EmbattledWarrior said:

That's what depigmentation is - a scientific procedure, so that's an apparent contradiction or a poor choice of words.

Rodya24 said:

I NEVER said he uses just bleaching cream, because I know myself bleaching cream alone won't make you look that white. I believe he went through depigmentation process myself and he uses makeup and some form of cream on top of it.

And I find it surprising that even Embattledwarrior doesn't believe those children are MJ biological children. There are too many coincidences here; this is someone who has obviously had surgery to erase his natural features, he then at around the same times just happens to get vitiligo and then on top all that he just happens to have at least 2 children that have no African ancestory in them at all. I mean this is someone who seems to have a problem with even having his own children that look even a "little black", if that ain't self hatred I don't know what is.

whatsgoingon said:

You have stated that you do not believe he has vitiligo. However, it is impossible to go through with the depigmentaiton process without one having vitiligo -- what EmbattledWarrior and I have been arguing all along. So, how can you believe he went through with the depigmentation process?

As for his children, I thought this thread was on his skin color. I have no idea if the two eldest are his biological children. To be honest, I do not care. All I care about is whether or not MJ is a good father -- and even those who have labeled or painted him as a pedophile (Martin Bashir) have admitted that he is a good father to his children.

Najee said:

thats a procedure that quickens the pace of a disease you already must have. don't twist my words around.

Rodya24 said:

Michael Jackson's children were brought up as another example of his issues with his apparance and the acceptance of Caucasians as his standard of beauty. More particularly, the fact that a black man is willing to lie to the world that he fathered three evidently Caucasian children rather than either admit he adopted them or to actually father his own children suggests he's got racial issues.

I didn't need court records to know that MJ was not the father of those first two children -- but the fact he actually believes he did father those children underscores how prevalent his racial issues in his personal life are.

EmbattledWarrior said:

I would suggest stating that clearly to where no one would question it.
[Edited 8/21/07 8:42am]

Rodya24 said:

[quote:a402f64aed]

whatsgoingon said:

[quote:a402f64aed]

I NEVER said he uses just bleaching cream, because I know myself bleaching cream alone won't make you look that white. I believe he went through depigmentation process myself and he uses makeup and some form of cream on top of it.

And I find it surprising that even Embattledwarrior doesn't believe those children are MJ biological children. There are too many coincidences here; this is someone who has obviously had surgery to erase his natural features, he then at around the same times just happens to get vitiligo and then on top all that he just happens to have at least 2 children that have no African ancestory in them at all. I mean this is someone who seems to have a problem with even having his own children that look even a "little black", if that ain't self hatred I don't know what is.[/quote:a402f64aed]

Apparently you can go through the depigmentation process without having vitiligo it's just that the results will not be the same.

And the reason we bring up his children is because it's part and parcel of the same thing that led him to do the surgery in the first place. It's about his own self-hatred. If he says he adopted the children then that fine, but if he is pretending that he is biologically the father to children that are obviously not his, it just goes to show how deep-seated his hatred for his own self is. I mean he marries a surrogate so he can be legally be called the father of children that are not biologically his. Out of all the things that I have a view about I hope out of all them I wrong about him Not being the biological father of those children, because that to me runs deeper than him just not wanting to be black.

You have stated that you do not believe he has vitiligo. However, it is impossible to go through with the depigmentaiton process without one having vitiligo -- what EmbattledWarrior and I have been arguing all along. So, how can you believe he went through with the depigmentation process?

As for his children, I thought this thread was on his skin color. I have no idea if the two eldest are his biological children. To be honest, I do not care. All I care about is whether or not MJ is a good father -- and even those who have labeled or painted him as a pedophile (Martin Bashir) have admitted that he is a good father to his children.[/quote:a402f64aed]

whatsgoingon said:

At some point, the reasons Michael Jackson has for doing things come across more as rationalizations that don't fully explain his actions. The nose jobs and other surgical procedures, his so-called marriages, the children he "fathered," etc., point to a man who sees Caucasians as the standard of beauty he wishes to emulate.

whatsgoingon said:

I am going to quote Embattled Warrior on the definition of depigmentation: "a process that quickens that pace of a disease you already must have."

I do not understand your reasoning, when the scientific evidence proves that a person will die of toxin poisoning within several weeks if he or she does not have vitiligo and undergoes depigmentation. Meaning: Michael Jackson has vitiligo and underwent depigmentation over a decade ago. I am NOT going to argue with you on this point ANY longer.

As for this debate on whether or not he is an embodiment of black self-hatred, I am not going to become involved. When I listen to his music, I do not sit and wonder: "Is this the person an embodiment of black self-hatred? Are his children REALLY his biological children?" Perhaps you and others do. I do not. Then again, when I look at a Leonardo DaVinci painting, I do not condemn or judge him for having been a pedophile (proven, in this case). I admire him for his work, not for his personal life.

Rodya24 said:

OK, I'm lost here. If Michael Jackson can die from toxin poisoning if he underwent depigmentation as an undiagnosed patient, how does vitiligo seemingly protect him from certain death under this procedure? Especially if anything, vitiligo makes one possibly more sensitive to sunlight?

Rodya24 said:

When I see Michael Jackson I see an incredibly talented young man who has become a tragic figure of Shakespearian proportions. It's practically impossible to look at him and not think of how he is ridiculed and scorned in part because of a quest to make himself look like something he is not.
[Edited 8/21/07 9:22am]

Najee said:

I agree. This is not about an odd nose job or marrying a white woman or two..This is about a series of things that just make you want to ask him "is being black that bad" and it's the reason why he has lost so much respect over the years. And for black people after all our struggles to see a black person of such magnitude to go to such extremes to distance himself from his race, physically it's like a slap in the face. I don't expect someone that is not black to understand, but I can understand why many people out there do not respect him much inspite of his great talent.

whatsgoingon said:

Exactly, it's one thing to have a few family members tease you about your nose and then you later break it in an accident. It's another leap of faith to get your nose altered to look like an obviously Caucasian-inspired one and claim "I did it to sing better."

That's why people are skeptical of MJ and call BS on his skin condition because he typically gives BS reasons for these type of events. Even if it is true he has vitiligo, MJ has done enough of this in the past and in subsequent actions to cause people not to believe him. Furthermore, the surgeries, possibly the skin color, the marriages and the "children" all lead to the same commonality -- beauty and appearance based on a Caucasian standard.
[Edited 8/21/07 11:01am]

whatsgoingon said:

Preaching the truth

i think its time to heed your own advice kid, Just letitgo, Whatever will be will be.
[Edited 8/21/07 10:02am]

EmbattledWarrior said:

I see no point in futher getting involved in threads on his appearance and personal life. I should not have started in the first place. Should stick with his music and performance. Even threads comparing him to Madonna tend to be more enlightening.

Rodya24 said:

lol if not enlightening at least entertaining, this is just painstakingly droll

Najee said:

I completely agree.It would be easier for many of us to accept the vitiligo story if Michael hadn't done all those other questionable things to alter his appearance.It's time for his fans to stop being in denial: Michael clearly has a problem with being black.He had plastic surgery to remove all of his African American features.He got married twice,both times to a white woman.His three children aren't black at all.He has altered his appearance to the point where he now looks like an old white woman.When he announced,in 1992,that he has vitiligo,I thought "how convenient....now he can really look the way he always wanted to look"

SoulAlive said:

The point im making has nothing to do with MJ denying his heritage.
I don't care about that anymore.
What i'm trying to say it is not possible for a man to go from black to white without having a said disease.
I have medical books, theirs no cases. No form of artifical Plastic Surgery can remove your skin color.
Skin Creams often promise this, but they only are able to stop the melanin process for an immediate amount of time. Can't be done permanently.
On vitiligo patients these creams have the opposite affect.
Since the patient melanin production has been stopped the skin can't return back to the natural color.
Even did hate being black, their is no way he could permanently do it!
IE
Lil kim lightened her skin using creams and became rather light, but three monthes down the line she returned back to her normal color.
So theirs no if ands or buts about it
Michael Jackson does have Vitiligo.
Maybe he wanted the disease,
Also janet Has vitiligo, on her feet, so does latoya.
It is a hereditary disease,thier grandfatrher had it.
simple enough.
Maybe they do hate being black, i can't speak against that.
But science says they do.
if you wanna go against science you might as well go to Politics and religion and mingle with the nutjobs round there.
Thats all i have to say.
Peace
[Edited 8/22/07 3:05am]

EmbattledWarrior said:

This has been a really good debate, with very balanced points on both sides.

But you lost me with the authoritative tone on the girls' vittiligo...I was curious if you had any proof of this...

Ottensen said:

Well according to Latoya she once said that there was "no such disease" in her family, meaning that Michael was lying about the disease and as someone said Jermaine wrote a song about Michael changing his colour "Word to Bad". When you get family members contradicting what MJ himself as said, what do you expect the rest of us to think.

Ottensen said:

use to be sites(might still be, but this was years ago) about it thats how i know.
Janet has vitiligo type A, which is only sectional, just around her feet so it didn't really disrupt her lifestyle. That type doesn't spread, and can be covered easily with makeup.
Latoya might have it, its just a rumour tho, no exact confirmation.
I think latoyas light skinned and people get confused and think she has it.
(if you ask me shes the real one who doesnt want to be black)
But Janet has spoken bout it, i read it A looooong time ago.
Its really sad.
Especially in michaels case, because they are always belitlling his downess. and he tries to be down and gets hurt in the process...
I mean even his own family used it against him. When michael didn't want to help randy and the rest of those (Nation of Islam) cats. Thats the first thing they went for i quote "You aint down, you down with the jews" his own flesh and blood, thats some sad shit. He had to meet up with his brother in front of his mother cause he thought they were going to beat him up if he rejected the idea.
Sometimes it aint cool to be down.
cause being down, leads to you being broke or sometimes dead.
Let the individual preach.

whatsgoingon said:

C'mon you know that wasn't Latoya talkin, that was Gordon. after she left gordon she retracted everything she said many times. Michael forgave her two years ago. But they didn't speak for years.
Shit even if he didn't have the disease and was possibly molester. you don't go against the blood. That was wrong.
As for jermaine i never got the skin reference ive read the lyrics 20Xs
but even if it was true, he probably didn't know about it.
You gotta remember the siblings were pretty disconnected at that time.

EmbattledWarrior said:

I apologize for interjecting in a discussion that I promised myself to ignore. But you are right. Not only has Latoya retracted the statements that she made while married to her abusive husband, but Jermaine has said on Big Brother (a couple of years ago) that his brother, Michael, has a skin disease. Moreover, during the time the song "Word to the Bad" was released, Michael and Jermaine did not have a good relationship. In fact, there is a letter of apology from Jermaine to Michael that is on sale (one of the countless items on sale at the Las Vegas auction), and a letter of acceptance from Michael to Jermaine.

EmbattledWarrior said:

If Latoya actually had the disease herself there was no point in her saying anything in the first place. And even though Latoya has a motormouth some of the things she has said have turned out to be true. You remember the time she went round saying that Janet and Renee were married whilst Janet and Renee were denying it, well she was right all along-they had been married for almost 10 yrs..so Janet ain't above telling a little white lie here and there, either on behalf of herself or family.

And quite frankly if Michael vitiligo was that obvious I find unbelievable that his own brother wouldn't of known about it.

I am sorry there are too many inconsistencies and coincidences for me personally to take the vitiligo seriously.

whatsgoingon said:

whatsgoingon said:

she might have it, its a rumour, i never said positively she did, READ my posts
And do you know the family your talking about?
this is the Jackson family,
probably the most dysfunctional family on the planet.
Im positive jermaine didn't know about it. and if he did, he said what he said specifically to hurt MJ.
I think you just don't want to believe it man.
you have other priorities
face facts, skin bleaching is a fairy tale

Rodya24 said:

Well if jermaine said it on big brother, throws the whole word to the badd thing out.
cause he probably didn't know about it.
Im sure michael fucked him over a few times.
Back when you had to penn an apointment tos peak to your own brother...
Michael was/still on some shit....

EmbattledWarrior said:

What your saying still doesn't make sense, you yourself have just said that more than one member of the family has it now, so quite frankly I think Jermaine would have known about it. And although they were not in good terms at one time I am sure Jermaine has spent more with Michael up close than anyone on this board for him to know whether his brother has a disease well before 1993, I mean he even slept over night with him in hospital at one time well after 1984 and well before he wrote that song "Word to Bad"

EmbattledWarrior said:

Both have fucked each other more than once. Ah brotherly love...

I'm sorry,but the Jackson family has zero credibility when it comes to things like this.They're notorious for keeping secrets,twisting facts and outright lying.Janet was married for 11 years and lied about it.LaToya wrote a book that was filled with "facts" that other family members disputed.Michael himself has lied about how many surgeries he's had.

If you wanna prove that MJ has a skin disease,you'll need more reliable sources than that family!