Najee said:

For example, I am in constant shock that such an amazing group such as the Jacksons is often forgotten or overlooked outside of the black community.

Rodya24 said:

I say that is because Michael Jackson's success as a solo act has overshadowed The Jackson 5's/The Jacksons' success and MJ has been a solo act essentially since 1985. People by nature tend to have short memories over some things like pop culture events. But I understand what you're saying, because by some people's reaction you would think The J5/The Jacksons were marginally successful instead of a huge sensation.

For that matter, another example of how some acts' impacts are overlooked is Freddie Jackson. Freddie had an incredible 10 No. 1 singles from 1985 through 1991 -- which basically put him into superstar territory in that span. To give Jackson's success some context, Luther Vandross only had seven No. 1 singles in a career that spanned more than two decades.
[Edited 10/3/07 19:34pm]

hell yeah janet was huge in the black community, she was the black girls madonna.when control came out it was a breath of fresh air because before that whitney houston was the top black female artist and even though we loved whitney, janet was a welcome change. after control you had the likes of jody, karyn,peebles, even vanessa williams came out with her control-flavor. the control album and janets style had a big impact on black female artists. as for her and michael, he will always be the bigger star but there was a time when janet got more love in the urban community then her brother.

lowkey said:

Exactly. From mid-1986 through 1990, I would say these acts in no particular order were the biggest acts that black music buyers in the United States listened to and whose albums were considered must-buys:

Luther Vandross
Janet Jackson
New Edition
Anita Baker
Freddie Jackson
Bobby Brown
Keith Sweat
Guy
Cameo
Public Enemy
Al B. Sure!

For that matter, anything that was produced by Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, L.A. and Babyface or Teddy Riley dominated the soul music scene.
[Edited 10/3/07 19:19pm]

Najee said:

Oh Get real. You're going back to the Bad Era?! You do remember his MITM Grammy performance - for Black folk, that was as huge as his Motown 25.
I experienced Michaelmania during the Bad Era. I clearly remember how large crowds lined the streets as his motorcade drove into town. Looked like the Pope coming into town,lol.
Black folks were lined up at record stores in huge numbers the night before the release of that album.
Janet and nobody else touched MJ's success with the masses, including Blackfolks (from Thriller to Dangerous).
You talk about your peers, well I remember MY peers. I'm Black and most of my friends were into Michael.

LOL, I actually see what Najee and krayzie are saying here about Michael. Actually it was rare in the late-'80s and early-'90s when you did hear a MJ track on the radio. And usually the biggest songs urban radio played that were Mike's was probably "The Way You Make Me Feel", "Smooth Criminal" and "Liberian Girl". However, compared that to sister Janet and you couldn't turn to another radio station in the urban community that didn't have a Janet Jackson song on.

I feel Janet did have an impact during that time period. She was really the first female urban artist that used the sounds of two hot producers (Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis) and turned that into something that was admired. LA and 'Face competed with Karyn and Pebbles, then Vanessa Williams' first single was oddly like something from "Control", then came Jody and Paula and Lisa-Lisa altered their sound a little to fit what came after "Control".

Everything in the late-'80s was Control-esque than Janet switched her game up with "Rhythm Nation 1814". By that point, Michael was in semi-retirement. It took until "Remember the Time" and "In the Closet" that Michael was truly back on urban radio.

mrsnet said:

Apparently, you got all your facts mixed up:

1.) Michaelmania is generally credited as the "Thriller" album through the "Victory" tour (1983 through early 1985).

2.) It was during the "Bad" album that you saw backlash and resistance to MJ manifest. He was noticeably fairer in complexion and was doing bizarre things such as trying to buy John Merrick's remains and sleeping in a hyperbolic chamber.

3.) Talking about people crowding music stores in anticipation to the follow-up to "Thriller" is a lot different from having his music playing constantly in black music outlets. After the initial marketing pushes, generally the singles from "Bad" did not have that much staying power. Really, when was the last time you heard a song from "Bad" played with any regularity on an '80s format soul station?

In summation, your comments are general about Michael Jackson when the dicsussion is about his presence in soul music in the late 1980s. If you want to delude yourself that soul music followers embraced his music more than Janet Jackson, much less acts like Luther Vandross, New Edition, Public Enemy and Freddie Jackson you are free to delude yourself.
[Edited 10/4/07 5:52am]

Also it was the late 80s when MJ began receiving much recognition from BET, Soultrain, NAACP, etc. for his artistic accomplishments ( the Michael Jackson award for instance). In early '93, he was acclaimed as the 'Greatest Entertainer' in American history and awarded at the NAACP awards. These were all Black people. Where were Janets awards and accolades from the black community if she were indeed more embraced? She got none, nada. Why?

mrsnet said:

Yeah, those are called LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS, honoring Michael Jackson for his career from his days with The Jackson 5 through that point.

mrsnet said:

Another lifetime achievement award.

Najee said:

On #3, I only hear "The Way You Make Me Feel" and that's about it. Not even "Remember the Time" they don't play, but they do play "Butterflies" every now and then.

And for people crowding around to get "Bad", that was probably people of all colors getting it, it wasn't the urban majority though, I don't think. But hey, he was hailed as a legend in the black community due to his past work and they didn't boo him like they did Whitney.

They screamed when Michael came out to accept a Soul Train award but that same year, when Whitney's name was mentioned for an Album of the Year award, all you heard was "BOOOOO!" That was a scary scene too. They Apollo-ed her ass.

mrsnet said:

LOL.

Janet Jackson has also been recognized by people in black entertainment and music.

I understand what you are arguing. Michael Jackson has been and will be bigger than Janet Jackson. However, in the late '80s as others in this thread has pointed out, her songs crafted by Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis made more of an impact on urban radio.

whatsgoingon said:

WRONG!!!!!

Najee said:

Again, why was Michael Jackson so awarded by the African American organizations? Where was Janet's? Luther's? (And this is so fuuny, lol - New Editions)? I'm through here, you're obviously a hater. LOL.

lilgish said:

The plot thickens.

mrsnet said:

Before you get involved into an argument with others in this thread, I just would like to point out that almost everyone who has posted in the last page or so appreciate part or all of his catalog.

Janet was more popular than Jodi Watley, Karyn White, and Pebbles combined IMO - she put out some great albums in the late 80's and she was riding on the commercial success and fame of her family.

By the late 80's, Micheal's superstar status really started getting to his head. The excessive plastic surgery and bleached out skin pretty much freaked people out when Bad was released. Overall, his weirdness started overshadowing his talent.

Janet was so young at the time, and I remember alot of people connecting with her because of that - she was starting to make a name for herself. Not to mention, compared to MJ, she was way more down to earth.

Rodya24 said:

I think that's it right there. We know Michael is the best-selling of the siblings but Janet pulled in her weight especially during the '80s. She had like ten top ten R&B singles (if you don't count "Diamonds") between '82 and '89 and nine of those were nearly consecutive between 1986 and 1989. Plus she had like seven number-one R&B singles between 1986 and 1989.

Mike was played well enough to get R&B number-ones with "Bad" though considering of his appeal. But Janet was up there for sure.

whatsgoingon said:

EDIT
[Edited 10/3/07 20:48pm]

Well ain't we (MJ fans) the ones bragging about "Thriller" selling "100 million" copies. Clearly it was never just an American thing.
[Edited 10/3/07 20:45pm]

Tom said:

*Sigh* Yes, as others have pointed out in this thread, Janet Jackson had more success with her Control and RN1814 albums with the urban audience. However, in the US as a whole and world-wide, Michael Jackson was much, much bigger than Janet Jackson, regardless of his eccentricities.

mrsnet said:

Because Michael Jackson has been a prominent, very successful recording artist for 20-odd years at that point, hence the lifetime achievement awards.

Apparently, despite what you said you evidently were not buying popular black music -- or following it thoroughly -- during the 1980s. What hardcore soul music fans were listening to and buying during that period were acts like Luther Vandross, Freddie Jackson, Bobby Brown, Public Enemy, Keith Sweat, Anita Baker, New Edition and Janet Jackson.

Rodya24 said:

Wait hold up, I thought we were just talking about the US urban audience... I'm confused, man.

This thread is again going off to comparing how Mike & Janet sold worldwide?

Timmy84 said:

LOL.

Someone earlier had asked who had sold better in Europe.

Rodya24 said:

What? And one of y'all had to answer that person!?! It wasn't even about that, lol! We know MJ outsold Janet in Europe, stop beating a dead horse.

Timmy84 said:

Keep in mind this was before Billboard changed its process in recording its statistics. At one point Billboard was counting massive crossover acts like Michael Jackson and Lionel Richie by carrying over its count in pop markets to the soul market. So a song that rarely got played on soul radio formats like "Say You, Say Me" could be counted as a No. 1 soul song because its numbers would get mixed in with its numbers in the pop market.
[Edited 10/5/07 4:54am]

Najee said:

Say word? Get out of here. I wondered why "That's What Friends Are For" hit number-one and that was far from "R&B". Everyone dogged Lionel back then for "turning on his sound". "Against All Odds" was more soulful than "Say You, Say Me" and that was sung by a British dude (Phil Collins)!
[Edited 10/3/07 20:55pm]

Timmy84 said:

The massive crossover success of acts like Michael Jackson, Lionel Richie and Whitney Houston in the 1980s made it more difficult to record statistics accurately. Before then, radio stations were fairly segregated so it was easier to catalog who was buying whose music and what was played on certain formats.

That's why Billboard went to SoundScan in 1991, which drastically altered the Billboard charts. Whereas before the charts had been compiled from dubious data delivered by radio stations and record stores (not to mention payola and corporate pressure), SoundScan provided a much more accurate X-ray of the music-buying public.

That's why you rarely see obviously crossover songs that never get played on soul formats like "Say You, Say Me" and "That's What Friends Are For" near the top of the soul charts nowadays. I bet if SoundScan was used in the 1980s half of Michael Jackson's "hit soul songs" would not rank nearly as high as they did under the old system.
[Edited 10/3/07 21:07pm]

MJ existed in his own musical landscape. He would get standing ovations for merely walking on the stage, which still does happen. Janet was coming into her own, had massive radio hits. With MJ, it was no longer about music, he was a commodity unto his own, and he was treated as such. Janet's first two albums had the street, house parties and such. So between 86 - 89 her music was played more. But everyone knew the songs off of Bad, they knew the videos, the commercials, MJ was still releasing singles from the album in 89. MJ back then could promote an album for 3 years. MJ existed in his own musical landscape, much like Madonna, Prince had lost that status in the late 80's.

JJ was hot as all shit!!!! The other girls, possibly just as talented, but didn't have the name, producers, charisma or history. Janet had the street and parties. MJ was on rarefied air.
[Edited 10/3/07 21:11pm]

Najee said:

I gotcha. Wow, the things you learn about the music business...