Harlepolis said:

Her not being inducted is really an insult to me too. I LOVE ME SOME DIONNE WARWICK TOO! Now if anyone has got shafted, it's Dionne. She ain't even got the f*cking Kennedy Center Honor and she really was the one to define female pop/rock in the '60s all by her lonesome! I'm telling you it's that damn Psychic Channel bullshit. Get past that and look at her for what she is: a real true pioneer. The Supremes actually were modeled after the likes of Dorothy Dandridge, Diahann Carroll AND Dionne Warwick yet Diane's credit for being "the first". No hate but that's some straight up bullshit.

Timmy84 said:

Nothing personally, Timmy, but it sounds like you're trying to come up with a reason for not inducting Diana Ross into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. She had an incredible career beyond The Supremes and outside of Aretha Franklin her solo career and impact can stand with any female in the soul music genre. Ross is the template for the glamourous female singer (or "diva") such as Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, post-"If Only You Knew" Patti LaBelle and Beyonce today.

Ross had 32 top 20 singles, 19 top 10 singles and 5 No. 1 singles on the Billboard R&B Singles charts (with two other songs going No. 1 on the pop charts, giving her seven overall) -- outside of what she did with The Supremes. The fact you're trying to downplay her success by overlooking songs ("Endless Love") and inventing doublespeak only speaks of an apparent bias you have against her. If anyone outside of Ross had that kind of success, would we even be debating it?

Not to be ugly, but didn't you try to make an argument for Natalie Cole being inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame? How can an argument be made for Cole but yet not Ross, who was more successful and had a greater impact than Cole? It would be one thing if Ross had moderate success as a solo act, but she didn't -- she was a viable player nearly two decades AFTER leaving The Supremes with some very successful and memorable songs. So yes, snubbing Ross WOULD BE A BIG DEAL.
[Edited 10/8/07 8:52am]

VinnyM27 said:

If she have worked a few more albums with Ashford & Simpson like for all of her solo work, I think she be a shoo-in by now. But that's why I'm mad with why they ain't induct Dionne. She worked some ten years with Bacharach and David and they ain't give her SHIT. Diane was a gem when she worked with Ashford & Simpson. I love "The Boss" and "Remember Me". She was also good with Chic and Lionel but when she worked with the Gibbs, I don't know, something just didn't sound right. Compared "Chain Reaction" to "Heartbreaker", lol.

The prob is Diane's solo career, as successful as it has been, wasn't as spotless as some people claimed. Like she'll hit a high then for a while she'll hit a low and would do movies, then when her solo singles outside "Touch Me..." wasn't working, she teamed up with Marvin and both of them were able to benefit from a brief drought the both of them went through considering albums. "Love Hangover" and "Do You Know Where You're Going To" presented two very different Diane's: the latter the type of Diane song we were being used to at this point and the former she headed towards Gloria Gaynor-town and Donna Summerville.

Successful, though. The thing I love about "Love Hangover" was its instrumental intro. Then when it picked up. I loved Erykah's interpretation of that particular song. Then she hit a lull again, lol. Then she got back with "The Boss" and "Upside Down" and "I'm Coming Out" and between 1979 and 1985 was really at the highest she was solo-wise. "diana" remains her biggest-selling album ever (I think it has sold around five million worldwide or something like that), then she had a few successful years at RCA after leaving Motown with "Why Do Fools...", "Mirror, Mirror" and "Muscles", then she hit a brief lull again (anybody remembers her '83 "Ross" album?) before coming back with "Swept Away" and "Missing You", then she hit a lull again in the US. I think around the '80s, some people thought Diane was "selling out" (check out YouTube and search for this Diana Ross documentary, they were accusing her of going straight pop). "Chain Reaction" bombed in the US but somehow became her first number-one UK single since 1971's "I'm Still Waiting". Then she never came back out of that lull.

Her career has been mostly spotty but she was able to leave a "mark" so again I ain't knocking the hustle. She did what she had to do. And she is an icon so it benefited her for producing solo hits between 1970 and 1984 and that's a good fourteen years.

In terms of her most important singles:
1.) Reach Out and Touch
2.) Ain't No Mountain High Enough
3.) Touch Me in the Morning
4.) Do You Know Where You're Going To
5.) Love Hangover
6.) The Boss
7.) Upside Down
8.) I'm Coming Out
9.) Endless Love (w/Lionel)
10.) Missing You

She's got an impressive collection but compare that to Aretha, Dionne, Gladys and Donna - I actually think she and Donna are tied in the number of singles that played an important role in their careers. If the committee had based it on those important looks, then she'd be in there a long time ago but let's compare it to:

1.) "Where Did Our Love Go?"
2.) "Baby Love"
3.) "Come See About Me"
4.) "Stop! In the Name of Love"
5.) "Back in My Arms Again"
6.) "I Hear a Symphony"
7.) "My World Is Empty Without You"
8.) "Love is Like an Itching in My Heart"
9.) "You Can't Hurry Love" (which IMO is the greatest Supremes song ever in Diane's era)
10.) "You Keep Me Hangin' On"
11.) "Love is Here and Now You're Gone"
12.) "The Happening"
13.) "Reflections"
14.) "Love Child"
15.) "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me"
16.) "Someday We'll Be Together"

...and you can tell Diane's greatest era of IMPACT was in the sixties. That's when she became an icon to me. Her getting inducted as a member of the Supremes was validity enough for me to say that she's earned that spot. Her greatest work, just like Dionne/Bacharach/David were with Holland-Dozier-Holland without a doubt. And this is the reason why she's getting a Kennedy Center Honor -- for representing love, peace and hope in a turbulent decade (the '60s).

Now if we compare that to Paul McCartney's solo work versus his Beatles work, oh hell, she should've been inducted. Why they induct his corny ass? I can see in those regards why Diane would get in there solo but Paul ain't shit compared to Diane but anyway that's besides the point.

And besides that, the Supremes actually outsold Diane between 1970 and 1972 with their albums and singles.

Their "Right On" charted higher than Diane/Supremes' "Farewell" album, "Up the Ladder to the Roof" and "Stoned Love" were top ten hits in the '70s (yeah none of them reached number one but they did very good in 1970) and are regarded as classics.

Then they had a succession of five consecutive top forty hits before lineup changes and management problems dismantled the group altogether but they didn't fade out shortly after Diane's departure:
1.) River Deep - Mountain High (w/the Four Tops)
2.) Nathan Jones
3.) Floy Joy
4.) Automatically Sunshine
5.) Your Wonderful Sweet, Sweet Love

Now in terms of her career overall, the music was always never enough. She, like Cher, like Barbra Streisand, like Dionne Warwick (to a very lesser degree since she struggled in the mid-'70s) and like Bette Midler expanded her audience to compete with those women. She and Dionne really were the only two black women attracting a worldwide audience (Dionne was already well-established solo wise by the time Diane left the Supremes, people forget that) in those regards. But Diane stretched further with her one-woman Broadway special, she did, I think, three TV specials - two of which were mainly variety specials, she got the occasional movie role and won an Oscar nod. I mean I agree Diane has had an amazing career. But I think in terms of her impact, the radio nowadays mainly play her Supremes records.

But shockingly, I haven't heard Diane's solo songs in years, maybe a little "Endless Love", then "I'm Coming Out" and "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" but not much after that. If you can find a lucky radio station that'll play most of her stuff, cool. They treat her like Michael around here.
[Edited 10/6/07 20:02pm]

Well, since you mentioned Paul McCartney being inducted as a solo artist, I can see why some would argue for Diana Ross to be inducted as well. Perhaps it is because of my bias as a John Lennon fanatic, but if Paul was inducted for his post-Beatles work, then it would only be fair for Diana Ross to be inducted as well for having sustained great commercial success after leaving The Supremes. And like Najee said, she was significant in creating the diva persona in modern popular music and entertainment. Although, if she is inducted, like you said, Timmy84, Dionne Warwick should be inducted as well.

Rodya24 said:

Hey it's only fair. If Diane ends up getting inducted (not saying she won't because it's a possibility she may end up a nominee sometime next year, you never know with them motherfuckers), then Dionne should get in either at the same time or "just before" Diane gets in. Then we'll be even and call it a day.

All of our favorite "divas" will be inducted except for Janet Jackson - now to me right now she's a question mark but if Madonna goes in, I think Janet will go in one day, who knows?

But these are the years the "divas" were eligible (those that are not inducted yet):
*Mary Wells (the FIRST Motown star and "original Queen of Motown") (1986!)
*Dionne (1987)
*Linda Rondstadt (1992)
*Diana (1995)
*Natalie Cole (2000)
*Pat Benatar (2004... she's got time)
*Joan Jett (2006 or 2004, I'm not sure, when did she and the Blackhearts' debut album came out? '79 or '81, I'm confused... )

And let's not forget the girl groups that NEED to go in al-fucking-ready:
*The Marvelettes (nominated TWICE but still no cigar... the fuck?! And they were eligible in 1987 too; the Supremes got in FIRST FUCKING YEAR OF ELIGIBILITY if I'm not mistaken)
*The Blossoms (I don't know why the fuck they're not in)
*The Pointer Sisters (ok, if we're gonna get Donna and Diane, these girls should come in too but I guess some here might disagree)

I feel Tammi Terrell should get an induction alongside Marvin for their fabulous duet recordings (I made a petition about that a while back, lol)

They need to induct all the Motown women if Diane's gonna get in there solo, it don't make no excuse why Diane's supposedly getting shafted when Mary Wells and the Marvelettes (the real Marvelettes) still get overlooked. In terms of impact: "My Guy", "Please Mr. Postman", "Two Lovers", "Beechwood 4-5789", "You Beat Me to the Punch", "Don't Mess With Bill"...

COME THE FUCK ON NOW!

Bring in Carole King for her solo work! I thought she'd be included for Tapestry alone... the hell?!

Shit, goes to show you that you don't know what people be thinking. I just hope they don't induct Beyonce or whoever then the Hall of Fame would really be a fucking joke.

Too bad some of the women Diane influenced can't amount to nothing musically when compared to La Ross.

Shit... in all the madness I forgot Carla Thomas... she was the queen of Memphis soul, yet she seems to be forgotten too by the committee. That "Gee Whiz" had a big impact and yet the committee hasn't sought to induct her either.

A lot of women are missing that should be in there and not necessarily Ms. Ross.

Najee said:

Oh really? Well unlike you I do have an appreciation for Diana Ross, I'm just fucking with y'all. I was saying all this shit just to see what the fuck y'all were gonna do and y'all were PITCHING A BITCH! Of fucking course I think Diane should be in the Hall of Fame solo. Just not in the reasons y'all state but in my last big essay beforehand.
[Edited 10/6/07 22:01pm]

Timmy84 said:

You could have fooled me with your "appreciation" of Diana Ross. Whenever her name has come up, you're calling her "Diane" and understating her career, particularly when she left The Supremes.

Najee said:

Shit... I respect her hustle, man. For anyone to come out of Detroit the way she did, no way would I think she was "worthless".

IMO (which is the one that matters to me) Diana Ross RULED The 70's. Her name alone was the epitome of Soul and Sophistication. Her movies, her hits, yeah: Diana Ross was Le Shit! LOL. But I feel her attitude eventually got in the way and turned people against her. It turned ME against her, I know that. She took that "Diva" shit just a tad bit too far. But certainly, I think she's earned her place in the Hall of Fame, even based on her solo career.

PDogz said:

Exactly! If anything, her career speaks for itself but yeah I think the attitude, the annoying big hair (seriously when Diane sported a short bob or wavy long hair she looked HOT) and the overdramatically big productions kinda hinder her. I blame it all on the shoulders on Berry Gordy for even putting her in a pedastal. She's never got off since but she's cool.
[Edited 10/7/07 9:45am]

Well its a tough call in all seriousness. Mainly because Eric Clapton is in the hall of fame 4 different times, hes in solo, as a CREAM,Derek and the Dominos and also the Yardbirds. Now im not saying that Eric wasnt a force in music, but i debate all these side jobs going in. I think with that you would almost have to put Diana in as a solo artist just based on the Suprmemes being in it already and Diana having a widely successful solo career, though commercial success isnt a criteria for the Hall, it doesnt seem to hurt anyone.

Timmy84 said:

Evidently you don't, considering you actually think it's debatable whether Diana Ross should be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame as a solo act. It's a ridiculous question, IMO, not to mention if it's based on some BS notion that she should be punished because she was the member of an already-inducted group.

You have to look at The Supremes as one entity and Diana Ross the solo artist as another entity. Punishing one because of the other is senseless, IMO. You have to question someone's intentions and logic because this is a common-sense issue, IMO.
[Edited 10/8/07 8:47am]

of course diana ross deserves to be in there on her own, i was surprised when i heard she wasnt there already. its no way you can make a case for a donna summer and not diana ross.

lastdecember said:

Which is why the Hall of Fame's reasoning can be a bunch of bullshit. Obviously both Eric and Diane are legends but I still don't see the reasoning why he's in there four times. Yeah, he played in the Yardbirds (1962-64), the Dominoes were only around one year (and so was Blind Faith or at least Eric was there for one year) but when you talk about Eric Clapton, they talk about his work with Cream and his solo work. IMO, "Layla" is a solo Eric Clapton classic featuring Duane Allman.

In those regards and the reason why Paul's there two times (I don't think he's in there for the Wings ) and Michael, yeah you can make a case for Diane to be in there. Who knows what the fuck they be thinking?

Dina Ross is very much a living legend, helped knock down many doors, is greatly important and admired by many cultures, and has a huge, undeniable personality.

If this were the Hall of Fame for entertainment, the question would not be debatable, as her name, her image, her impact goes without question.

But this Hall of Fame is primarily about music. Personality and other entertainment choices surely play a role in getting the music heard and played, but they don’t make the music any larger or better.

And I don’t think that Eric Clapton should be in 4 times, perhaps just for Cream and his solo work.

It’s just weird how it works out sometimes, because I wouldn’t deny those other great groups single entry. But no one is that great. In fact, he, just like Dina Ross, requires some real thought.

And, to be fair, Eric Clapton is a no-brainer when considering his entire musical career, but it becomes far more complicated when you start dicing and slicing it up.

People that are above thought, who are automatics based primarily on their musical contributions, are people like James Brown, Jimi Hendrix, Aretha Franklin, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Prince, and about 40 or so others.

Those are the simple choices. But if you start talking about all these others entertainment choices, all of these people fall far away and Dina Ross rises to near the top.

And as has been said already said, Diana is bigger than the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

But when you slice up her career into just music and just as a solo artist, is it in fact enough?

I don’t know the right answer. I certainly wouldn’t mind if she got in a second time, as she’s done so much compared to some who have just been inducted once.

But to me this should mostly be about the music, even if it The Hall sometimes gets it twisted by naming someone like Chubby Checker whose impact on the early dance scene may have been incalculable, but didn’t exactly set the music world on its ear.

It’s very difficult. I wish I could pick up a 4-disc boxed set of her solo music and marvel and not only it, but just how much greatness was left off.

But I’m just not hearing that kind of musical legacy.

But perhaps that’s just my own private hope, that the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame will mostly be about the music -- not the unquestionable cornucopia of entertainment and personality.

In short, I’m glad that I don’t have to make such difficult decisions. I can just sit back and criticize from the couch.

Very nice thread and very nice thoughts.