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Exactly. It was probably that album that crossed it over to huge masses of white kids and got record labels' attention that it was very profitable because it was so cheap to make. If it weren't for that album's huge success in the white community, I think black R&B radio probably would have moved on to the next thing just like they always did in the past.

I remember hearing boring midtempo rap songs over a stripped down beat as far back as maybe 1985 or 1986. It never got played on mainstream R&B radio in my area in the late 1980s. There was one particular radio station in my area that had a one hour mix show on Saturday afternoons. Since I live for a good mix, I never missed the show. 30 minutes was usually a house music mix (something that was very new to me at the time and I really enjoyed). The other 30 minutes was usually some funky rap like The 2 Live Crew (their clean versions...it was radio) or LA Dream Team, Gigolo Tony, Freestyle, The Egyptian Lover, etc.....in other words....great rap music. Every once in while though, they would play this slow stripped down rap that was basically "nothing". It was simply a slow beat and some talking. It was boring as hell.

The mainstream R&B stations in my area played lots of rap. With Shitney Houston killing funk left and right, during this era, a lot of the rap records were the fastest and funkiest things on the radio. However, the mainstream R&B radio stations only played the fast funky rap.....which they should. They didn't really consider the stripped down slow shit as "music" and they were right. I never heard much of that stripped down stuff on the radio until white kids started listening to it. Hey, what can I say....didn't white people invent slow ass classical music? I love throwing that insult around.

I used to love The 2 Live Crew. They could jam. I finally got tired of them though when I got sick of hearing "Planet Rock" or "Egypt Egypt" sampled in every shape form and fashion they could think of. Hey, at least 2 Live Crew picked some good songs to sample and didn't slow the tempo down to make them boring.

The 2 Live Crew didn't get much airplay in the late 80s because of their nasty lyrics. However, the Miami bass sound was all over the radio in the late 80s with other groups such as Pretty Tony, Freestyle, BOSE, Afro-Rican, and a singer named Trinere. They were jams and the 80s were about jamming.

Shit, I don't know whatchu talkin' bout. MC Hammer could straight up jam. Those other rappers were jealous because they didn't have the talent to rap fast because they would probably would get tongue twisted. If there had been more jams like MC Hammer's type songs, I never would have created the term "shit hop".

Hell yeah. I used to have that album and I lent it to someone and never got it back. I wish I knew where that person is now so I could kick his ass.

I just wanted to say:

I bought Felix And Jarvis' album.

If I remember correctly, a lot of those type acts were doing the boring midtempo stripped down stuff that eventually led to hip hop becoming shit hop. I should know because I invented the term "shit hop". Since this thread is about shit hop and I invented the term, let me give you the definition....rap, or even singing, that is set to a mostly stripped down slow to midtempo weak sounding beat.

There was plenty of other types of rap in the late 80s and early 90s such as what came to be known as "electro" rap in the 90s ("Planet Rock" type rap), the Miami bass type rap, hip house, etc. Rap wasn't always boring as hell.
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[Edited 9/4/07 22:42pm]

I didn't know they had an album. I've got their 12 Inch though.....

Are you ready to throwdown
YES WE ARE!
Are you ready to throwdown
YES WE ARE!

They were throwin' down too. We shook a many a ass off that record.

vainandy said:

Most of the album is Linn Drum, and the snares are pitched down (and ) like Prince!

Don Was gets programming credit.

That sounds right up my alley.

ThePunisher said:

vainandy said:

I see the problem now. You don't know Hip-Hop. You know RAP, but you don't know Hip-Hop.

I know Hip hop...

vainandy said:

There's this book called "He's Just Not Into You" for women that want to know why a certain guy they have interest in isn't doing the things THEY want them to do. If Hip-Hop had a similiar book, you would be its primary target.

Hip-Hop isn't for you. Rap IS for you. Guys like Luke, Hammer, Vanilla Ice - All those "showy" and "no conscious/no content" rappers are who you favor.

Hip-Hop's just not into you.

What's the difference? Rap was funky and hip hop was boring? If that's the case, then it would have been shit hop all along. People love to separate the two when they want to defend dull talentless stuff.

Vanilla Ice? Oh hell to the naw. That's that boring shit hop just like everything else in the 1990s. No, he's not as "hard" looking as the thugs but he's just as slow and dull as they are so I throw him into the same category as them.....shit hop.

Would you consider Kurtis Blow as hip hop? If so, that man was straight jammin' on "The Breaks", not only rapping but with a funky ass band behind him.

I've always heard the term hip hop used in rap lyrics since the early 80s. I never heard people start trying to separate rap from hip hop until the 1990s when it became shit hop. They tried to do anything they could to separate folks that could actually jam from them.....and understandably so, if they ain't got the rhythm or talent to jam themselves, throw the talented people into another category. It's fine with me though. If they want to separate them, that's good. That way I won't have to worry about insulting jammin' rappers when I use the term shit hop.

vainandy said:

I give hammer credit for two songs let's get it started and i can't recall the name of the other one off his first album but that was his swan song. After that he just released a succession of bullshit albums that had nothing to do with rap. He was basically a showman. Yes he could put a little band together with 30 damn dancers onstage and you couldn't tell whether you were at a concert or at the damn circus. His followup albums particularly his second was nothing more than replaying popular songs you already heard much in the fashion that p.diddy does now. As far as rappers being jealous, i think many called him out because he crossed over which i had no problem with. His rhymes just sucked. A tribe called quest called him out on check the rhyme(real rap) as well as RunDmc and Pete Rock and C.L smooth and all these cats could wipe hammer's no talent rapping ass all across any stage. Tribe Called quest were unique in that they were one of the first rap acts to rhyme over jazz breaks and the shit was tight.

vainandy said:

The mere fact that you don't know that "rap" is separate from "hip-hop" is why you're even at this dilemma.

vainandy said:

Kurtis Blow was rap and part of the rap pioneering sect.

True Hip-Hop Headz know the difference between rap and hip-hop.

Hammer = Rap.
De La Soul = Hip Hop.

Black Eyed Peas = Rap.
The Jungle Brothers = Hip Hop.

L'Trimm = Rap.
Nikki D = Hip Hop.

JJ Fad = Rap.
Lady of Rage = Hip Hop.

phunkdaddy said:

You just totally described how I always felt about Hammer's show. I loved his dancing but his shows always just felt like the circus came to town. I agree with pretty much everything else there too, but still, he was a great dancer.

Now, you know I could care less about the rhymes. My main concern is the sound behind the rhymes. Since none of them can sing or play instruments and they just absolutely have to rap over someone else's records, at least Hammer's choice of samples were better than most of the others and the tempo was not slowed down.

Ass shakin' is the only thing that matters when it comes to music....well, sex also. I don't buy music to hear some boring ass poetry. You know me, if you can't shake ass to a song, whether it be disco, funk, house, or rap....the song has no purpose whatsoever of being made and should be banned from radio before it can contaminate other artists.

As the old male chauvanists used to say...."A woman is only good for two things...the kitchen and the bedroom". Well, I have an old saying about music....."Music is only good for two things....the dancefloor and the bedroom". All the other shit should be in smokey poetry clubs with folks wearing black turtlenecks, shades, and beating on tom toms slowly....not on records.

OK, well it looks like I was absolutely correct when I asked the difference between rap and shit hop.....

Rap = Funky
Shit Hop = Boring

Now I won't feel like I'm insulting great artists like The Egyptian Lover when I use the term shit hop. The Egyptian Lover wouldn't apply to that category.

vainandy said:

Exactly, Egyptian Lover is simply rap. So you're more into the era of rap in its early beginnings than the hardcore/conscious rappers like ATCQ, De La, Nas, Talib, Mos Def, and such.

The L.A. Dream Team, L'Trimm, JJ Fad, Hammer, Egyptian Lover, Sexual Harrassment, and the like is more your speed.

Hell yeah. Folks like....

The Egyptian Lover
Soul Sonic Force
Twilight 22
Divine Sounds
The LA Dream Team
Pretty Tony
Freestyle
Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
Whodini
Run DMC
Kurtis Blow
The 2 Live Crew
The Dogs
Gigolo Tony
2 In A Room
Musto and Bones
Mr. Lee
Sir Mix-A-Lot
Newcleus
Wuff Ticket
Felix and Jarvis
Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde
UTFO
Roxanne Shante
The Real Roxanne
The Sequence
The Sugarhill Gang
The Megatrons
J.J. Fad
Technotronic
Afro-Rican
MC Shy D

I honestly don't see the difference though since they are all rapping and none of them are singing. The only difference I see is, a lot of what you consider to be "rappers" are capable of coming up with their own original music and melodies rather than simply relying on a sample. Having said that, "rappers" are definately more talented than "shit hoppers".
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[Edited 9/5/07 10:15am]

MuthaFunka said:

now he is overexposed and no one ever says anything about it. he can multitask unecessarily and no comments on it. he just does too much stuff that has no impact except him keeping his face out there. but I do commend him for making music fun. but the gangsta rap one minute, then r&b rap, then singing come on, I like his business persona a lot though it leaves a legacy to be learned from and he has been one of the few to make it happen and gain respect.

vainandy said:

Good ole vainy! I aint mad at ya. We like what we like, and that's all there is to it and all that matters in the end.

chewwsey said:

Now, as a businessman, he gets nothing but major props from me. He's a perfect model for up-and-coming biz whizzes.

MuthaFunka said:

true indeed. he has the look of a businessman who can take hip hop and make it look like business and I just have nothing but respect for him. I cannot think of anyone else who can do that. he has the whole package. he just looks like a businessman who has done his homework.

vainandy said:

Well vain i respect your perspective but the sugarhill gang were probably the first to rhyme over a sample. Rapper's Delight was taken from chic's good times. What was original about the sugarhill gang? The 2 live crew borrowed from mass production's firecracker for me so horny. The majority of rappers basically sample music in their songs. The difference is rap originated as a form or speech. It wasn't about how fast the music is. I don't care how good the music is, if the rap is lame(a la hammer) rap fans including an old schooler like me just not interested. Rap originated from walking across the stage blessing the mike with hot rhymes and holding your dick.

MuthaFunka said:

I second this. I think it was around 97 that the music REALLY started going downhill.

I understand that The Sugarhill Gang and 2 Live Crew used samples. When I said that a lot of rappers made original music, I was referring to people like The Egyptian Lover, Twilight 22, Freestyle, Pretty Tony, Divine Sounds, etc. I wasn't referring to the entire list.

I still have more respect for the groups back then that used samples than the groups of the 1990s or today because of their choice of samples and the fact that they didn't slow the tempo down. If anything, back then, it was the opposite, they speeded the tempo up. I understand that a lot of the emphasis in rap is placed on the lyrics. However, if it's going to be considered music, then it needs to be something enjoyable that can fit in and be played alongside of other music on the radio. In the 1980s, if a rap record wasn't a fun danceable tempo as the funk jams of the day, it didn't get played on the radio because it didn't fit in with that format of music. Speaking of rap and music, the most popular version of "Planet Rock" was the nine minute instrumental version. Everything was about music back then, whether it was a rap record or a funk record, it had to be funky and if it wasn't, it didn't get played. That's how it should have been and that's how it should have remained.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, someone like MC Hammer, regardless of how simple or weak his lyrics may be, will fit in much better between jammin' folks like Midnight Star or The Dazz Band, because of the tempo of his music behind his lyrics. I don't even hear his lyrics or pay any attention to them whatsoever. All I hear when I hear a song is the music because that's what makes my ass wanna shake. Someone like these present day rappers or even the rappers from the 1990s would sound totally out of place between someone like Midnight Star or The Dazz Band because the music behind their lyrics is so slow and what's worse, totally stripped down to a casio keyboard sounding beat. Shit hoppers are so much into lyrics and don't care about music. Just listening to lyrics without good music behind them, to me, would be like listening to a lecture and I've always been one to get bored and pace at things like lectures and sermons. Hell, make it interesting. Entertain me dammitt!

Don't get me wrong. I'm fine with people making different types of music that I don't like. However, they need to remain on their own stations and not be played on the same stations with jams. If a rapper can actually jam, then play him on the same stations with funk, disco, house, or whatever. But if he can't jam, he needs to be played on a station with other boring folks like himself where they have their own little tired audience and the do their thing and we do our thing. When you throw these two genres together on the same stations, someone is going to eventually dominate the other. In shit hop's case, "cheap" is going to always win. I had the same problem with Shitney Houston because she should have been played on adult contemporary radio where she couldn't be a threat. However, she wasn't cheap though so she was only a minor threat compared to these shit hoppers.

I'm all for live and let live but these motherfuckers haven't let anyone live. Their record labels have stomped anything out that even resembles a fun funky party. When you end my party, I become furious and am not one to sit quiet about it.

Yeah, I'm going to throw racism into it also. I do find it racist that stations would play shit hop, funk, adult contemporary, or anything else that is made by a black artist all together on the same station simply because they are all black. I guarantee that you will never hear Motley Crue and Merle Haggard played alongside each other on white stations.

Whew.....these damn shit hoppers done got my blood pressure up in here. Uh....somebody bring me my medicine bottle. Have I taken my pill yet? Well, hell, bring me my geritol then. I done got fired up in here.
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[Edited 9/5/07 23:15pm]