I think by now everybody knows the story of the original members of the Supremes, the one girl group that surpassed the Shirelles and early Motown girl group the Marvelettes to become the top all-female group of all time for decades. But it's not about their musical accomplishments or what they attempted to achieve socially beyond what people think black women should be portrayed.

I'm guilty of knowing about the gossip hearing about Diane's bad behavior towards her band mates and other Motown alumnus, Mary's cutesy behavior and her annoyance to problems concerning her two friends, and Flo's sad descent to alcohol and depression after being dumped by the very group she founded in 1959.

But I feel that for a brief time between 1963 and 1967, the Supremes represented what could've been had the civil rights movement was able to accomplish the mission of having one of America's largest minority groups to be accepted as first-class citizens.

I sometimes remarked in another board that sometimes they get too much credit but now that I think about it, the Supremes did go farther than black female entertainers were able to go during that tense period in the sixties. Much has been talked about their drama but before it, these three young black women from Detroit's Brewster projects were able to polish from streetwise kids to a refined group of ladies that used the power of the classic pop/soul song to touch audiences in America, Europe and Asia.

In response, they alongside Dionne Warwick were really the first group of black women who were globally accepted all around the world blurring the age groups where their early hits were favorable to youngsters, their later performances at middle-of-the-road clubs like the Copacabana endeared them to older crowds.

However, it seems this has also been criticized as Berry Gordy is often the guy who is blamed for making a group initially known for creating great R&B music into a group that by the late-sixties had attracted a huge white following thanks to TV specials and appearances at cabaret venues in Las Vegas. Yet the Supremes did break the mold though and after their success, the Temptations, the Four Tops and the Jackson 5 were able to achieve similar success.

The Supremes, like all of the original 1959-1972 label roster of Motown, are an integral part of black history and yet they're more known for their gossiping and feuds and bittersweet memories of days gone by in a subpar musical that didn't really get a clue.

I guess my real question is, you can see I'm rambling here, do you think the Supremes get the props they deserved for what they were able to do? Or do you think it's overvalued?

Y'all wanna get away from the Jackson/Madonna topics, come here and let's talk!

I still think they are not given the value they should have. They are, imo, at the same level of importance as The Beatles. They were the first female group to be "massive".

I don't think The Supremes are mainly remembered for their feuding and whatnot. Sure, that's something that is often discussed when talking about them, but most people i've come across mainly know them for their music. I mean really, who hasn't heard of a Supremes song? And aren't they the biggest selling female group of all time? They definitly get recogniton-Well Diana does at least anyway .

You know the funniest thing about the Supremes and other girl groups, people like to claim either TLC or Destiny's Child or the Dixie Chicks are the best-selling girl group yet the Supremes are the only ones to boast that they have 12 number-one American pop hits. Commercially if we were to look at the Supremes records, I say they were probably the most successful all-female group in terms of what their singles did and their worldwide fan base. Socially, the Supremes were the only three women that were able to truly compete with what was going on in '60s rock.

Cinnamon234 said:

Well they were known for their drama, I just feel it's on par with the good side of their story. And yeah I noticed Diane getting recognition. Honestly, I have the Supremes of all the eras of the group don't get full recognition. Especially the Supremes after Diane and Flo left.

I also think what they accomplished between 1970 and 1977 (when the group finally broke up) was amazing. How many groups after a seminal original leaves have as much success as the Supremes did after the departures of Diane and Flo?

Their last top 40 pop hit was in 1976! How many girl groups have fourteen years of charted singles? Maybe the Pointer Sisters and Labelle but that's about it.
[Edited 8/20/07 17:24pm]

Timmy84 said:

Isn't that because Motown releases weren't certified by the RIAA? Or something like that...

Timmy84 said:

The only reason The Supremes aren't considered the best selling female group is because Motown didn't rerally keep track of those things back then, didn't have RIAA are nothing.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Syncronicity of posts....spooky!

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I agree. Just wonder how things would've been if Motown had allowed the RIAA to audit sales? They had like nine top ten albums and two number-one albums in the US and they said that each of those albums sold over millions of copies but we won't know that since Motown is still slow in auditing.

MikeMatronik said:

Even spookier ... Did you know were actually the same person.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Yes...my cover of the fanatical madonna orgers is cracking up. It's true...I listen to other artists.

Good. I posted this thread because I was tired of going to view threads discussing the same doggone person and viewing all the drama that seems to come out.

Anyway back on topic, do you think if Flo Ballard had been giving more leads that the Supremes would've been able to accomplish what it did or did Diane have the right voice for their sound as Berry infamously said?

I think Flo was a great singer though but it always has left me wondering. Of course I hear Mary and while she is a capable blues singer, she didn't seem to sing the Supremes classics well at all (case in point, I heard her perform "Bad Weather" on YouTube, it was barely audible, she ain't Jean Terrell! )

Timmy84 said:

Well that I agree with. The Supremes recorded some great songs after Diana and Flo left and that part of their career is often overlooked by the general public. Songs like "Up The Ladder To The Roof", "Thank Him For Today", "But I Love You More" "Nathan Jones" and "Stoned Love" are some of my songs by them. It's up their with any of their earlier work. The Supreme's had a long run and did very well for themselves even after Diana left, but that part of the Supremes career seems to be virtually ignored these days.

But @ you calling her Diane. You know "Ms. Ross" hates when people call her that lol.

Cinnamon234 said:

I know I'm bad. But seriously, yeah, the Supremes after the departures of Diana and Flo had a great run and yes it is sadly ignored.

You know of the eight Supremes that only Diana, Mary and Flo were inducted to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame? Shows you how Cindy Birdsong (who admittedly didn't sing on the later Diane hits) and Jean (a wonderful singer) were ignored despite them also contributing to their success. Scherrie Payne, Lynda Laurence and Susaye Greene were also great in their own right.

Or maybe it's because Flo, Diane and Mary contributed to the group's greatest success, I don't know.

Of their later records, "Nathan Jones", "Stoned Love" and "Floy Joy" were perfect retro examples of their amazing sound. "Nathan Jones", in particular, was sung by all three Supremes (Cindy, Mary and Jean). A fact I found remarkable. I also loved their "Touch" too from that period.
[Edited 8/20/07 17:49pm]
[Edited 8/20/07 17:51pm]

Timmy84 said:

Really?! I had no idea. That is really some BS. They should have been inducted in along with the other three, no question about it...And how could I have forgotten about "Floy Joy", I love that song! And I believe Smokey Robinson wrote it. He's another artist/songwriter who I think is very underrated but that's another story.

Cinnamon234 said:

Well, actually, I think the Miracles are underrated (the group is not in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame but Smokey is... )

I think Cindy and Jean at least needed to have been included. Between 1963 and 1972, the Supremes had like 32 top forty hits in nine consecutive years (that HAS to be a record somewhere, man!) and about five or six of those were from the Mary, Jean and Cindy era. I don't get that, why is Dennis Edwards inducted with the other Temptations however Cindy and Jean aren't inducted with the Supremes?

And there's only six Temptations inducted to the Hall:
Eddie Kendricks
Paul Williams
Otis Williams
David Ruffin
Melvin Franklin
Dennis Edwards

I guess the Supremes and Temptations had too many lineup changes that they went with the "chosen ones", so to speak though the Temptations have had 20 members and the Supremes eight.
[Edited 8/20/07 18:22pm]

Timmy84 said:

Nice take.

For me, these songs (and a few others i'm not recalling at the moment)...

Where Did Our Love Go
Baby Love
Come See About Me
Stop! In the Name of Love
Back In My Arms Again
Nothing But Heartaches
I Hear a Symphony
My World is Empty Without You
Love is Like an Itching In My Heart
You Can’t Hurry Love
You Keep Me Hangin’ On
Love is Here and Now You’re Gone
The Happening
Reflections (the beginning of the end of the original group)
Love Child (the end)
Up the Ladder to the Roof
Stoned Love
Nathan Jones
Floy Joy

...(and the great band that laid the tracks) will live forever as examples of great soulful/melodic music.


Dionne Warwick deserves a thread of her own for the same reason.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

She sure does.

And yes, those songs are all part of the American lexicon, those songs helped shape the future of pop music right here.

The Supremes, the Funk Brothers and Holland-Dozier-Holland were indeed a magical combination! All the songs they did during the classic period and the post-Diana Ross era were spectacular... well just a majority of them.

And a great mixture of pop (Diane's voice) and soul (Mary and Flo tearing it up in the background with their call and response vocals) were indeed unique. I think the Supremes are underrated in their vocal arrangements (I had to hear some of the tracks again with Mary, Flo and Diane and I underrated their abilities for real). The girls came straight from the school of doo-wop and it showed in all the Motown hits. The only other girl group that matched them vocally were Martha & the Vandellas followed by Labelle.
[Edited 8/20/07 19:05pm]

Cinnamon234 said:

I didn't hear about the feuding until many years later. All I know is those songs got a lot of play on the oldies stations my parent's listened to and they are still great. The early when they were The Sumpremes...all time classics!

Love them gals! Black children knew how to WORK IT OUT back then! There was a level of not simply talent, but sophistication and professionalism and self-pride back then that is sorely lacking in today's popular culture. I didn't experience The Supremes as current recording artists. But over the last decade I have bought/acquired most of their albums. There was some brilliant stuff happenning there...musically...with all the various line-ups. The Jean Terrell/Frank Wilson years rival anything Diana did with H-D-H or Ashford & Simpson. And I love the later years with Scherrie Payne when they were finally free to be a group and not "THE STAR OF THE SHOW and her back-up singers". The '60s era of the group is understandably idolized. But I don't think it's by any accident the '70s era of the group is all but erased from history. Those songs are never played on the radio. Yeah, the big hits stopped around 1972. But that in and of itself smells rather funky. The Supremes were an institution. Then all of a sudden they couldn't get a hit? Does not compute.

It wasn't until 2000 that I even learned The Supremes continued after Diana went solo. I haven't read any of the biographies/autobiographies written by/about the various members...and I probably won't. There appears to have been a lot of ugliness/tackiness going on behind the scenes. True or not, my main interest is the music. Though, I am curious to know Jean Terrell's story. She just fascinates me. Whatever "IT" is...Jean had IT. Today, 30/40+ years later, people are still interested. Them girls/women must have done something right.

But it does sadden me to see only Diana hailed as a pioneer. When someone like an Oprah Winfrey repeatedly recalls how seeing The Supremes on The Ed Sullivan Show changed her life. And throws a "Legends Ball" and invites Ashanti and Brandy but not Mary Wilson...that's atrocious. I'm not trying to take anything from Diana's legacy, but she wasn't alone.
[Edited 8/21/07 11:32am]

I have a lot of respect for The Supremes, they were the one who made Motown the legendary label it became. And inspite of the in-fighting with the group and what happened to Florence I have a lot of respect for Diana. She was no Aretha but she did have a great voice, it wasn't as strong as the likes of Aretha but it was soulful in it's own way, and I understand why Berry gave her lead instead of someone like Florence.
[Edited 8/21/07 11:31am]

Yeah I feel like the group as a whole don't get credit for being pioneers. Not taking anything away from Diane because she did wonderful things after leaving the Supremes but the Supremes were a group of three and those three that were the originals should be hailed as pioneers. I feel they don't get their respect musically at all. The Supremes are a musical institution.