CoolTarik1 said:

Labels can push as hard as they can the songs, if radio stations don't play those songs, if TV don't play these songs, and most importantly if the PUBLIC don't like these, who are you gonna do blame ???

It would be interesting to see how many albums were released in 2006 as compared to the 50s, 60s and 70s.

It's a very complicated issue, but at least part of the problem has to be that there just aren't nearly enough good songs to go around.

I don't think you could fill half a CD with songs from Destiny's Child that would be thrilling and stand the test of time.

But The Temptations and The Supremes often had the cream of the crop to write for them.

Just imagine the best songwriting teams being matched up with the best groups. You might actually end up caring about what goes on behind those dance moves.

At least if you get enough money and power together today you'll be able to buy the best the market has to offer.

But I still say that this market is far too large for its own good.

vainandy said:

Pff...



You really live in a fantasy world...

Too many people ignore what amateur artists have to deal with when they decide to make Music a living...

Making Music a living is the worst job because you have to deal with a very uncertain future...

I have two of my mother's original vinyl Supremes albums. Actually, a lot of the songs on their albums were remakes of other artists songs such as....."Get Ready", "This Old Heart Of Mine", "Hang On Sloopy", etc.....but they still sounded great.

The problem with today's music isn't the lyrics but the actual music behind the lyrics. There's no music behind the lyrics. It's just a slow, weak sounding, midtempo, fake beat. You could put some award winning lyrics over it with the greatest vocalist in the world and the song would still sound like shit.

Brendan said:

yeah right

That's why the highest peak of CD sales was the year 2000, only 7 years ago. Because they were enough good songs to go around...

In 2000, the biggest selling artists were Christina aguilera, Backstreet Boys, Nsync, Britney Spears... Wow they were enough good songs to go around 7 years ago...


yeah right...

krayzie said:[quote]

guitarslinger44 said:

You got stats to go by that?
Cause im def not white and an advid Country concert goer...
Hundreds if not thousands of people there are under 30 usually in the 18- 30 area actually
attracts alot of frat boys...
And their are a fair bit of blacks and othe rminorities their go...
your right not the majority...
but hey they're there...

you sound a little racist to me
but most of all you sound like you have an agenda...
as most racist do...

krayzie said:[quote]

guitarslinger44 said:

Well just to quote Bill Maher on this subject when talking to the head of Virgin Music. "Kids dont buy the music they mostly steal it". The funny thing is that people tend to think just because technology is set up that way that its still ok to do.

Fantasy world my ass. It's just a matter if someone has enough pride to either turn down an offer to possibly make big money playing bullshit or to either pass it up because they refuse to lower their standards.

I've had offers to DJ a few gigs and turned them down because I absolutely refused to play even one shit hop song because it's my name that is on the line and I didn't care who's party it was.

Like I said before, it's just a matter of what's more important to you. Money or pride.

vainandy said:

Yeah, I forgot about covers. Lots of great cover songs plus great song writers and you still had albums that missed there intended mark.

But I'd still take my chance with the 50s, 60s and 70s over today. Not that great music isn't being made today, just that every body and their brother thinks that have something to sing/say.

Brendan said:

Yeah well this is also the issue of "writing and playing" and where that comes in, i mean we can run down the list of people who didnt write or play anything but their music stood the test of time, take everyone from Elvis to alot of Motown stuff, no one wrote their own shit, very few did. Damn Sinatra never wrote anything in his life as far as i know, i think the same goes for Striesand and others. So not only is there a break-down in the talent, but there is a break-down in how its molded. Yeah and perfect point about the Temps and Supremes, and even the Beatles didnt write it all early on, they were using others songs.

krayzie said:

Well there again thats about sales and thats not really an issue, also its cd sales, which never existed back in the day, also we forget that that year of its peak was also the year they practically deleted the "commercial" single and really were forcing people to buy cds, also cassettes were being deleted totally and last but not least that was a "youth" movement, the same reason that disney albums are the biggest sellers now, its the same reason for the ones you mentioned, parents but it for their kids because it was "safe".

vainandy said:

This is what I was saying you are living in a fantasy world and you have no clue what'soever about the struggles of amateur artists.

Making Music a living is a very bad job... Only few people can live from their music. The big majority just struggles or needs a job beside... So that's easy for you to claim I would turn down an offer to possibly make big money...
You just don't know how DIFFICULT being an amateur artist is...

krayzie said:

I see that you're overwhelmed by my extremely abbreviated partial theory on one minor facet of a very complicated issue that involves many.

I'm one that blames the consumer every bit as much as I blame the product.

I know exactly how difficult it could be if someone wanted to make a living out of being a musical artist. Of course it would difficult, that's why they should have a regular job as backup. If you don't have a backup job that you work as your main source of income, no, you can't afford to turn someone down if they want you to do something you don't want to do. However, if you do have a backup job, yes, you can tell someone to go to hell if they don't want to work with you on your terms.

DJing isn't my profession by no means. I would love to be a DJ but I fully understand that in this day and age, it would be totally unrealistic to think that I could make a living off it, especially when there is shit that I refuse to play. I work a clerical job. It's not necessarily something that I want to do but it's something that I have to do if I want money coming in.

Yeah, if a musical artist doesn't work a normal job until they get a full time career making music (if it ever happens), yes, they are going to starve. You can afford to be a little picky and choosy when you're already making a living. That's why people always say...."Finish school" or "Learn something for backup in case you don't make it".
.
.
[Edited 9/26/07 13:00pm]

HEY MISTER YOU ARE SO WRONG... if someone gave me a record deal... and I had producers and writes... I would be the one that approved of each song... and WHAT I SAY....

i hate albums that have like on 4 decent songs.. and the rest are just album fillers and boring... like those slow boring songs that fill the album up..

NO way.. i want an album where i can release any single and it would be in the top 20 if not top 10... that the kind of album I want...

TotalAlisa said:

you wouldn't be saying that if they started giving you 20 million and up for producing shit...

vainandy said:

Songwriting isn't just about lyrics. It's also about melodies. Ask Lamont Dozier or any of the Motown writers. They always emphasise how important the melodies were in reaching people. The fact that they married them to clever lyrics only made it more potent. Now of course the musicians were also paramount, but there are plenty of crap songs on Motown albums where the musicians are playing just as great, but it doesn't quite hit home because the song is not good. The way to test a song (as opposed to a track) is to strip it down to just voice and guitar and see if it still holds up. You find many songs simply fall apart when exposed like that. Most of the great Motown songs still shine through though no matter how you strip them down. That's a huge part of the magic.

What you're saying about the music behind the voices is true though. The sound and energy of a real live band is missing in black music. The double tragedy is that we've lost both the musicianship and the writing. They've both gone by the wayside, and I personally lament both of those losses. I think though that if the public have the chance to hear more good stuff they would realise what they're missing. I constantly point to Rihanna's Umbrella which has a great melody and has been by far the biggest hit of her career. Amy Winehouse's Rehab is a great track, which works because the musicians are laying down a great groove. That track has turned her into a superstar. So people do respond to these things when they get the chance to hear them.

midnightmover said:

Yes and no
Yes the melody is very important, But it isn't as important as the lyrics.
As a songwriter, and a man has studied and has been influence by songwriters
I have to say that the Lyrics are in fact the most important thing.
writing a song melody can possibly take you a minute to do...
But to have a good, poetic, coherrent words to accompany that melody is hard...
And it can't be mechcanical...
Songwriters usually have to go to a deep dark place to write a great song...
And it takes alot out of them...
Thats why Dylan wa so enigmatic as a lyricist... because he wrote so many songs, that were coherrent and seem to never run out.
He became the faulkner or Hemmingway of songwriting...

Songwriters are essentially writers, who just happen to write music as well...
Ryan Adams use to say, that first and foremost he was a writer...
He had writing habits...
every morning he would go to his typewriter with a cup of coffee... And just write...
Doesn't really have to be a song in any form... but just comprise ideas surrounding how he feels or wants to feel that paticular day..
Afterwards you edit that mess out into a story or some kind of song

Take whatever you got... go to the piano or guitar and just play what you feel until it becomes a series of harmonic changes and a melody...
not every song needs a melody outside of the vocal line and not every song needs a harmony...
but its whatever you feel...

Songwriters are usually writers first and composers second...
Some arent even composers at all, and give their work to composers and arrangers so they can find a melody for their song...

Its very hard to finda a really good songwriter/singer/composer
they're daimonds in the rough...
and of course its up to ones perception to decide on whats actually a good song?

What I cannot understand is why some songs that are really really good come out and get a little bit of air play, then get taken off the air really fast. And these are artists who have been around for years and took a break. (eve, keisha, music, ugk,) But songs like walk it out, superman, and even though I like the guy I don't want to hear another t pain song again. Why are they getting so much air play and the vet groups are getting little. They are lucky if they get ten spins before they are taken off the air, but the new artists are getting played like three times an hour.

Also, it is true, I guess do the song or get fired. wear the look or get fired, take the money and run it ain't about making good music. That sucks!!

EmbattledWarrior said:

I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out what ANY of this has to do with my post. I don't recall myself ranking melodies and lyrics in order of importance. I was merely pointing out to vainandy that songwriting is not just about words. Words by themselves do not make a song. As for writing methods and the like, well, that's fascinating but what does it have to do with my comments? You seem to have just used my post as a springboard to talk about a whole host of things that have absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. But hey, if you got it off your chest then I'm happy for you.
[Edited 9/28/07 9:19am]

midnightmover said:

Well it was just a long post to answer the first portion...
i didn't want to make it longer so i stopped there lol