VoicesCarry said:

Its not really that, its the fact that she actually went overseas and played on Jayz's tour that she even got any notice overseas. I dont think her music would be classified as Europop at all, especially listening to Girls Aloud or Sugababes who are true Europop, Rihanna is very american rb/pop. Also the idea of taking the show overseas is smart but Amerie did it and it worked so others have followed suit, im sure these rb ladies will also follow her lead and put out mixtapes like Amerie did. Teedra Moses has done it, and im sure others will follow. I think we give Rihanna too much credit, she is still a puppet on a string at this point, she may be a sweet girl and all and great looking and catchy, but lets not her give her credit for the direction when she is being given tracks to sing. and a side note Rihanna was the opening act for PCD on tour overseas, so once again smart decision to tour, but others beat her to it long ago.
[Edited 9/8/07 11:40am]

Obviously Motown will never achieve their glory days again, but they have some major fucking issues The pushing of the Stevie CD and now this...I mean, they can't be content and doing all that well just packaging and reselling those classic songs over and over again, can they? I mean...well, maybe they are considering they probably keep reaching new audience but I can't imagine a label like Warners just being content with living off "The Immaculate Collection" forever. What is going on there. I mean, Motown has been a joke for far too long..they are a joke in an industry that is a joke! Can't someone go in there and kick some ass. They aren't even at the level they were in the eightes, which was nothing to brag about, was it? Even in the nineties, they had Boyz II Men on their label (they might still...who knows and who cares!). I don't understand what happened to Stevie's release (it almost sounds as if the record was truly not finished but why they hell did Motown keep setting release dates, then?) but the Mya thing shows they are out of control with not only legendary artists (who helped make the label what it is) but have no idea what they are doing with a young one who has the ablility to sell well.

VinnyM27 said:

Its just the way of thinking that has to change, and its not just Motown its all labels. The problem with Motown is that its almost become like "Rhino" records at this point, which is fine if they only do reissues, if thats the case dont sign new people and operate that way. But right now Motown has less power than an indie label starting up, and the saddest part is that is owned by Universal the biggest thing in music. But lets not fool ourselves, Universal right now is praying for a payday on the Mariah release, and i mean PRAYING. Not only that they are shitting bricks that she wont get it out in November and it will be an early 2008 release which wont help them. They want blockbuster XMAS sales due to all the money they lost this year, i mean a 20million dollar marketing cost for the Rihanna album, which despite hit singles hasnt sold a million in the states. Thats where the loss is coming from, "marketing waste", thats why you get albums pushed back,cancelled and artists dropped.

lastdecember said:

No you don't understand (Again) ...

The music industry is more competitive than yesterday. Because people buy FAR less records.

Right now artists need more hits, more promotion, more hype, more exposure to sell records.

Few years ago talentless artists like Mya could sell 1,000,000 copies easily, now she will barely sell 100,000 copies...


Music has changed. Like I said several time, there's no room for third rated artists anymore.

That's why I said the Music is more competitive.
Mya is done, and also she's too old to come back anyway...

krayzie said:

Well i dont acknowledge terms like "over" or "done" because we cant judge anyone like that. As far as selling, shit everyone is done then, everyone from Elton John to Prince to anyone of todays artists. and sorry there is no competition out there, no one is buying because no one wants what they hear or deem it worth paying for. The fact that artists need gimmicks and arrests and hypes and FAKE scandals to sell there wack ass record that ANYONE can record proves the whole in the industry and why sales are where they are. There comes a time where its gotta just be said that theres too much out there and not alot of is worth anyones money, im tired of hearing sales are down because of downloads or bootlegging, bullshit, sales are down because there is nothing people want to spend money on. The scene has to be called for what it is, excuses at this point are tired. The even scarier thing is that record numbers of money is spent to promote and no one is turning profits and labels are dropping people and in fact closing and merging themselves. As far as MYA well it is what it is, i never said she would sell big numbers, no one can at this point Regardless of HIT SINGLES as we clearly see in todays market. There are artists that have 3-4 top five singles and cant even sell a million records. I think MOTOWN is done at this point, MYA will go on, probably go indie like Teedra Moses who has already sold more of a mix tape than some RB artists with labels and Promo HYPE, lets face it, Motown couldnt even push Stevie Wonders last record? How do you screw that up when you at least have his core audience.
Sorry but i was in the industry long enough and i left it because there was NOTHING left to it and it had nothing to do with competition, the industry is OVER, read the gene simmons interview posted on this site a few weeks back, ITS OVER and competition has nothing to do with it.
[Edited 9/8/07 13:16pm]

lastdecember said:

Please I work for a record label, so I know exactly how the Music industry works...

And the fact that you believe sales are down because there is nothing people want to spend on shows that you have no clue how the Music industry works...

7 years ago the CD sales were at their highest peak ever.
If I can remember the biggest selling artists 7 years ago were Nsync, Backstreet Boyz, Brtiney Spears, Eminem and Christina Aguliera... Yeah right, there were a lot artists people wanted to spend money on... Was it for the quality of music ????

Anyway, the Music industry is too competitive for third artists like Mya right now... Artists need more hits, more hype, more promotion to sell albums which was the case 6 years ago. She has never been a hit maker in the first place.

Music has changed. And I think she should retire for good...

The new technology has dramatically and definitely changed the game forever, downloading and heavy CD burning have become a way of living for young people all over the world.

And if you believe that people would spend money if there were better artists you are completely wrong...
[Edited 9/8/07 14:17pm]

lastdecember said:

Lastdecemeber, you know this business...too bad labels don't!

I think if anything really fucked the music business as a whole as well as artists, eastablished and not, it was that mega merger a few years back. Glad CEOs got paid but it seems like a bunch of labels are now globbed into one big mess, all in the name of creating an unholy alliance in order to sell and resell classic hits.

You think Universal is really putting all of it's hopes on Mairah? That's pretty messed up becuase I was thinking the reason for neglecting older artists and/or not developing others was that they have the catalog to fall back on. I figured they were content with that. For such a huge company to put all their hopes on one star, one album (an artist who has bombed in the past....I was just listening to a classic Howard Stern show that discussed her breakdown that was happening right before "Glitter")...uh, wow! And the fact that it won't be a Nov release is not good. I mean, it didn't hurt the last one (that one sold through the year and then got a second life in Christmas).

krayzie said:

Well i do know how it works sorry to say, and i have had people at LABELS walk up to me and say we dont have anything good out there worthy right now. I used to have reps come in and talk to me about their artists and try to push them on us and at a certain point a few years ago they would just walk in and say, nothings happening sorry. Sure downloading changed the game but it changed it for the younger crowd, not the older one. If you look it wasnt till this month that Country music actually slipped in sales, the Latin Music Genre is up in sales, and Adult Contemporary artists are up to. So it seems to me the "hype makers" are creating talk about nothing. And it has nothing to do with artists it has to do with who you push and where you spend the marketing money. Like i said before 20 million dollars was spent in marketing the new Rihanna cd, the album would need to sell about 10 million worldwide to break even, think thats gonna happen? how said is it that a 10 million copy selling album would be breaking even? The problem with the music industry is exactly that, its run by corporations looking for a profit, but they are never gonna find it the way they do business now, its that simple, it all has to crash and burn, and everyone starts all over again with nothing, that day is coming soon. All this crap about Hits and stuff is nonsense, look at Fergie, shes got 4 top 3 singles and that album has barely broke 2 million in sales, and think how much HYPE and marketing they did for her. The only competition out there right now for mainstream at least is too package something slightly different than someone else but dont make it too different where people wont buy it.

VinnyM27 said:

But think how funny it is that MARIAH is now a fucking saviour to a label. This is someone that everyone said was OVER. And now peoples jobs are hanging if they dont sell this new album. Trust my words, anyone on UNIVERSAL at this point better just forget putting out a record because 100% of the dollars and attention is going to this Mariah record. This thing has to sell or else, but Mariah is in control because it really doesnt matter to her, she knows the label needs her to save their asses and she is at the end of her Def Jam deal so if this album does MIMI numbers again, Mariah can ask for the biggest contract in history, and will get it. But i think its so humourous that Mariah who was the JOKE of the industry for years after Glitter, everyone at every label said she was done, and even after Charmbracelet sold over a million here people still said she was done, the tides can turn really fast, and it shows how the people running the show have no clue what they are doing. For them to give up on someone like her is easily the stupidest move ever in Music.

krayzie said:

Bullshit! It's RECORD LABELS which need more hits, more hype, and more promotion to sell albums than they did six years ago. Artists have the benefit of Myspace, Facebook, YouTube and other social networking sites to get their music across to the people. The most dedicated artists are also getting more hype the old fashioned way - touring relentlessly. Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, the Plain White T's, Avenged Sevenfold and others had been playing club dates for at least three to five years and putting out indie releases before they ended up having "overnight" success. And bands like Snow Patrol and The Fray, which appeal to a slightly older audience, try to license their music to TV shows like Grey's Anatomy, The O.C. (RIP), and many of the CW TV shows to get their music heard, while more established artists like Norah Jones and Paul McCartney can get Starbucks to distribute their music. And of course, Prince himself was savvy enough to get a UK tabloid to distribute 3 million "free" copies of his album in one day.

The major record companies, on the other hand, are still relying on pushing pretty faces with marginal talent with expensive videos that rarely get TV time these days, million dollar ad campaigns, press junkets with lots of eye candy, and hooking up artists with the latest "hot" producers and songwriters to write and record songs for them, though these producers may not be appropriate for that artist's musical style. They launched a futile effort against digital downloading and even pursued legal action against their own customers which created massive ill will against the industry, and they only now have begun to embrace digital distribution, but it may already be too late for the labels to turn their fortunes around.

As for the music field allegedly being more competitive, I would argue that it is the exact opposite. It's the music industry itself, from the record labels to the major radio conglomerates like Clear Channel who have homogenized music into a product like baby food that has fans tuning away in droves. Music fans have plenty of money to spend on artists that they like, but they are also smart enough to know when they are being pushed a bunch of crap. And it's the crap that's in stores and on the airwaves that people are staying away from.

728huey said:

I agree, labels created this "so called" competition which, im sorry, just does not exist. I dont call it competition because labels eliminated ALL AVENUES where artists could go, so the only competition is within a label. Money is now in tours,merchandising, websites, etc. Just to make a point a band like Chicago or Styx who tour year long will make more money than someone with a number one single, thats the just way it is and its the truth. The way the industry is set up is for failure, very similar to the way the movie business was until it started releasing that paying an actor 50 million to do a shit movie was the reason they were losing money, now you have actors taking scale pay doing "indie" films and thats where this so called music industry is going. The important thing to me as always and i always stress is to build a fan base, if you cant go into other markets you are screwed, unless you are pressing the cds and selling them yourself. And also last but not least DIGITAL is killing music, not the fact that its digital, but you are creating an avenue that will eliminate ALOT of people, its not like going from Lps to cds, the elimination of cds if and when it happens will cripple this industry, but hey, the artists will always find a way. So thats a good thing NO MORE HYPE and NO MORE SUITS.

lastdecember said:[quote]

VinnyM27 said:

Again, I point out that Mariah Carey, for all her idiosyncrasies/meltdowns, has a voice. A powerful voice. A voice that could still allow her to make a living singing in supper clubs if need be. That's something that can't be said for the rest, save Beyonce. That voice is Mariah Carey's ace in the hole.

krayzie said:

Too competitive....There are maybe 3 major labels left and they tend to divy up their release schedule so that a major CD comes out every week and debuts at number one, sells it standard 150K and if it's lucky goes gold. Are there exceptations to that rule like Mariah and Justin...sure. Fine! Frankly, if Mya released a CD during a slow week and with a decent push, she could be one of those artists that goes gold or just misses. What's the harm at this point. The only times it gets competitive is when the fourth quarters rolls along...that's the only time the labels seem to think "Hey, maybe we need to get our act together". The kind of comepetive market your talking about where artists need more hits sounds like the eighties...frankly, there are a small handful of sellers....Now of days, frankly anyone out there can be a "third rate" artist.

lastdecember said:

You don't go to #1 for 10 weeks in the UK by playing Jay-Z's sidekick. Umbrella is a pop song through and through. That's why it hit worldwide.



No she isn't. You really think Push Up On Me, Don't Stop The Music or Shut Up And Drive sound like American R&B????? No. SOS? Hell no.



Amerie's album flopped. Whatever she did didn't work. And please don't tell me that because she went Top 20 in the UK, the album was somehow a major hit.





If it was that easy, everyone else would have done it. But Rihanna has put out three successful records in two years. Amerie, Mya, Nicole S., Cassie and all the other chicks you rep for have not. So I think whatever Rihanna is doing is definitely working and, yes, I give her credit since the average puppet doesn't last three albums. For whatever it's worth, she is one of the few women right now releasing straight-up pop tracks and having them hit in the US.
[Edited 9/8/07 17:36pm]

VinnyM27 said:

Well thats my point here, Im not trying to get people to dig MYA, i mean its a personal preference, I like her some dont, some do. My point is more the business end, i could care less how many she sells, its not like its going to make or break my day if it sells, nor do i think its hers. And truth be told i think she would sell 100-150,000 maybe more overall. Maybe that seems like a joke to people, but thats what you are going to get nowadays. My main point is just put the freaking thing out already, stop holding onto it like it really matters when its put out, it just kills me seeing them doing this and people that actually like her are like "what the fuck is this a joke". To me the last competetive time "musically" was the 80's, once soundscan came in, the music went out pretty much. And just a further note about fourth quaters, its a joke, i never understand why they do things this way. True its the holidays and people are in stores, but so many things fall through the cracks its crazy, and its a waste. I was at a "fourth Quater xmas meeting" a few years ago and all the labels come in and do a presentation to tell you what is coming out, and the thing that killed me every year was that these SAME PEOPLE were the ones i would talk to in February and March and they would say "This year were going to stagger the releases so we dont lose artists anymore", its crazy they made it worse now.

VoicesCarry said:

Heres the deal, if you jam anything down peoples throats they will buy it. Rihanna has catchy songs because they were already someone elses hits. Shes not Europop, shes just straight American pop with a slight twist, nothing euro about her. Also the only reason she has lasted three albums is they have come back to back to back, but based on their hits they havent been big sellers. And lets be real she works because she is a Beyonce clone at this point. Sorry the Amerie didnt flop, it did well in all markets it went to, good considering she went there on her own and didnt have to have people tell her to go there, the UK is more lucrative at this point everyone needs to wake up to this. Nicole and PCD despite being on the charts for 2 years with their cd and having 6 singles sold only 2 million in the US but sold 14 million worldwide, and thats not counting singles sales with was another 12 million. So i dont doubt Rihannas success but dont make it like its something she discovered and she created, she is not in control at this point, when she is than its a different story. And for the last time i never promoted Cassie's Music case closed.

lastdecember said:

As you said, having been in the retail end of the music industry, you should be more acutely aware of release dates for albums and how the big corporate record labels totally looked at music as a commodity to be sold and not art. I'm sure that there has always been an emphasis on fall releases in order to get more albums into the hands and stockings of people come the holidays, but with the consolidation of the major record labels and the drive for quarterly profits requested by shareholders, the music release schedule became all about "the fourth quarter". This was a major reason why Sony Music in the 1990s pushed both Mariah Carey and Celine Dion to release their albums in the fall and why Polygram Music (before Universal) freaked out in 1996 when U2 said that their "Pop" album wouldn't be finished until February, 1997. Polygram had promised their shareholders that the album would be released by Thanksgiving, 2006 and even set up a whole marketing campaign around that release date. The fact that U2 hadn't completed the album by that time had caused the label to lose millions of dollars in stock value.

This emphasis on fourth quarter profits led to released dates which were dubbed Super Tuesday due to the fact that a handful of major artists would all have their albums released on the same day. This created a dilemma for fans, as most of them could not afford to buy more than two or three albums on the same day or week, so they had to choose which albums they wanted to buy. Some artists made off like gangbusters while others got lost in the shuffle. This was unfair for some artists, as the label blamed their artistry (or alleged lack of it) for poor sales when in fact the labels' poor scheduling made it more difficult for the artist in the first place.

lastdecember said:

Nope. There are plenty of instances where this doesn't work.



*Every* song is "someone else's hit". Who gives a fuck? It only matters who releases it in the end.



A slight Euro twist, yes. There is a lot of Euro influence in her dance tracks. You want American pop? Beyonce is American pop.



I see this album as her first serious step towards making something out of herself. Her latest has already sold 2 million worldwide. Sounds pretty good to me.



No, she isn't. If anyone is a Beyonce clone, it's Amerie. And she doesn't work in any market, it seems.



1. She only made #56 on the comprehensive Euro chart. You consider this doing well in "all the markets it went to"?

2. Her album debuted at #17 and proceeded to drop like a stone. The #1 album on a given week in the UK sells 30-70,000 copies. You guess what #17 sells. Lucrative????



And how do you know she's not in control? Is she just very lucky? I really want to know. Ciara, Amerie, Cassie, Nicole, etc. can't seem to do the same thing, so.....?????



Funny, since everyone on the org seems to think you did. Must have been the 5000 Cassie threads you started on the org. They weren't about her music, but then again everyone knows you don't promote Cassie using her music.
[Edited 9/8/07 18:03pm]

Oh, and by the way, I own Amerie records but I do not own any Rihanna records. I merely think Rihanna seems smart and determined enough to see where the money is and go for it. That's where she's going to set herself apart from the other chicks. That and the fact that she seems to have the knack for latching on to catchy songs that turn into big hits. I don't give a shit that she didn't write them. The fact that she finds them is what makes her smarter than all the chicks who turned down Umbrella before it got to her.

VoicesCarry said:

For the record i started 2 cassie threads, one was after the FAMOUS bet appearance and i said 90% of the artists on that show have had similar horrible moments, which is fact. The second Cassie thread was about seeing her here in NYC 4 times in the course of a few months, no not at shows or by choice just in passing on the street. How do i know Rihanna isnt in control, cause almost no one is at this point, i would say that even Beyonce is not really in control yet. And yes none of those artists you mentioned have control either, to a certain extent though i would say Amerie does. You forget that Amerie leaked her cd over a year ago in the USA on two mix cds which have sold well, and even they sold only 50,000 thats all her money, and guess what im sure she made more on a stupid mix tape than Rihanna made on 3 albums, thats not a slight to Rihanna thats just showing what BUSINESS really is.

VoicesCarry said:

Thats another thing she is given the songs she doesnt choose them, someone had to tell her who Soft Cell was in an interview she didnt even know the song she was sampling. As for money, well its more than hits as we know, Toni Braxton had hits and platinum albums but was almost on Welfare for gods sake, while selling 20-30 million albums. Going into this record Rihanna said to her writers/producers "find me some songs, harder edged" so to me that doesnt make her a genius, hey she may be one day, but the jury is still out on this one. I mean whats going to happen when people start saying to rihanna, sing one of your own songs, this happend to Girls Aloud in the UK, the group has always had at least one cover on each album and 4 of their 16 straight top 10 singles have been covers of american songs, their fans actually pleaded with them to never do another cover and the Girls at least for now have no covers on their new upcoming album, now can Rihanna do that? hey i hope she can, i dont hate her, you just have to remember she is just a pop star in a climate that changes daily, she is gonna need to do something to be able to hold an audience.

Well, I have no way to verify that Amerie sold 50000 mixtapes from the trunk of her car, so I can't say one way or the other.

Bottom line is, if it were indeed that easy, all the girls would be having hits. But they're not. How many women passed on Umbrella? Rihanna was the one smart enough to cut the song.

VoicesCarry said:

but you cant attatch the term "hits" to a chart position. I would rather never have a hit but have a bank account and be making money off my stuff than have tons of hits and be paying out to the people that wrote my music and lyrics and the original artist that performed my song.
[Edited 9/8/07 18:33pm]

lastdecember said:

I don't think any of these girls' bank accounts are hurtin'.

I'm sure that Rihanna will soon figure out that cowriter credit is the way to go,

VoicesCarry said:

I dont either thats why alot of them have endorsement deals which Rihanna has and yes so does Cassie, so its not that anyone is dumb, whether you are selling your disc on your own, or you have back up endorsement deals like rihanna,cassie,katharine mcphee all have 6 figure deals, and im sure Amerie has got plenty of cash since i see her almost living in the UK and Japan now, so someone has got $$ to do that. To also further the point that WOMEN keep this industry alive so that MEN can run it, just look at the fourth quarter releases here in the us and uk, its dominated by females. So men may own the labels but the women keep them employed
[Edited 9/8/07 18:51pm]

i really love how everybody within this thread is a label insider....kinda sours the entire thread when all of you all are being so arrogant your not listening to any of the valid points each of you are making.

im out of this thread.

like I said before,I'm not a huge Rhianna fan or anything,but I give her credit for at least doing something different."Umbrella" and "Shut Up And Drive" sound much diferrent than the predictable R&B/shit hop crap that artists like Ciara and Ashanti are doing."Umbrella" is a distinctive song that's extremely catchy.Mya and the others should take notes.