet lacks the ability to sing and or write and hasn't improved. So be it with YOUR feelings.
I love SPENDING TIME WITH YOU and allot of other songs she's written. I was under the impression that I could enjoy whatever artist i chose. And, i do.
You can't get with her material or think she's lacking in various departments, again opinion.
Just because you're not into a particular artist does't I along with others should agree with you and feel the same way, cause i most certainly do not!

Najee said:

But, so what? Artists have the right to work with whomever they choose! It isn't a crime!
Are you pissed because she's not in the studio alone!?
You all do know that you don't have to listen to her work, don't you? If she's lacking creativity why even care to comment? If she's falling short in some instance of artistry, why bother?