Tuls101 said:

Christopher Flynn
Martin Burogyone
Christopher Ciccone
Keith Harring

can you believe i spelled Madonna's last name wrong?
[Edited 10/11/07 14:09pm]

Tuls101 said:

Anne Sexton and Sylvia Plath? PLEASE!! Madonna is always naming impressive-sounding people that she is supposedly into. I remember someone questioning her on Joseph Campbell who she claimed to be a big fan of and it was obvious she barely knew anything about him.


Damn, that's naive. Madonna manipulated and fucked her way to the top. Her career is a triumph of CALCULATION. Remember, she only decided to go into music, aged 21, when she realised it would be easier to get famous that way than as a dancer. Even then, she actually expected to achieve iconic staus as an actress, but thought she could use music to get famous first. Now as it turned out, the acting thing didn't work out and so now she's lumbered with her second choice, music. Significantly, even in her acting career, she never actually put any effort into LEARNING THE CRAFT. She didn't want to take lessons or improve her chops. She thought it was a matter of just finding the right vehicle and sleeping with the right people (both her husbands were in the film industry and Warren Beatty was also a useful boyfriend). It never occured to her to master the craft, in the same way it never occurred to her to learn how to sing before starting a singing career. Fortunately, due to advances in studio technology she was able to get away with her weak singing voice, and due to the advent of video she was able to leapfrog many more talented artists who weren't as comfortable whoring themselves out. For Madonna that was second nature and she was rewarded very handsomely for her efforts. Sadly, she represented the future, as the likes of Britney and Christina can testify. That's her legacy. Like I said, the devil did a great job when he gave Madonna to the world. Just like Damian in The Omen films, she will not be stopped.
[Edited 10/11/07 14:12pm]
[Edited 10/11/07 14:12pm]

Tuls101 said:

Thank you for proving my point. It sounds like it was written by a 4 year old.

midnightmover said:

So basically, because she wasn't born a "musical genius" like Prince or Stevie etc that discounts everything she has done? Are you saying there wasn't room enough for these "more talented artists" AND Madonna? Madonna has been "improving her craft" since she wrote her first song. She's a sponge...she learns as she goes along. If you take most of her producers over the years...Bray, Leonard, Pettibone, Orbit, Mirwais, Price.....have you noticed how ALL of their best works are with her? What's the common denominator? AND all of the mentioned producers have said at one point or another that Madonna DOESN'T get enough credit for her musical prowess....thanks but I'll take Nile Rodgers word over yours. Even Bray who she had a sort of falling out with has since said she doesn't get enough respect for her musical intuitions, why doesn't he just slag her, what does he have to lose by "letting the truth" come out? There are so many fallacies in the response you wrote I don't even know where to begin. First off, I don't think she ever expected to become an ICON in any genre of the entertainment industry, she just wanted to express herself and get her messages (no matter how trite you or anybody else finds them) across. I don't know if you are male, female, straight, gay....but the whole "fucked her way to the top" comment is typical of what a straight man would say about her, simply because she has more balls than you ever will and that really bothers you. I'm sure you'd love to put her "in her place" right?

Although it's not much...GET INFORMED:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...urkh6GRL7A

This could be forward thinking....or her biggest mistake ever. Have to wait and see. At least I hope Live Nation encourages her to play a Michigan venue (most likely the Palace) if not more venues in general. These somewhat limited tours are for the birds.

Tuls101 said:

Most of this has nothing to with my post. I'm saying she used music to achieve fame based on things she herself has said throughout the years. She made no secret in the beginning of her lust for fame above everything else. She tried dance, then acting, then music. It was just a question of what would serve the ultimate purpose best. She also said she thought her film career would outlive all her other careers. Those were her words, not mine. You say she's been improving her craft as a songwriter. Are you joking? Her songwriting has deteriorated over the years, not improved, but as a Madonna fan you are too much of a philistine to know it. And please don't tell me it's all subjective because it's not. For instance I am a shit painter. If you were to put a painting of mine next to a painting by Rembrandt it would be obvious that he was better than me. If we can agree on that then we can agree that there is such a thing as objective standards. Madonna's lyrics in particular are APPALLING. CrozzaUK (a Madonna fan) hinted at this earlier when he said he wished Madonna would focus more on the quality of her output. She has obviously realised that her audience are mostly an unsophisticated bunch who don't care how poor the writing is.

As for this " she-has-more-balls-than-you-will-ever-have" bullshit, I have to ask, what the hell do you know about me? Nothing. I can see you're trying to get an angle on what my agenda is and you're struggling. You're struggling because my ethos is alien to you. I'm someone who loves music and art in general. As such I've had to accept the fact that music and art are being exploited, bastardised and raped every day because there is so much money to be made. The money and fame inevitably attract hucksters looking for what they can get. Now I'm sure many "real" artists (including Prince) are attracted to those things too, but they are motivated also by love of the art and a passion to excel in it. Madonna in many respects represents the opposite. Her mad hunger for an acting career, and her complete disinterest in actually learning how to act are another sign of this. Now, I realise most of what I'm saying will be Japanese to you and you won't understand, but at least now when you're looking for a box to put me into, you might be able to find a better one than "straight-man-who-wants-to-put-woman-in-her-place".
[Edited 10/11/07 15:29pm]
[Edited 10/11/07 15:34pm]

midnightmover said:

I can understand where purists such as yourself would take issue in the fact that her primary goal wasn't the passion for music. Her goal was to have her voice heard, to ahem..."express herself" and THAT she did and yes she did use music to gain that platform. So what? In the process she gained musical prowess and YES she has perfected her craft over the years, how could she not? She's been in recording studios for 30 years! Like A Prayer was a vast improvement over Lucky Star for example. Like any long term artist she has "peaks and valleys" so to speak in her career. Look at Prince, you can't tell me Planet Earth is better than SOTT. Does that discredit his artistry in any way? Absolutely not because the next album could be his best. Same with Madonna, most of her fans couldn't agree on an artistic peak for because she's had several (LAP, ROL would be my choices).

Again, I have to ask why is it that the work that she does with her producers such as Leonard, Bray, Pettibone etc are almost ALWAYS there best works? What is the one common factor in all of those equations? What would Steve Bray have to lose by letting us know "hey, she really DOESN'T do anything in the studio"? After all they've had a falling out already. Why does Nile Rodgers 20+ years on rave about Madonna's musical prowess and how she doesn't get enough credit for it? In fact ALL of her producers have said this.

The reason why I felt like I could "box you in" as you say is simply because your attacks against her aren't always in regard to her work. You call her a slut, she fucked her way to the top, she's a master manipulator....she's the fucking DEVIL!! Give me a fucking break. It's very transparent that there are other motivations for your Madonna hatred other than her lack of artistry.

Tuls101 said:

I'll skip over many of the irrelevant errors here and get straight to the bit that pisses me off (the bit in bold). First of all, I never called her a slut. I pointed out the fact that she used sexual favours to advance her career. The reason I did that was because you seemed to say that if other artists hadn't made it, it was because they can't have been all that good. A very naive statement. It may have been because they had scruples. I was pointing out to you that from the very start, her career has always been about cynical calculation. It's been the hallmark of her career. It didn't stop when she got a record deal. Her success was largely due to her sexual image. Well, not all female artists wanted to exploit themselves in that way. They got into the music business for music. Why do you think she's working with shit hop producers now? Because she admires their artistry? Please. This cynicism has paid off big time. She has triumphed over every other female artist and that is a depressing fact for anyone who values substance. That's the point. You seem to have missed it and would like to cast aspersions against me rather than listen to what I'm saying.

Madonna's music has been at best mediocre for sometime now, but because she has gimps like you in her backpocket it hasn't mattered. That sets a very bad example for the industry and for artists coming up in her wake. Yes, Prince hasn't made a decent record in years now, but he also hasn't had a hit in years, so mediocrity is not being rewarded. With Madonna the quality of the music is of less importance than the branding so she has stayed on top despite releasing garbage.

In recent times, heart and soul have become embarrasing, old fashioned ideas to many, and Madonna can shoulder quite a bit of the blame for that. That is my beef. Hopefully you can understand this now and not misrepresent me as you have done in your last two posts.
[Edited 10/12/07 5:38am]

midnightmover said:

I understand what you are saying. Joni Mitchell basically said the same thing one time: "Madonna has knocked the importance of talent out of the arena. She's manufactured. She's made a lot of money and become the biggest star in the world by hiring the right people."

And she's full of shit. It was inevitable with the advent and growing popularity of MTV that style would become just as important as substance. Madonna took that and ran with it, you call it calculating, I call it brilliant. A sexy image will get you in the door, but what's going to keep you in the room? Good music that's what. The fact of the matter is, if she didn't have good music to back up the image it wouldn't have worked for this long. The "she's using sex to sell herself" argument may have worked back then for her first two albums, but come on....the woman is pushing 50, she's hardly the "sex symbol" she once was. I would argue her sales suffered as she got more controversial and sexual, look at Like A Virgin's US sales vs. Like A Prayer's vs. Erotica. Each one sold about half of the other and Like A Prayer is generally regarded as her best album artistically. She has had mediocre moments and when she does her "mediocrity isn't rewarded" either...ie: American Life. The fact is though, she's more hit than miss and that bugs the hell out of people. But the general consensus of her last album from critics, hardcore fans and casual fans was that it was one of her best. Just because YOU don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's a bad album. YOU are in the minority in that case ya see?

I'd still like to know your opinion about this:

I have to ask why is it that the work that she does with her producers such as Leonard, Bray, Pettibone etc are almost ALWAYS there best works? What is the one common factor in all of those equations? What would Steve Bray have to lose by letting us know "hey, she really DOESN'T do anything in the studio"? After all they've had a falling out already. Why does Nile Rodgers 20+ years on rave about Madonna's musical prowess and how she doesn't get enough credit for it? In fact ALL of her producers have said this. Why do you think that is?

Martinelli said:

lmfao!!! damn. quote of the year i think.

No one....let me repeat, no one who respects music as ART, is into Madonna in any way.

lazycrockett said:

That's true.

VoicesCarry said:

Actually,the album was never intended to be released this year.Neither Warners or Madonna's camp ever gave a release date.Many fans speculated that it would be released in November,but there was never an official release date.The album isn't finished.I don't think Madonna is sitting around,worrying about Kylie and Mariah,or anyone else for that matter.

midnightmover said:

What an utter twat you are.

CrozzaUK said:

You guys should just ignore MidnightMover.His agenda is pretty obvious.

Graycap23 said:

Not even as a guilty pleasure? Just to dance to the tunes?

And BTW, judging by this thread, some people take her way too seriously!

Does anybody know if the venues that Madonna plays are Live nation venues? I just did a quick search and it says the Palace, the place she would most likely play again if she ever comes back to the Michigan, isn't one. She wouldn't just be playing Live Nation venues, would she? Does anyone think this would mean more touring?

BTW, wouldn't it make sense for her to do this after the last album is released. It's probably going to fuck things up. She won't tour until after this album, she won't release singles/videos and it's possible WB will just bag on the project, too.

CrozzaUK said:

and check this out, from page 2:

"but she has her claws so deep in the minds of gays (and women in their 30s) that she was able to bleed them dry nonetheless"--midnightmover

It's so obvious he has issues with sexism, whether HE realizes that or not, who knows? But are women and gays so weak they can't think for themselves? That's what I got out of his comment. Then when he harped on about Madonna fucking her way to the top and comparing her to Damien from the Omen...lol....that's when I felt like I could "box him in" as he liked to call it.

CandaceS said:

lol.....ur no.

I know 100's of professional musicians, not a single one has professed any respect 4 her outside of her marketing skills.

Graycap23 said:

Hundreds of musicians have also praised her as a musician and says she doesn't get enough credit. Credible ones too, like Nile Rodgers, Pat Leonard, Stevie Nicks, Debbie Harry...I can dig out quotes if you'd like!

a lot to be said about someone who has no talent.

Graycap23 said:

No offense,but considering everything that Madonna has accomplished,who cares what other musicians think of her? I really don't think she sits around worrying about who respects her,and who doesn't.Her amazing success and longevity speaks for itself.

Tuls101 said:

Midnightmover sounds like an old,bitter,jealous ex-boyfriend of Madonna's He supposedly hates her,yet he follows her career and analyzes her every move.So sad.

Tuls101 said:

Well, you remember what Q-Tip said, right? "Joni Mitchell never lies". Q got it right. Joni never lies.


Right here you have shown why you and the rest of the Madonna fans are incapable of understanding where I'm coming from. You are admitting that in the MTV age, style trounced substance. What you don't realise is that Madonna was able to benefit from that because she was never burdened with any genuine artistic impulse. The only impulse was the impulse for attention and fame. You mentioned Joni Mitchell. A genuine titanic talent and one of the best songwriters of the 20th century. Imagine for a second if she were starting out at the same time as Madonna. There is no way she would start vamping herself up for MTV. Not because she's less smart than Madonna, but because she knew her power lay in her musical talent. She believes in genuine excellence. That's what motivated her. This is not the case with Madonna. Madonna is a career strategist first and foremost. There's nothing wrong with that, but I respect the art above everything else and that's where Madonna falls short. It's not even that she's a sell-out, because she had nothing to sell out in the first place. She was an empty shell from day one.


Once again you're misrepresenting me. Of course she's not sexing it up like she used to. Madonna uses whatever strategy works best at the time. When that one stopped working she dropped it. With Confessions the strategy was to target the gay audience. If you deny that then you are either deluded or dishonest. One or the other.


First of all, the general consensus among her hardcore fans is meaningless, because as I've stated, they are a musically deficient bunch. The very fact that they can't see how atrocious Madonna's lyrics are provides ample confirmation of that. As for the critics I only read one review of the album. It was by Camille Paglia and, incredibly, she actually spoke about how poor the writing was on it. She also criticised the production. But there's something more important that you need to realise. That is that critics often talk shit. Bob Dylan or Bruce Springsteen could fart nowadays and Rolling Stone would give it five stars. Similarly, Madonna's longevity means that she is now very much given an easy ride by critics and commentators. You want proof of that? Well, let's look back to the all-time lowpoint of her recording career. The rap on American Life. A truly toe-curling moment. And yet, how much criticism did she really get for it? All things considered, not much at all. If a newer artist had embarrassed themselves so badly they would have been mocked about it so bad they would've never lived it down.

midnightmover said:

I give it up to anyone who not only knows who Camille Paglia is, and who goes out of their way to read her thoughts on a horrid madonna cd.


[Edited 10/13/07 10:52am]

Tuls101 said:

Sexist? Perhaps you'd like to tell that to blaqueknight who I took to task for making sexist comments about Joss Stone. Homophobic? Perhaps you'd like to tell that to totalalisa who I criticised for making homophobic comments. Once again you are showing just how narrow your thinking is. You simply cannot understand that my issue with Madonna stems from my respect for the art and my resentment at seeing an artistic nonentity triumphing over genuine talents. Because art is such a cheap commodity to you (though you don't know it), you can't understand how someone could possibly be motivated out of respect for it. You don't realise that I value integrity and sincerity, and that Madonna represents the triumph of the opposite ideals. I may as well be speaking Japanese right now, because these notions are completely foreign to you.

P.S. My comments about her "fucking her way to the top" may have been a little coarse, but they were also more than a little true. She slept with people who advanced her career. I didn't know that was some big secret. It seems you are far too focused on the way I say things rather than the actual content of what I'm saying. But then what could be more natural than a Madonna fan confusing style with content?

More on the possible Live Nation deal
Posted: 13 October 2007 - From Reuters/Billboard Via Yahoo! News
The following article talks in more detail about how the rumoured Live Nation deal would work out - including the fanclub:


If Madonna leaves Warner Bros. for an all-encompassing $120 million deal with Live Nation - as the Wall Street Journal reported this week - the concert promoter will struggle to make money on the deal, according to a Billboard analysis of the numbers.
The 10-year deal reportedly includes: $50 million in cash and stock for the right to promote Madonna's concert tours; a signing bonus of $17.5 million; and advances totaling $50 million-$60 million for three albums.
The deal is virtually unprecedented, likely driven by touring potential, but sources say it doesn't obligate her to tour. Last year, Madonna was second only to the Rolling Stones in gross touring dollars, taking in nearly $200 million at the worldwide box office and playing to more than 1.2 million people in just 60 shows.
Of course, gross is not net. A tour with high overhead like Madonna's might net only $50 million-$70 million on a $200 million gross, according to industry estimates. According to the Wall Street Journal, Madonna would keep 90% of touring revenue, 70% of merchandise revenue and 50% of licensing sales.
So, given these parameters, on a given tour cycle, Live Nation could theoretically be looking at $5 million-$7 million from ticket sales and maybe $6.5 million-$7 million from merchandising. Madonna has done three tours in the past 10 years. With three tours over the next 10 years, sans licensing and label revenue, Live Nation could earn an estimated $42 million; this is a conservative estimate that doesn't include potential ticketing, fan club and sponsorship revenue.
Things are dicier on the recorded-music side.
The 49-year-old pop singer sold about 20 million copies worldwide of her last three studio albums, according to sources. Her last album, 'Confessions on a Dance Floor' (2005), sold 1.6 million units in the United States, according to Nielsen SoundScan, and sold 7 million units worldwide.
With 20 million albums sold - and then, adding in new revenue streams of ringtones, subscriptions and whatever revenue comes down the pike from ad-supported sites - a traditional record label could get into striking distance of the generous advance paid by Live Nation.
If Madonna maintains her recent level of sales, a traditional record label probably could make a blended profit of about $3 per record, yielding $60 million in pre-tax profits, after marketing, distribution and royalty payments - not enough to match the advance. But Live Nation is not a record label, doesn't have a label infrastructure, and is gambling that Madonna can maintain the same level of sales.
If Live Nation licensed the album worldwide, Billboard estimates it could earn between $84.5 million-$98.5 million in revenue - not enough to make a profit - yielding a total revenue in the $126.5 million-$140.5 million range.
The tipping point for profitability could be Live Nation's ability to exploit Madonna's branding. Madonna's H&M fashion line, for example, is believed to have earned more than $20 million-plus in its first year. Live Nation could benefit substantially from future such deals.
The deal had not been confirmed by Friday evening, and Live Nation officials could be reached for comment.

midnightmover said:

Here's some advice: if you don't like Madonna,just ignore her.You spend WAY too much time analyzing her every move.The bottom line is,regardless of what YOU think of her,she's a multi-millionaire icon artist who has made her mark.Deal with it!

SoulAlive said:

No offense taken. I'm actually surprised that a Madonna could last this long. I give her credit 4 that alone.