Timmy84 said:

Like I said, I feel if SoundScan was available in the 1980s some of Michael Jackson's charted songs on the Billboard R&B Singles charts would be affected adversely. C'mon, when did you ever hear "Beat It" or "Dirty Diana" on a soul station? Songs like "Smooth Criminal," "Black or White" and "The Man in the Mirror" are songs I've only heard white, non-soul music fans play and they surely were not in rotation with the likes of Guy, Bobby Brown, Luther Vandross and Keith Sweat.

The reason those songs charted so high is because their numbers were mixed in with the top 40 format's numbers and the apparent blind assumption that since MJ was a prominent black act who historically charted on the soul charts the brothers and sisters were eating it up more than the white people.
[Edited 10/3/07 21:31pm]

Najee said:

Yeah and "Dirty Diana" was what I consider a rock song. I HARDLY hear it on urban stations and if I do "it's a Michael marathon" or an "'80s thing".

Najee said:

Preach is what the prophet said! I agree MJ fell off with BAD..,good album but not great..hard to follow up Thriller though, but I think MJ made Thriller a must have after Motown 25 though,,,b4 then not much noise...

Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. Even though Janet was making hard music in the late 1980s and Shitney was making the total opposite with weak, adult contemporary bullshit, a lot of the same people that liked Janet's music also liked Shitney's music.

It's because jams had become so damn scarce in the late 1980s. In the early 1980s, you didn't have the same people waiting on Lionel Richie's new release that were waiting on someone hard like The Barkays' new release. I don't know, people just seemed to lose a lot of their taste in the late 1980s. Actually, I think a lot of people "settled" for the weak shit because jams were becoming so scarce. Not me though, I bitched and have bitching ever since. I talked about that little miss goodie two shoes barbi doll cheerleader like a dog every chance I got.
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[Edited 10/4/07 0:32am]

You can say that again! That's why I can't stand her ass.

That's exactly how it was in my area also. By the late 1980s, a lot of black people were sick of Michael Jackson, Lionel Richie, and Turner Turner and did not think they were "all that" like white people did at the time.

However, black people in my area were going wild over that damn Shitney Ass Houston. It used to make me sick because she was the weakest damn thing I had ever heard. I think she did so well because she appealed to a lot of females. A lot of females never did like hard stuff so Miss Shitney was right up their alley. Then I would see guys that I grew up with (who had been into much harder stuff) going to her concert of buying her records. They would say...."My woman likes her, plus she's fine". I'm thinking to myself...."Fine don't make the asses shake and if your woman likes her, let her go to the concert with her girlfiends. If she wants to hear her music when she comes over to your place, she needs to bring her album with her. Don't buy that album because you will boost that heffer's sales and she will never go away".

I thought it was great. That booing was like an orgasm to my ears. I wish I could have been there in person. Not only would I have been the main one that started the crowd booing, I would have got the crowd into such a frenzy, they would have started throwing things on the stage.
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[Edited 10/4/07 0:35am]

vainandy said:

I would say to a degree you are right, but the Whitney Houston songs that most black radio stations played and that resonated the most with soul music fans were stuff like her duet with Teddy Pendergrass ("Hold Me"), "You Give Good Love," "Saving All My Love for You" and "Thinking about You."

By the time "How Will I Know" became a huge hit, that was when you saw Houston's marketing focus (and fan base) become decidedly pop. I never heard stuff like "Didn't We Almost Have It All," "Where Do Broken Hearts Go" and "I Wanna Dance with Somebody (Who Loves Me)" on soul radio stations and the only reason "The Greatest Love of All" got any airplay was because of a comparison with George Benson's version.

I don't know any of my peers who were getting into Houston at that point and it was during this period she started getting all the backlash and boos for her music. The only song from "Whitney" that seemed to get any positive response was her cover of The Isley Brothers' "For the Love of You."
[Edited 10/4/07 5:55am]

FreeMuze said:

I strongly disagree on the soul music front because by the late 1980s Whitney Houston met a lot of resistance from that market. I would say from 1986 through 1995 this woman was Janet Jackson's closest rival:



"Rapture" was an incredibly well regarded album, and she had four albums that went at least platinum from 1986 through 1995 -- "Rapture" (four million copies sold), "Giving You the Best that I Got" (3 million), "Compositions" and "Rhythm of Love" (2 million). And for what it's worth, Anita Baker won eight Grammies during that span, which smokes what JJ won during that span.
[Edited 11/17/07 5:17am]

Najee said:

That is so true. It's true about the Bad era especially. Although the black community have always acknowledge Michael to be an extraordinary talent regardless the era, when it came to the actual popularity of his music in the black community it dip especially around the Bad era; due to the style of music and Michael own changing face and his bizarre antics.

I think people are mixing up the hype of Bad, which was 10 times the hype of Thriller when it was release, with the actual popularity of the music. Having been well into my teens by the time Thriller came out, let alone Bad I think I am in a very good position to say within the black community at that time especially when it came to to black radio and black clubs JJ was the more popular artist.

And who could forget the ending of Do The Right Thing when the DJ runs down the list of famous, black artists which included the likes of Janet and even Prince, but Michael name was never ever mentioned.

Timmy84 said:

Yeah, Billboard's old system was flawed, to say the least. Those flaws were painfully apparent when it came to certain crossover-oriented songs that hardly were played or received by the soul music market. Really, did anyone who listened to music at that time actually think that "That's What Friends Are For" was a bigger hit on the soul market than Zapp's "Computer Love," The Force MDs' "Tender Love" and Cherelle and Alexander O'Neal's "Saturday Love" -- songs that supposedly "Friends" held off from the No. 1 position?

My goodness, Bobby McFerrin's "Don't Worry, Be Happy" nearly was a top 10 hit on the soul charts (it peaked at No. 11) -- when was that song ever played on any soul radio station or was bought by that audience?!? It was apparent that the powers-that-be at Billboard looked clueless at times to what was going on in certain genres.
[Edited 10/4/07 6:52am]

whatsgoingon said:

You done done it now,lol. Don't you recall in 'Do The Right Thing' when Michael's name was mentioned in a scene? Spike Lee's character was in an altercation with the italian dude. Spike told the White dude , "f-ck Frank Sinatra" and the guy answered, "F-ck MICHAEL JACKSON"! Cause Michael was the BIGGEST damn Black entertainer on the face of the earth - "OUR Sinatra"!
Now crawl your way out of this one,lol. See Ya

mrsnet said:

The point whatsgoingon is making is at that time Michael Jackson was more viably accepted with white music buyers than he was in the soul market.

No one is arguing that MJ was not the most known or regarded recording artist in the world at that time. However, you are confusing that with whether MJ's music was being played in soul music formats in the late 1980s and early 1990s. At that time, MJ's music was almost exclusively played on top 40/pop formats.
[Edited 10/4/07 7:26am]

I don't know understand why the black community who are big fans of Michael couldn't accept that he was having a downtime in the late-'80s in terms of urban radio airplay. He just wasn't heard from. I guess that's when the whole "king of pop" thing came about. The black community had always respected and adored Michael (and will always will to a degree) but that didn't always mean they played his record. Especially after what Najee just said, that convinced me that sometimes what you think you see may not be exactly what you get.

Najee said:

Exactly!

Timmy84 said:

Exactly. I'm not saying this stuff out of my behind; I was an FCC-licensed disc jockey for my college radio station and I have an aunt whose best friend's husband was Doug Steele, who was one of the most popular on-air DJs in the nation in the late '70s and was the host of the nationally syndicated show "Coast to Coast Soul."

For the most part, Michael Jackson's "Bad" was tepidly received by soul music formats. The only reason his initial singles were played was because of corporate pressure to promote them ("If you don't play ABC song XYZ times per day, your station is not going to get the next Luther Vandross single"), but once the initial blitz died down most of his songs didn't receive continued airplay.

There are radio station formats across the country that play '80s soul music and thus are not under the corporate pressure to push the latest single by certain artists. I have yet to hear any song from "Bad" on any of these stations. For all intents and purposes, here are the '80s MJ songs I do hear with regularity:

* "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough"
* "Rock with You"
* "I Can't Help It"
* "Off the Wall"
* "Working Day and Night"
* "Billie Jean"
* "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'"
* "Human Nature"
* "P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)"
* "The Lady in My Life"

If anything, it's fairly consistent to which MJ songs you heard on soul radio stations during the release of his albums -- hence, my skepticism about how well some of his other songs charted on Billboard's flawed system.
[Edited 10/4/07 8:56am]

vainandy said:

I don't think Janet and Whitney were in a real competition. If you think about it, Whitney was promoted as a POP artist and Janet wasn't until after RN.

I saw the documentary on VH1 this weekend about black music in the 80s. They discussed how Whitney was crafted by Clive to be an adult contemporary artist that just happened to be black. Everything from her hair style to her "classic" album cover (first album). Every song on her first 2 cds was designed to be a crossover hit (can you say So Emotional?).

Tommy Motolla had the exact same formula for Mariah.

Najee said:

If you think about it, Video Soul and other BET video shows didn't play that many videos from her (especially after How Will I Know blew up).

As for the "Boos" on the ST awards, didn't something happen (press wise) where black people got upset with her around that time? Wasn't it because she was dating a white guy and all of her music, at the time, was mainly marketed toward a white audience?

I also remember reading that Whitney wanted to gain the love of the black audience with her 3rd album (I'm Your Baby Tonight) after the booing at the ST awards. That is why Clive had her work with Babyface and LA. They were the hottest writers/producers in black music at that time (and had managed to get quite a few crossover hits at the time). From what I remember, Whitney wanted to work with Face and LA on the 2nd album, but Clive didn't think their sound was "pop" enough at the time.

Najee said:

The only MJ song I hear on "oldies" stations from the Bad album is "Man In The Mirror". I never hear any of the other track.

Timmy84 said:

Agreed. This statement holds true today about different artists (Beyonce).

I guess it all depends where you live, MJ's Bad album get's alot of play on both of are oldies stations here in Philly. You'll here:

1.I Just Can't Stop Loving You
2.Another Part Of Me
3.Bad
4.Man In The Mirror
5. Smooth Criminal
6.Liberian Girl

.....in regular rotation.

the Bad songs I've heard the most on the radio are:

The Way You Make Me Feel-#1
I Just Can't Stop Loving You
Bad (usually when a dj is playing a bunch of older songs)

I've heard every single song from Thriller on the radio though

In NC, it's basically "The Way You Make Me Feel", "P.Y.T.", "Rock With You", "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough", "Lady in My Life" and "Billie Jean".

I've also heard the popular j5 and jacksons hits, as well as dstyge, rwy and otw on the radio. When deejays are playing stuff on urban radio on friday nights, I'll still occasionally hear the remixes of YRMW and Butterflies. One time I heard xscape as well, cause the deejay on our urban radio station is a huge mj fan, and I also saw him perform the way you make me feel at dundas square
[Edited 10/4/07 10:16am]

Najee said:

Exactly. I think peeps are getting the hype surrounding Michael during the release of albums like Bad and Dangerous with how popular the music actually was within certain demographics in the long run.

The fact is after the initial hype of Bad and the fanfare surrounding it, the album wasn't something you would hear at lots of parties and clubs and it definitely wasn't played to death on black radio.What kept that album in the public conscious in general is the fact that he release half of the singles off the album and the world tour, take that away and the album would have probably faded into oblivion.

Compare that to Thriller which inspite of less fanfare on release and no world tour it still lived on into the public's conscious well into 1985, 3 years after it was release. And to a lesser extent I could say the same for Off The Wall, the actual music of the album was still making waves long after it had been released. I remember going clubbing around the time Bad and Dangerous were release, and if they did play Michael Jackson at all, it was usually from Off The Wall or the Jacksons era.

whatsgoingon said:

But this is within the urban community. In the rest of the world, the Bad and Dangerous eras were huge. Like lilgish said earlier, Michael Jackson could promote Bad well into 1989 because of its popularity around the world. Just because Bad was not well-received within the urban community does not mean it would have faded into oblivion without the fanfare surrounding it. From what I have read, seven out of the nine songs from Thriller were released; and I am sure the Victory helped its sales as well. Just because you and your friends did not like the songs off Bad does not mean that the songs were not well-received among other people around the world. In East Asia, songs from these eras are often considered to be signature Michael Jackson songs. And this is true for Europe to a lesser extent as well. Fanfare alone would not have accounted for almost 50-60 million copies of these albums to have been sold.

Najee said:

And to this list I would add some of the stuff from The Destiny and Triumph albums. Another classic that soul radio likes playing is "Let Me show you the Way to Go". Infact on black radio your more likely to hear Blues Away from the album The Jacksons, before you hear anything from Bad.

Rodya24 said:

I personally believe without the huge success of Thriller, which set up the hype and the kind of promotion Bad was afforded, the world tour of Bad and the constant release of singles from the Bad album it would have faded into oblivion.

And I don't think Bad has sold anywhere near 50million. And if you look at Bad record sales there were only a few places in Western Europe it sold more than Thriller, and it wasn't by that much, and one of them was UK. Every where else Thriller has sold more, including other parts of the world like Japan. So this myth that Bad sold more than Thriller in every part of the world except for America is a load of crap.
[Edited 10/4/07 10:59am]

Rodya24 said:

But that's what this whole topic is about: THE URBAN COMMUNITY. Fuck the world for a minute.

lilgish said:

Well 'Control' was released in '86, but when 'Bad' came out ('88)it took center stage. It racked up No.1 hit after hit on BET countdown. We're talking BET, not MTV. Donny Simpson jokingly blamed Bad's success for Jermaine's album's lackluster performance.
While Janet became a huge crossover artist, Michael lost more of his White audience than Urban during BAD, but still broke records with 5 no.1 songs!
The '80s and early '90s, competition for Michael at the Black Awards was like going against Denzel for Best Actor. Michael ALWAYS won. Janet never won any Black awards during this period.
And at the end of the day, it is Michael Jackson who all of the young Black artists pay homage to - from Kanye West to Chris Brown; even the girls - from Ciarra to Beyonce, list Michael as their no1 inspiration.