This is a response to the guy who wrote the rant article about his dislike for the nominees of the 2008 Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction.

Well, among the artists this guy mentioned that hadn't gotten inducted after his errors in adding in Tina and Al's names as non-inductees (Tina was inducted with Ike in '91 and Al was in around '95), he mentioned these other artists:

KISS
Billy Preston (which I agreed with)
Linda Rondstadt (don't quote me but I swore he said her name)
Little Anthony & the Imperials (another I agreed with)
Aaron Neville

And an artist named Diane (Diana) Ross...

Now, I get the picture about how she and the Supremes were part of the American lexicon of popular music and culture but isn't this pushing it?

I mean, Diana Ross wasn't even a major contributor to rock & roll as much as she's credited for. In fact, she did more for entertainment in general than just music:

*Being the first black female entertainer since Dorothy Dandridge to get an Oscar nomination
*Winning a Tony Award for a one-woman Broadway concert
*Doing TV specials for middle America - critics of the basis of rock & roll.

In fact I dare say between 1968 and 1985, Diana Ross was the black version of Barbra Streisand.

The only songs that mattered in her solo career would include her cover of "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" (I still prefer Marvin & Tammi's version over her's), "Love Hangover" and "Upside Down".

Other than that she never did an album like Horses, she had a higher enthusiasm for jazz than she did contemporary pop/rock, she never mixed rock and dance until AFTER a certain recent nominee with whom this author has problems with her being nominated in the first damn place, she was a favorite of the adult contemporary circuit.

My feeling about the whole thing, I think she'd been inducted if her sound wasn't too adult conscious. She was the queen of Motown but probably more so for her sixties Supremes records than her solo records. If she had done more songs like "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" and "Remember Me" than probably she'll be in.

But she cashed in on genres though she wasn't really "respected" like Rod Stewart or anybody like that.

But in your opinion, why do you think Ms. Ross should or shouldn't get nominated at least for induction to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and do you think she gets too much credit (by the way that doesn't mean I don't like her getting the Kennedy Center Honor, I can see why they would give it to her because she was a pioneering entertainer) but in the essence of music, was she really that much of a musical trailblazer as people say she is?

Speak on it!
[Edited 10/5/07 22:29pm]

I agree. She should not be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame as a solo artist. Never understood her appeal.

Question: Does the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame have a set criteria? Other than commercial success, how has Diana Ross impacted modern popular music?
[Edited 10/6/07 14:17pm]

Really though would you induct someone who came out with a record called "Last Time I Saw Him"?

I think she could be inducted, She;s had a ton of hits as a solo artist and she is Diana Ross.

I agree about Lil Ant and the Imperials, they should have been in ages ago.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

My feeling is before Diane gets a solo induction, I'll say Dionne Warwick should get in and she had more "hit singles" than Diane. And she (Diane) is in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame as member of the Supremes.

Shocking semi-OT: you know that of the nine official members of the Supremes that only Diane, Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson were inducted but not Cindy Birdsong and Jean Terrell?

I wonder why...

In fact, WHY HASN'T DIONNE GOT AN HONOR FROM THE KENNEDY CENTER EITHER?! Is it because of that "psychic bullshit"?
[Edited 10/5/07 22:57pm]

Timmy84 said:

Can't believe Ms. Physic Friends is not in yet.

I look and Cindy and Jean not being in as Randy not being in with his brothers. Yet, Parliament and Funkadelic are in the Rock Hall.,

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Nah, I don't look at it that way. Cindy and Jean contributed as much to the Supremes as Randy contributed to the Jacksons. Only thing different is that Jean actually was responsible for the CONTINUATION of Supremes songs. I think the reason why they're not inducted may have to do with Mary Wilson's option to just have her, Flo and Diane in and also because people kept calling new Supremes songs "Diana Ross & the Supremes" songs or some shit like that.

All members of P-Funk and Martha & the Vandellas are inducted though and rightfully so IMO. Martha Reeves personally wanted to make sure all official Vandellas members were inducted. The more important O'Jays members with the exception of Eric Grant were inducted, I think, too.

Bump... come on now don't leave this thread hanging. Let's stop the Jacko curse with this topic now... and stay ON TOPIC.

absolutely, she`s one of the most successful female artists of all time.

I agree.

What’s difficult for us to do is completely divorce ourselves from all the amazing things that Diana did with The Supremes and that huge diva-like personality and just judge her musical accomplishments based exclusively on her solo career.

I mean most people would probably say, “Diana Ross? Of course she should be in, she’s Diana Ross!”

But this ignores, like you’ve properly corrected from this article, that she is already in the Rock ‘N’ Roll Hall of Fame.

I’m really not keen about anyone getting in multiple times, unless they’ve done extraordinary work in multiple places that cannot go unrewarded at the highest possible level.

It’s just not being able to put together a CD that packs several great songs, which Diana has clearly accomplished, but making great/important albums and/or so much great music that even a 2- or 3-disc collection could not possibly begin to tell the whole terrific tale.

And the Kennedy Honors is about the totality of her entire career, not just one facet of it.

And I think that Dionne Warwick’s great body of work will eventually put her over the top. But that Psychic Friends Network stuff certainly doesn’t help.

It made her more of an improperly maligned Dinah Washington, versus being the incomparable Sara Vaughan, Billie Holiday or Ella Fitzgerald.

**Screw my editor.**
[Edited 10/6/07 3:36am]

yep she should. she is larger than life than any female artist ever, including madonna. she's about as close to musical royalty as you're gonna get. that's like asking if mj should get in as a solo artist even though he's in with the j5

Fury said:

But Michael actually did something "revolutionary"... I don't see the same thing in Diane's work. JMO. I can understand why some of you would want her in there solo but for me, that's just giving her too much credit even if the Hall of Fame IS something of a joke... but then again, it IS called "the HALL OF FAME", lol.

Brendan said:

Yeah and that's why I'm not against that because she did a lot of good in that regard. She's a pioneer and trailblazer but the only time she was really a music "icon" is when she was with the Supremes. She just used what she got from there to help out in her solo career.

But really one of her biggest hits was a cover of a Marvin & Tammi song. another hit pioneered Whitney Houston's music ("Touch Me in the Morning", the song's writer later worked with Whitney), and two songs were produced by Hall of Fame nominees Chic. She only had six number-one pop singles compared to the Supremes' twelve yet for some odd reason they credit her with 18 number-one singles (if that's the case, they should credit Michael with 17, Paul with 26 or whatever, etc, etc, but they don't).

She was a hit maker no doubt during the '60s with the Supremes but only fairly well with her '70s and '80s work and then she dipped. She only got "legendary" solo-wise through her concerts really.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that to say she should be inducted would be like Barbra Streisand should be inducted too. Linda Rondstadt should be inducted, yes, Joan Jett should be inducted, Pat Benatar should be inducted, but Diana Ross' career in the same degree as Barbra Streisand and Bette Midler IMHO. She's looked on more as a singer-actor than just a "pure singer". I guess in those regards, this is why she would probably never get in and yes Elvis acted but the guy never had an Oscar nod.

In that way, Diane's too big for a Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction solo-wise because her career wasn't just as a pop star, it was as an entertainer. If Berry Gordy could buy Diane's solo induction, he would, but he set Diane up to be an world-class ENTERTAINER, in that sense of not only singing but acting, having her own television specials, going to Vegas.

To say she should be in for her "hits" I don't think that really counts. I mean she's great but come on, lol.

I think she should be inducted as a solo artist.Come on..she was one of the most successful female artist of the 70s,and even had a successful career in the 80s.She even got an Oscar nomination in 1972 for her performance in 'Lady Sings The Blues'.In many ways,Diana Ross is larger than life.Beyonce is striving to be the new Diana Ross

.
[Edited 10/6/07 10:22am]

SoulAlive said:

PLEASE! They ain't no Oscar nominees who are Rock & Roll Hall of Fame inductees, man.
[Edited 10/6/07 11:28am]

Double post.
[Edited 10/6/07 11:28am]

Timmy84 said:

I'm aware of that I'm just trying to point out how successful she was back then.She accomplished alot.

Timmy84 said:

C'mon, you lost some credibility here. Have you ever heard of a song called "Endless Love?" "I'm Coming Out?" "Missing You?" Diana Ross has quite a few songs that have been remembered over the past 30 years just on name recognition.

According to Billboard magazine's ranking system (based on peak chart position and radio airplay), Ross ranks as the No. 29 artist in the soul music genre. The Supremes ranked No. 31. She had a run as a solo artist that ran its commercial peak for roughly 20 years. It sounds like you're casting a much bigger shadow over her success as a solo artist. I'm not exactly a fan of her music, but to suggest she wasn't a successful enough recording artist to merit consideration is stretching it.
[Edited 10/6/07 12:31pm]

Najee said:

I give you that with "I'm Coming Out" and "Missing You" and "Endless Love" but as much as successful as she is (and yes she was really successful) but in terms of how her career was versus the career she had with the Supremes, it would seem like she'd get in on the purpose of "hits". To me, she's too big for the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. And "tons of hits" and memorable songs (as they are) don't always make an induction however on those purposes they do need to change the way they induct artists. I just don't see the big deal. She's been hugely criticized for "selling out".

Yes of course. Diana has had plenty of hits as a solo artist and is one of the most influential female artists of her generation, she should def. be inducted.
[Edited 10/6/07 14:03pm]

Timmy84 said:

And what in the world does that have to do wtih anything? None of that takes away from the fact that Diana is one of the most successful and influential female artists that ever lived. She was really the first black female to cross over to the mainstream so yes she is a big deal. Countless artists from Lil Kim to Beyonce have said they have been influenced by her.

I just think you're letting your dislike for Diana Ross as a person get in the way. I can think of a lot more reasons why she should be inducted than not.
[Edited 10/6/07 14:08pm]

And also I didn't necessarily meant success, I meant "impact"...

Ok, let's break her "hit songs down":

"Reach Out and Touch (Somebody's Hand)" (#20 pop, #7 R&B) - this song can be good enough for her to get in the Hall of Fame (but then again so does songs like "What the World Needs Now is Love", "Walk on By" and the like).

"Ain't No Mountain High Enough" (#1 pop, #1 R&B) - great for the spoken word interludes and the background gospel-like choruses, but too overly dramatic compared to the original, which has been regarded as one of the greatest Motown recordings ever.

"Touch Me in the Morning" (#1 pop, #5 R&B) - this song was something of a '70s chestnut but is it memorable for being a groundbreaking song? Nope.

"Do You Know Where You're Going To" (#1 pop, #14 R&B) - this song is probably one of the reasons why she AIN'T in though in retrospect the opening lyric has been constantly repeated in hip-hop though I bet that don't matter to the "hall of fame"< I guess.

"Love Hangover" (#1 pop, #1 R&B) - ok, this song was a perfect return to the top for Diane. It mixed pop balladry with a funky dance instrumental. This song would be essential for a Rock & Roll Hall of Famer, yes?

"Upside Down" (#1 pop, #1 R&B) - in the middle of the Chic "revolution", so to speak. Probably one of the first songs to create what became the modern pop song. But then again, I give full credit to CHIC!

"I'm Coming Out" (#5 pop, #6 R&B) - much like "Upside Down" - the work of CHIC.

"Endless Love" (#1 pop, #1 R&B) - ok, this song with Lionel Richie IS one of the greatest love songs ever recorded but for some reason I don't feel this would give Donna "automatic entry" for some reason.

"Why Do Fools Fall in Love?" (#7 pop) - a cover of a song that shaped rock & roll, lol. But she turned it into such a tepid version.

"Muscles" (#10 pop, #4 R&B) - the campiest song she ever did that became a big hit, though I give credit to Michael for this.

"Missing You" (#10 pop, #1 R&B) - this was essential to R&B, yes, I agree.

And songs in between like "Remember Me and "Mirror, Mirror" were good, I guess.

But any of these songs except for "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" and "Endless Love" (which was a DUET, mind you) as essential as "Respect", "At Last", "Last Dance", "Teardrops from My Eyes", "Midnight Train to Georgia" and the like when compared to her soulful counterparts.

Patti LaBelle can be in for the same reason as Diane Ross but the two of them are ballad-oriented for the most part. It won't meet their "standards" and really I don't see why they even should be there. Their legend doesn't have to be confirmed by an induction (though it HELPS). I'm not dissing Diane but I just feel she already made her "mark" with the Supremes. Everything after that was extra.

And since SoulAlive mentioned "well Michael got in there as a soloist", well, maybe the reasons for it were for the ALBUMS "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" and for him defining MTV. Diana defines the modern pop diva but I think in the grand scheme of things, she'll continue to be overlooked.If she is going to eb inducted, I hope it won't be because fans protested it to. And either way it's too late to even get mad over it. Diane was eligible in 1995, I reckon she'll probably be nominated.

So when I mean in terms of how important her recordings are, I didn't mean in terms of how much radio airplay it got, but in what kind of impact it played overall.

In truth, her solo career started in 1967 when Florence Ballard left the Supremes and the group's major hits afterwards were sung only by Diane. Songs like "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together", both of which are career-defining songs. But I feel that since dealing with Berry Gordy, a lot of things occurred that makes it impossible for Diane to get recognized by the Hall of Fame.

In these respects, that's why I said Diane shouldn't be inducted. It ain't worth the time.

Najee said:

Diana has had amazing longevity.She's had big hits in the 60s,70s and 80s.Her solo career has been extraordinary.

Cinnamon234 said:

After Dionne, right? I don't deny that she was one of the first to cross over, but hell, I can say the same thing about Ella Fitzgerald (not Lena Horne because she kept getting f*cked). Diane just further that movement. But in terms of her full entertainment career. Musically she did well solo but I could state the reasons for Diane not to be inducted is not only for biased reasons but for the fact that in her whole solo career, she was much as a pop music legend as she was an entertainment icon. She was more like Barbra Streisand than Aretha and in those respects that's why I feel she'll NEVER get in. The Kennedy Center Honor is more respectable to her because it showed that she's getting props for breaking down doors so I'm not knocking that. But I don't see the big deal of her getting the Hall of Fame induction and for what? Like I said, there's artists too big for the Hall of Fame in actual truth. I wasn't throwing no shade at her if that's what you thought. In a way I'm 50/50 with her. Career wise people like Beyonce and 'em are influenced by her but when it comes to music though, it seems like, in Bee's case, she was more influenced by Donna and Tina and Aretha. But neither of them were able to do what Diane did. Doesn't mean that she has to be in the Hall of Fame solo-wise to prove she's an "influence". I mean I wouldn't be upset if she was but I just feel that she won't get in.

The 1st black women to cross over to mainstream? Whateva happend to Eartha Kitt and Josephine Baker, just to name a few? They're as iconic as her if not even more.

I'm all for Diane's defence but she wasn't the one who lit up the torch(as far as mainstream's concern) people need to get their history str8.

As a solo artist? Hmmm. I don't think so. Her impact on popular music and culture was with the Supremes, and she's already in as a member of the group. I don't see the need for a Diana Ross to be in twice.

Harlepolis said:

YES!

And she wasn't even the first major black female pop/soul star. That was Marie Dionne Warrick (a/k/a Dionne Warwick). In 1963, Dionne's first major overseas tour was in Paris way back in 1963 when she opened for Marlene Dietrich. In that sense, Diane came way after the ladies you mentioned and Dionne.

I credit the SUPREMES for being the first black pop group to gain international acceptance. Diane wouldn't be where she was at without being in the Supremes and Motown Records and she knows it too. When she got the BET Award, she said she was representing not herself but Motown.

And yo, if Diane's gonna be inducted in your eyes, get Dionne in too. And at the same time as I bet they're gonna do for Madonna and Donna. I mean it's only fair, right?

Timmy84 said:

I'm just @ the fact that Dionne didn't get inducted.

I mean, who ELSE put the David & Bacharach legacy in the map?

Ssssssick!

Timmy84 said:

How about "Slik Electric"?
The more I think about it, while she has a good voice and is a hellvu an entertainer, her solo career is nothing to crow about sans a few really disco good albums that where sort of more about the songwriters and producers than her ("The Boss" and "diana"). I'm not very familar with her entirely catalog but I think the eighties became kind of embrassing even though she scored some big pop hits here and there.

I really don't know about her as a solo artist but no one can argue with the Sumpremes. I think when they were on, they totally trumped the Beatles!